Are any of the EFIS ecosystems well suited to incremental installations/upgrades?

I’ve been researching the major brands and I quickly saw that total cost will ultimately come out very close in a complete IFR setup. While that’s my eventual goal, I’m considering if any of the solutions suit themselves to a piecemeal installation, upgrading over time. I currently have an entirely steam gauge panel (other than a digital engine monitor) without any gyros; I’d like to perhaps add some sort of attitude source for safety at night.

Anyone here who has started out with a VFR panel and added capability over time? Was it something you would do again or just go all in at once?

Context: this is for an RV-4, so lots of room to work behind the panel and new panel blanks won’t break the bank.

I did the incremental approach on the first project (RV-8A). This was a VFR bird, but I added an electric AI. That was a mistake, this certified electric AI drifted so bad is was just one step above useless.

I replaced the AI with a Dynon D-10A. This was a real EFIS, and coupled with the Apollo GX-60 and SL-30 I had a legal IFR plane (but not IFR under my risk tolerance). The D-10A is a nice unit - I would guess however Dynon will soon come out with an updated version.

For doing an incremental approach today remember the single big ticket item is the grossly overpriced certified GPS IFR navigator (e.g. GTN-650). This is not needed for a VFR bird. I suggest a single 10” SkyView HDX with the GPS 2020 receiver/antenna, adding the SkyView ADS-B receiver and dual axis autopilot (no RV should be without an autopilot). Keep your current comm. If you do not have ADS-B out, add the SkyView XPDR. Keep you current steam gauge altimeter and airspeed for backup.

This gives you the leap to fully intergrated moving map, weather and traffic displayed on the EFIS. The gain in situational awareness is the reward.

When ready for IFR, add the overpriced GPS navigator of your choice.

One option - start wiht the smaller SkyView HDX display, add a second HDX display later. For my RV-8 I have one 10” and one 7” HDX displays - but I’m guessing your RV-4 panel is smaller.

Carl

I’d second Carl’s approach. You can start with any of the ‘mini’ efis units - a GRT mini, garmin g5, or the Dynon. Since you have nothing now, mount it right in front of you. When you’re ready for the big upgrade, get a new panel blank, re-use the mini in a back-up role. Note the ‘cost’ here is that your first time around labor is all ‘wasted’.

You could easily develop an upgrade plan with any of the major efis manufactures. I would start with what you ultimate panel to be and then figure out the phased approach to achieve you end goal.

I agree with Carl's approach, and it could be done for ~$8k, But IMHO you could start out even smaller. Replace your 6 pack with a Dynon HDX and GPS 2020. Use everything else that you have existing. (ADSB in $800, A/P add $1,500 for 2 servos, well worth it but at an added cost.

Then decide set you priorities and add ADSB in, AutoPilot Servos, Engine monitor, second screen etc. Add them now or in the future. And they are all remote components so you don't have to add any holes to the panel.

The final step, add the ifr navigator.

The answer is essentially “all of them” - Dynon, GRT, Garmin, AFS - all are very simple to upgrade by adding equipment.Most of them automatically recognize the new equipment and keep on ticking.

It is useful to think ahead when it comes to harnesses, and possibly add connectors for what you think you might add later - of course you might have to do some temporary CAN bus terminations with this approach, but I have done that with no issues.

Don't overlook used avionics

Consider putting in a good used certified GPS/NAV unit until you can afford a newer one. For example, a lot of people are still replacing Garmin GNS430W and GNS530W units. Look at Marketplace groups on Facebook and other online sources, and check with avionics shops that do a lot of upgrades. But do be careful to get a fully functional unit that you can keep up to date with software and databases - I'm not sure whether Garmin still supports databases for the GNS series.

Advanced Flight makes a very modular panel that ostensibly make incremental upgrades easy. It's a neat concept. I don't know if they have a ready-made panel for an RV-4, but I think that one could have any panel cut and buy the AFS ACM and other components without the panel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tNAdWJWIvY&t=8s


,,,

The AFS solution looks nifty. After reading the responses here it seems like the solutions would be either go with a system that has a hub system like the AFS or go ahead and pre-wire everything for the desired final configuration.

For an incremental upgrade something that I was considering was the value of two of the mini EFIS (G5 or GRT mini, for example) compared to a single large screen. In the RV-4 you’d only be able to fit a single 10” screen; I’ve seen a few examples of people managing a traditional PFD/MFD with 7” screens but it’s tight.

Looking ahead to an IFR panel would you be comfortable with two small displays versus one big PFD? It seems they’re about the same price but with two you already have that element of screen/AHRS redundancy, as I see it.

The mini EFIS option is ok for a backup if you already have an integrated display. Running two mini EFIS drives you to cobbled together stuff for the much needed MFD.

For the RV-4 I would run (as a final IFR install) two 7" SkyView systems (first choice) or a single 10" SkyView with a D10A (or G5) as the backup.

My neighbor here at VA42 installed two smaller Grand Rapid EFIS displays in his Lancair 4 - and flew that setup over the North and South Pole, as well as circumnavigating the globe going west (the hard way). The setup worked for him.

Photo is what I'm flying in the RV-8.
Carl

Dynon worked well

I started with a used smaller Dynon, D700. I bought all the sensors and flew it VFR for a few years very successfully. I recently added an IFR GPS and second used larger Dynon D1000 to complete the IFR upgrade process. I’ve been flying it IFR now for a few months and am very happy with it.

Here is the before VFR version


And the IFR version




Sure there are more modern panels but the used avionics market is very reasonable. All items bought here on VAF for a fraction of the new price.

Hope this helps

Simon

Carl Froehlich said:

The mini EFIS option is ok for a backup if you already have an integrated display. Running two mini EFIS drives you to cobbled together stuff for the much needed MFD.

Click to expand...

Is having the MFD “all that?” Maybe I’m ignorant about this as I’ve never used one. I’ll admit part of me is looking at the cost of a Dynon or Garmin complete system and seeing it quickly become a substantial portion of the value of the plane.

Yes, Avionics are a significant part of the cost of an airplane. Typical "rule" of thumb is the 1/3-1/3-1/3 One third of the cost is airframe, one third engine and one third avionics. It is usually close.

The smaller screens work fine as a flight instrument (PFD), but they are too small to be a practical moving map (MFD) Think iPhone vs iPad.

An electronic flight instrument system (EFIS) is a flight deck instrument display system that displays flight data electronically rather than electromechanically. An EFIS normally consists of a primary flight display (PFD), multi-function display (MFD), and an engine indicating and crew alerting system (EICAS) display.

The terminology is from back in the day when screens were smaller and they had dedicated functions. The PFD was in front of the pilot showing flight instruments, a MFD was to the side showing a moving map and then there was a seperate engine monitor or engine gauges. Now a day with larger glass, split screens, etc a single screen could be configured to show all the functions. Still the PFD is typically referred to as the screen in front of the pilot and the MFD is the screen to the side, but they could be configured lots of different way depending on what you want.

If you post a photo of your current panel I am sure you will get lots of opinions on how to phase into an IFR panel.

The value of having everything integrated into the EFIS moving map (TIS, ADS-B traffic, weather, terrain and obstacles) is the order of magnitude leap it provides for situation awareness.

While I know people have flown all over down to minimums with a six pack and a VOR receiver, I consider the value of the integration provided by a real EFIS to many times outweigh the cost.

Get one EFIS, then when ready for IFR get a second EFIS and GPS navigator. No separate MFD would then be needed.

Carl

Another advantage of a modern efis/mfd is engine monitoring. I know of quite a few pilots that failed to notice 0 amps on the ammeter, and flew until the battery died. That will never happen with a modern efis; as as soon as the voltage drops below the set point (like 13.8 volts) you’ll have flashing red lights in your face! With engine prices what they are, having good monitoring makes sense.

Dan,
For my panel upgrade on my RV4, I had similar priorities to yours. I didn’t want to price the airplane out of the market, but wanted a more modern panel that is upgradable. I ended up with a GRT Horizon 10.1, and Mini EFIS as a backup. This gave me the necessary flight instrumentation for IFR flight, but without an IFR approved navigator. This was a complete panel rebuild and was done for a little less than $10K. I already had a GRT EIS, so this made a difference on manufacturers for me. The least expensive IFR navigator for me is a VHF NAV receiver, like the VAL remote NAV receiver ($995). If I had that unit, or one like it, I could file IFR legally, fly enroute using VOR navigation, or GPS routing/direct using one of my 2 WAAS GPS EFIS systems - as long as I was in a ‘radar environement’ - basically everywhere, but I could only do a VHF NAV based approach (ILS, Back course, VOR). The GPS in my EFIS overlays the IFR approach, so it can be used for situational awareness only, not for IFR approaches. The cost of a good GPS/VHF NAV IFR approach certified navigator (like a Garmin 650) will easily double the cost of my instrument panel and for me, and it’s just not worth it - to me. But I have an airplane that is easily upgradable for IFR flight.



Upside down……. Nice. No idea how to prevent this anomaly……. Sorry

Same Situation

I am having the same discussions with all my RV friends. I have a great VFR panel but want to upgrade to an IFR panel.

Scott Hersha said:

I could file IFR legally, fly enroute using VOR navigation, or GPS routing/direct using one of my 2 WAAS GPS EFIS systems - as long as I was in a ‘radar environement’ - ….

Click to expand...

Strictly speaking this is not correct. You cannot legally use the non-TSO’d gps for navigation under IFR. But you can call ATC and ask, ‘How about a radar vector direct Salt Lake on, like, heading 024?’ (Wink, wink).

I started out with a GRT WS, upgraded it to an HS then to an HX. At the time of upgrade to the HX I added a Mini-X as well.

Fast forward to a dark night doing simulated instrument (hood) work. All of a sudden in a climbing turn the Mini-X and HX were showing a different attitude solution. NOT GOOD!

I was amazed by the speed with which I was able to cross-check secondary indications (rate of climb, skid-slip, airspeed, altitude) to determine it was the HX that had lost its marbles. Punched the "MAP" button on the HX to take the erroneous attitude indication away and continued the flight using the Mini-X.

Having experienced this attitude miscompare I opted to replace my dedicated engine monitor display with a Sport EX. This allows me to use that same real estate to show a third attitude reference as well as engine instruments.

I have mapping and terrain as well as synthetic vision on both the HX and Mini-X - this works very well.

My rule of thumb when flying is "don't touch the Mini-X"... it stays in PFD mode all the time. As a result I know I've always got that rock-solid backup available to me all the time, no matter what I might fudge up when pushing buttons elsewhere in the panel.