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Would You Fly Over the Sierras in an RV-12 ?

johnr9q

Member
Would you feel safe Flying the RV-12 over the California Sierra through a 9000 foot pass and spend 45 minutes in the death zone where there is no place to land that wouldn't turn out very bad?
 
Same risk as in any other single engine aircraft.
Alex

Sorry Alex but I must disagree with you.

Speed, height of flight, and rate of climb are all big factors here. Not all single engine aircraft are equal to the RV 12 in these areas.

I used to fly a 1948 Stinson over the Sierras, now fly the RV 10.

The Stinson performance was a lot closer to the RV 12, and although I never really felt unsafe in it, I sure do feel safer in the RV 10.
 
I may be reading something into this post that is not there, but before I had ever flown over the Sierra I had some concerns about it. I was coming from an Aircoupe that could barely manage a 500fpm climb and I was unwilling to take that into the mountains, although many friends had taken even lesser performing airplanes higher and further.

Ultimately it comes down to your confidence in the airplane. There are two issues as I see it. Performance and reliability. Will the plane climb, both to get you to altitude and to deal with possible downdrafts or mountain waves? More importantly, do you trust it?

I think ultimately what will help with the decision is simply time spent in the aircraft exploring what it can do and having many hours of trouble free service. Then you'll trust it and want to start taking it and yourself on more extended adventures.
 
Same risk as in any other single engine aircraft.
Alex
If you are referring to survivability, I have to disagree.
My LSA has a BRS (ballistic recovery system . . . or parachute).
I would rather take my chances with that.
 
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wind and vis

I do the Sierra crossing a bit. From Northern AZ to Sacramento for work.
The plane is not the issue... it's the weather. On a severe clear day, I find it fun to cross. I do it quite high, to allow for bailout turns. I crossed in a V tail one day and no wind was forecast. Hit sink rate of 1800 fpm down with no hint of turbulence. Made my bailout turn back to Bishop. That day, I ended up going around the south via Bakersfield. A local was trying to tell me where all the passes were, to slip through. I declined.
When they did the Steve Fossett accident investigation they found that most single engine planes would not have out climbed the sink rates.
If you have oxygen and perfect weather, climb up and enjoy the view.
Allow time for plan B. If you get boxed in by a schedule, it can hurt you.
To give examples, I have crossed in the RV9A, Bonanza, C210, Luscombe 8E, Mooney etc.
Over 32 years in my present location and I have a list of friends who did not make it. One particularly good pilot with a C185. Quite a good climber but he pushed it too hard one day and paid the price. Before Arizona, I flew for a living in the Alaska Bush. Same equation there. Nice day.... any old plane will do. Bad day, you better have a 737 with a HUD display. Best of luck.
 
I flew across the mountains from Montana to Seattle, and then from southern California back across toward the east heading back to Florida last year in my RV-6.

Pick the day with nice weather, and you're no more or less safe than most other single-engine planes.
 
Pic

I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of the area you guys are referring to. All we got here in the southeast is pine trees, cell towers, and pine trees.
 
Yes. Small aircraft statistically are risky forms of transportation regardless.

I flew an Aircoupe from Sacramento to Oshkosh (and back), and several times to the Seattle area and Arizona. Mountainous terrain along the routes. You can reduce the risk by playing connect-the-dots with airports, and use the XAvion app. Plan your stops, but be prepared to put down at an airport anytime you don't like the weather. There are a few airports along the Interstate 80 corridor, and the freeway itself. Get oxygen, fly higher so you have more airports within reach.

The poor climb rate and performance of the Coupe is the main reason I'm building an RV-9A. An RV-12 would be fantastic compared to the Coupe and many other models of single-engine airplanes that cross the Sierras and Rockies all the time.
 
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sounds like the biggest problem would be unanticipated downdrafts. Can these be predicted by keeping an eye on weather forecasts or can they occur in any weather? If you flew the RV-12 as high as it could fly would it be able to overcome these downdrafts? Sorry about the naive questions but I am not a pilot, just looking into an RV-12. I would fly the I80 corridor and there is an airport in Truckee and Blue Canyon. If I had engine failure would I be able to make these airports if I was flying at 12,000 feet?
 
I know a gentleman that has taken his RV12 above 16000 feet. Legally. With video and data proof. And it was still climbing. A few details.

An LSA has a regulatory ceiling of 10,000 MSL -- OR --- 2000 AGL. (CLARIFICATION - for Sport Pilot, see below)
So if you can find a good mountain, you can be up to 2000 feet above it legally.

He waited for good weather, took oxygen and a saturation meter.

Achieved 16207 feet and was still climbing. was less than gross weight.
Has all the Density altitude/true altitude flight logs and calcs.

Time to climb SL to 10,000 ft was 14 minutes.
10 - 12 K was 5 min.
12-16 K was 24 minutes.
15 to 16 K was 8 minutes.
He feels that 17500 was achievable but could have taken another 20 minutes at less than Vy.
 
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I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of the area you guys are referring to. All we got here in the southeast is pine trees, cell towers, and pine trees.

These will give you an idea of what they are talking about. I live at the base of the Sierra Mountains and they should be respected but the scenery is unparalleled.

https://www.google.com/search?q=sierra+nevada+mountains+pictures&client=opera&hs=p9M&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=LmXqVP36G5OGNrKigLAK&ved=0CB8QsAQ
 
VFR in the mountains...Worth what you paid for it

I learned to fly in the late '60s in the Fraser Valley near Vancouver BC. Although there were mountains all around us, most flying was over the flood plain. I never really learned to navigate because I always knew where I was just by looking outside. Although I had intended to go commercial, life got in the way and I went on to do other things...

Fast forward 20 years and my new wife was silly enough to re-kindle my interest in aviation. After a bit of re-training, a typical mission profile involved flying a rental 172 from the interior of British Columbia to the Pacific coast. This involved crossing the Coast Range, with numerous 8,000'+ rocks sticking up. In good weather it was a breeze, 10,500 ft direct, not a problem. As often happens on the west coast, ceilings were often lower, which meant flying the passes.

On a couple of occasions while flying the passes on a windy day, we encountered some pretty good turbulence (enough to tip us up on one wing), and some interesting sink that we managed to fly through before it got dangerous. Hmmm, maybe I need to know more. Who best to learn from??

It just happens that there is a large glider club situated on the West side of the Coast Range at Hope BC. Now those guys deliberately go and play around the big rocks on a windy day, in fact they pray for wind. The light bulb lit up..

Lessons were available so I told them what I was trying to learn and over about 5 lessons learned a lot about lift, sink and turbulence in the mountains. Heck my wife even took a few lessons and enjoyed it immensely. The objective was to learn, not to get a glider licence, although that was tempting.

Just to show that some of the glider tricks might be useful to us power guys, here's a little story of our last glider lesson trip.

We took off early morning from Penticton BC in a C172 with 4 souls on board. Our rate of climb was about 200' / min and it took us roughly 30 miles to get enough altitude to climb out of the valleys. Pretty normal for a 172.

We were lucky enough to arrive in Hope BC with a reasonable wind from the west. Too long ago to remember how much. My glider lesson included S turns in a mountain bowl with climb rates in excess of 1000 fpm.

At the end of the day we all climbed back into the 172 for the trip home. Hmmm, the bowl was empty of gliders. I took the 172 into the bowl, did 3 S turns climbing at 1800 fpm and was headed home...

A few things I learned:
- wind doesn't strictly blow up one side of a mountain and down the other. It forms waves like a rock in a river. If you're in sink, move over a few hundred feet and you'll probably find lift...
- keep a sense of wind direction at mountain top level. You can do this by watching your drift. Stay away from the lee side.
- if the wind at mountain top level is greater than 20 kts, it can be nasty if you're close..
- glaciers create sink downslope
- check out Sparky Imeson's books, though some of them will scare you...http://www.mountainflying.com/
- take a mountain flying course
- if "mountain wave" is forecast in the big rocks, think seriously before you launch!
- some people prefer to follow roads. In many cases you can cut corners.

Almost everywhere we go is in the mountains. Be careful and have fun learning...

I would not hesitate to take an RV-12, a Piper J3 or anything else into the mountains. Just learn the capabilities of yourself and the airplane and fly within them.

Black Tusk near Whistler BC...

 
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Mike S.,

Would you feel safer or less at risk in a Cessna 172? I think there has been a few of those that have crossed the Sierra chain successfully in the recent past :)

If I recall correctly, the performance numbers for the -12 are equal to or better than a 172, icluding its rate of climb and service cieling.

Alex
 
To better answer your questions

sounds like the biggest problem would be unanticipated downdrafts. Can these be predicted by keeping an eye on weather forecasts or can they occur in any weather?
If you flew the RV-12 as high as it could fly would it be able to overcome these downdrafts?


Sorry about the naive questions but I am not a pilot, just looking into an RV-12. I would fly the I80 corridor and there is an airport in Truckee and Blue Canyon. If I had engine failure would I be able to make these airports if I was flying at 12,000 feet?


Downdrafts are usually related to strong winds, sinking air below a glacer etc. There is a reason for them. Learning to fly and taking a mountain course will answer these questions...

There are downdrafts created by mountain wave that very few aircraft can outclimb, unless you're flying something like an F16... When you learn about them you will know to stay on the ground when they are forecast... Mountain waves occur because of very high winds aloft. Investigating this would be part of your pre-flight planning.

Regarding your route, I just looked this up on the map... Keep in mind I have never having flown this route...

On a calm day, this looks like it could be flown at any altitude you are comfortable with, from 1000' over the highway on up. Heck it looks like there's pavement (potential runway) all the way...

On a moderately windy day I would like to be at least 2000' above the mountain tops... You can still follow the road...

On a day when mountain wave was forecast, I would stay home and have a beer so as not to second guess my decision...

You might want to consider taking a couple of flying / gliding lessons in a mountainous area, and getting your instructor to explain some of the mysteries... Another option might be to hook up with one of the RVers in your area and do some exploring. Check out a local EAA chapter... That might help with your comfort level...

Good luck with your quest...
 
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An LSA has a regulatory ceiling of 10,000 MSL -- OR --- 2000 AGL.
So if you can find a good mountain, you can be up to 2000 feet above it legally.

Correction.... A pilot flying under a Sport Pilots license is regulated by these limits.
If a light sport aircraft is being piloted by an private pilot, he can go to 17,999 (as long as he meets the oxygen requirements).
 
Many of the airports in Colorado start out higher than the passes in the Sierra's. I have never flown in an RV-12 but considered it real hard before deciding on the 9A. I have flown out of Aspen, Rifle, and Glenwood Springs in the 9A with no issues.

I would be real interested in stories from guys flying into and out of the high altitude airports in the 12. I am happy with my choice, but still like the 12!
 
No reason not to go if weather is OK, and you respect the mountains.
Local instructor that give mountain flying courses is Bill Schroeder. CFII, flight examiner and a great guy.
David
Carson City, NV
 
I don't like flying routes that don't allow a Plan B in any airplane. I used to fly my Cherokee between Phoenix and San Diego monthly for my Navy Reserve weekend. Most of the time I ended up flying that 40 mile stretch of mountains east of San Diego in the dark. It was always with the knowledge that a forced landing was probably going to result in the loss of the plane and a high probability of serious injury or death. I didn't dwell on it, but it was always in the back of my mind. After retiring from the reserves I never flew that route again at night.
 
Would you feel safe Flying the RV-12 over the California Sierra through a 9000 foot pass and spend 45 minutes in the death zone where there is no place to land that wouldn't turn out very bad?

I spent a lot of time the last 2-3 years before we moved east flying over the Sierras in a lot of different airplanes. To answer the OP's original question, yes I would do it, with some considerations.

This is purely my experience and some of my considerations when I was out there, standby for free advice.

Flying the Sierras is a lot of fun, but must be respected. If you haven't done much mountain flying, read up on it. A quick search here will yield you some good info and good books to read.

Some of my personal rules to live by...

Never point at anything you're not already above. If climb performance is in question, be well above (1.5x the height of the obstacle) before you push across.

Don't descend into anything you're not familiar with. Sight seeing can be enticing, and yes I've gone raging down some ravines with marginal clearance on either side at full tilt. That said I knew it was down hill the whole way, opened out up into a valley, and there were no obstructions like bridges/powerlines/etc. Going down to take a peek at whatever is not worth getting boxed in without the climb and turn performance to go back up. You can see it just fine from where you are unless you can see how you're going to get out or back up before you descend.

Stay on the down wind side of any canyon, if you need to turn around making the 180 into the wind will reduce your radius of turn. Get comfortable max performing the airplane. Minimum radius, max performance climbing turns, min radius turns, etc. Speed is life, pay attention to it. Spot landings, crosswind landings, short runways, all at once. Be comfortable with them. Not aircraft carrier capable, just know that you may have to land at a 3-4K' strip that's 40' wide with a gusty crosswind.

Have an out... or a plan. You don't need to have an airport in gliding distance, but have a road, forestry trail, something. If the worst happens these airplanes land slow enough that as long as you're under control when you come down the speeds are slow enough that it will most likely be survivable. There are a lot of places in the Sierras above the tree line with large flat rock areas that you could set down on, and probably not break the plane. That said, you'll probably break the airplane. You accepted that risk when you took off. You're just looking for a place to survive.

Tell someone you're going, exactly where you'll be and when, and tell them when you arrive. Don't plan on flight following, radar coverage isn't great. Don't deviate from that plan, if you're hurt or incapacitated the fastest way to get rescued is for them to know exactly where you were. Have 121.5 tuned up somewhere ready to go, and know your location. There's a lot of airline/military traffic in the area monitoring and if you can get out a quick mayday XX miles on a 123 bearing from XYZ airport, the word will get passed.

Stay with the airplane, unless there are bears. Then just hope you can outrun your passengers.

Dress to egress. If you land on one of those dirt roads and the plane catches fire, what you have on you is all you've got. You make look like a dork getting into your airplane when it's 75 in the valley wearing boots/jeans/jacket/etc but when you're climbing out of your burning wreckage at 9000' you're probably spending the night, and it's going to be cold. If the plane survives with all your stuff, bonus. The best two things you can have on you are a knife, a lighter, and a mirror. I can tell you from experience, you can see a survival mirror from a long way off (hundred miles in some cases). Use the knife to whittle a new airplane while you wait next to the fire you started with the lighter.

Do not, Do Not, DO NOT attempt to scud run. If you're facing a low ceiling and you can't see under it all the way across, stay out of it. Period.

Most importantly... know what the winds aloft are doing. Anything over 10-15 knots is going to be bumpy, over 20 you're going to get wave action that you may not be able to out climb (but remember what goes down comes back up, and vice versa, with some experience you'll learn to use it to your advantage). Anything over 25 knots aloft and you're looking at rotor activity. Read the clouds, they'll tell you a lot.
 
I dunno - I have my RV-12 prop set for in-between, and the climb performance is pretty impressive. I wouldn't play mountain flying without the appropriate safeguards, but with the 35 KIAS stall speed, ability to do a steep canyon turn on a dime, and climbs in excess of 1000 fpm pretty dang regularly, the reliability of the Rotax (2 engines in one), I feel a heck of lot safer in it than someone's beater Lycoming.

Call me biased.
 
Flew the C152 out to the salt flats from the Bay Area in July. Spent some time reading about mountain flying and taking some courses. Flew out at 11.5 and back at 10.5. It was a "I'll only do it if it's perfect" ride and it turned out to be perfect. In fact, in the desert, once past 6000 feet the air cooled and the plane climbed pretty good. I went over at Yuba pass with a large group of flyers. I'd say look for perfect weather, heed all the advice here, stay high and don't push it. It was my first trip east in the Cessna and I may do it again this year. I was tempted to come back through Ebbets pass since I'm pretty familiar with that area but I decided to play is safe as Yuba is a pretty small hope and not too much time over mountain terrain.
 
Sierra Flying

I hanger my RV-8A (Aerosport 180 HP IO-360) at Inyokern (IYK) and usually fly over the Sierra - anywhere from Walker Pass to north of Kearsarge Pass - on nearly every flight - sightseeing, monitoring snow levels and checking out areas for an annual 16+ day solo backpacking trek. One irrefutable truth - the terrain always seems smoother from altitude vice being on the ground humping a heavy backpack.

A few things I do - your methods may vary.

1) Speed/energy management is key - don't get slow. Go around a peak instead of slowing to get over it.
2) If you lose the engine you will land - somewhere. Always scan the area for the most suitable landing spot. Admittedly, sometimes that means determining the best of very bad options.
3) Approaching a ridgeline, make an early determination of whether you can clear. Be conservative - any doubt, there is no doubt.
4) If you find yourself boxed in, drop the nose, maintain control, always remain at least a micro-inch above the terrain - and bend the airplane around to escape. MAINTAIN CONTROL - and if necessary, fly into the crash.
5) Expect varying degrees of turbulence - particularly on the leeward side of passes.
6) The Sierra is home to the cumulo-granite cloud. Don't screw around going through puffies.
7) Look out for other aircraft and Park Service / Forest Service helos. They are out there nearly every day.
 
Mike S.,

Would you feel safer or less at risk in a Cessna 172?

Safer or less risk compared to what??

I have very little time in a 172.

I do have more than a few trips over the Sierras ----(I live on the western slope)-----both in the Stinson, and the RV 10.

I have had to abort a flight in the Stinson, just could not climb enough with the easterly winds----(easterly wind = headwind and downdraft on that flight), never had that issue with the 10.

As has been stated, first off consider the weather. Next consider your aircraft performance if you get it wrong about the weather.
 
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I fly my Gobosh into the Rockies out here in Colorado. I have flown it into Leadville and Buena Vista. We don't go into the mountains after lunch, or when the winds are above 10-12 kts aloft at 12000-15000. I don't feel that unsafe. I will fly the RV-12 I am building up there as well when it is finally finished. Take a mountain flying class, don't fly at gross and get over the pass early in the day.

Carl
 
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