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Cheap N Light (The real Scrappy)

JohnD.TF4

Active Member
Greetings all,

I recently acquired an RV-8 QB (fuse and wings) and am looking to put it together as light and cheap as I possibly can (poor pilot here) and am looking for ideas.

I've obtained the required day VFR instrumentation in the form of used steam gauges which I will be using until I can afford the nice toys. ("precision analog instruments" to quote another VAFer.)

My build priorities:

1: Safety
The obvious number one here. Because of this I will not be looking at auto-conversion engines.

2: Cheap!
Willing to go all out here, no wheel pants, no fancy interior, OK with fixed pitch prop etc.

3: Lightweight
Not sure if this is realistic, but I'm going for sub- 1000lbs

Ideas and thoughts are welcome!

Have a great evening all,
 
A good place to start is to review the EAB rules: There is NO required instrumentation for day vfr operations, although that probably conflicts with your rule #1. If you’re planning on any cross country, I’d reconsider your no wheel pants plans. You’ll make up the cost in fuel savings.
 
Definitely put wheel pants on, you will gain 15 to 20mph. And much better climb. You can save weight by going with glass. There is some very inexpensive glass out there that works. What you spend now will not be missed a year down the road.
 
If you start out with a FP prop, make sure the engine can be later changed over to a C/S prop, because I predict you will want one. ;)
 
Consider not painting. This saves lots of money plus a not insignificant amount of weight. If you really want to be “ scrappy”, Don’t polish either, which saves a need to be carefully and not scratch up the skins during build and lots of man hours after flying to keep polished looking good. Lots of RVs flying with out paint or polish.

My biggest advise is to stick to your build priorities as you will get lots of advise to modify them. Already some posts above in this thread are suggesting to mod your priorities in some way. All good advise but can start the slip. Build what you want and It will be a fine RV with Safety as your number 1 priority.

ps. I built my RV with those same priorities (except I had 2 and 3 switched). I have been flying for 15 years and have not regretted any decision to go cheap/light with simple panel and fixed pitch prop. May I update in the future? Yes, but for almost 1000 hours it has been great flying for me.
 
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If you've already got the VFR steam gauges, then build on. But if you haven't yet, look for a used Dynon D10A. That's all your VFR steam gauges in one box, and it'll be lighter than a 6-pack of steam gauges.
 
Definitely put wheel pants on, you will gain 15 to 20mph. And much better climb. You can save weight by going with glass. There is some very inexpensive glass out there that works. What you spend now will not be missed a year down the road.

15 to 20? My buddy has an -8, and when he flies without wheel pants, he claims 3 to 4 knots difference with and without pants. The gear leg fairings are worth 7, so maybe 10 total..
 
15 to 20? My buddy has an -8, and when he flies without wheel pants, he claims 3 to 4 knots difference with and without pants. The gear leg fairings are worth 7, so maybe 10 total..

I flight tested this pretty extensively years ago with our RV-6. The pants themselves are worth 6-7 knots. The gear leg fairings a couple - the intersection fairings are worth about 12-14v knots! Overall, expect about a 16-18 knot difference between a bare airplane and one with full fairings - and that is ALL at the top end of the speed range, so cooling is greatly affected with gear leg fairings.

It doesn’t cost much (compared to other stuff on the airplane) to do a good job of fairings, and while it does take some time, it is well worth it when you are fighting temperature problems with your engine. RV’s are designed to be flown with fairings - going without is a significant compromise.

Paul
 
I flight tested this pretty extensively years ago with our RV-6. The pants themselves are worth 6-7 knots. The gear leg fairings a couple - the intersection fairings are worth about 12-14v knots! Overall, expect about a 16-18 knot difference between a bare airplane and one with full fairings - and that is ALL at the top end of the speed range, so cooling is greatly affected with gear leg fairings.
Paul

This sounds like a lot for intersection fairings, can you elaborate?
 
I think you will realize that cheap and light sometimes contradicts each other.

I do have an RV-8 that comes in under 1000lb now (was a bit over before I switched to Cato prop and EarthX). That wasn't really my goal but it ended up that way. Couple of things that contributed:

- Fixed pitch Cato prop and no after 500+ hours I have ZERO desire to add a constant speed prop. I land in small grass strips, fly competitive acro and 800+ miles cross country multiple times a year. In all of this I never thought the extra work (maintenance) and cost justifies the gain. I know other people have other opinions and that is fine by me. Just telling you mine. Now a Cato prop is not cheap. You can get much cheaper metal props but then you gain weight. I have no experience with wood props which would be light and cheap.

- EarthX battery. Again an old fashioned battery is going to be cheaper but heavier.

- Single glass panel. Believe it or not even a small steam gauge setup is going to weigh more than a simple/single glass panel.

- No paint. Both cheap and light weight. Polishing is kind of getting old. In particular as my son is at college now so I can't easily outsource it any more .... . So maybe I will change this in the future.

- No wheel pants. I do have all the other fairings (gear leg/intersection...) and I do have the wheel pants laying in the garage... They make a 5mph difference in cruise. I actually like the extra drag for acro (RVs pick up speed fast) and I don't like the wheel pants on some of the grass strips I go into do to clearance/runway condition. So I leave them off now as I got tired of putting them on/off all the time even though the 5mph would be nice on the longer x-county.. .

- My interior consist of spraying the inside with rostoleum rattle cans. In particular I used the hammered finish so you don't see imperfections that much. I think my entire interior was about 6 cans = 30$ or so. So that's light and cheap.. . I did go lucky and bought some really nice used cushions from somebody who started an RV-8 and never finished. Otherwise that's quite a bit of money but you do want something nice to avoid back pain ... .

Generally I did follow Vans plans. I did splurge and bought a new engine but your biggest savings opportunity is going to be to find a good used Lycoming engine.

Hope that helps

Oliver
 
This sounds like a lot for intersection fairings, can you elaborate?

It sounds like a lot, but we verified our own data with that of others, as well as from Van’s. this was all ten or more years ago, so I don’t have any of the data easily obtainable...but yes, intersection fairings make a huge difference. Good upper fairings also seem to get rid of the RV-8 tail shudder near the stall!
 
Sounds not far off my goals. I was willing to spend some money to lose weight, and spend pounds on inverted systems. Didn't keep track of every cent, but pretty sure I got it under $50k.

Agree that sub 1000 lbs is possible, mine was 1004 with paint but no pants or gear fairings. Lithium battery, no lights or gyros.

Cheapest/lightest panel I've ever seen was a GRT EIS as the only panel in a Pitts S-12. Old school steam gauges are much easier to read than a single digital number.

Also have a Catto 3-blade prop, the initial acceleration isn't anything like what a constant speed will do, but once off the ground climb and cruise aren't that far off.

The engine is the hard part. The success of the RV serious has used up the cheap used engines. I got one from somebody on here who was upgrading to something bigger. Keep your eyes open while building and hope something turns up.
 
I've got similar priorities as well. Once priority 1 satisfied (safety), weight and cost are often contradictory. I've got a rough figure in my mind of $50/lb for weight savings. Aluminum landing gear, all said and done is worth about $60/lb, so a no go for me. Pick a number for yourself and go from there.
 
Thank you all for the input, keep it coming!

There are several items that are excellent choices for the plane that I would love to have, but will not for my #2 priority item: cost.

Things mentioned include a drop-in EFIS (G5, D10), digital EMS, wheel pants, CS prop, EarthX battery, etc. Yes...I want them all! but cost was the driver in eliminating those. I can always upgrade after I am flying.

Several of you mentioned the Catto prop. Are there any other good fixed pitch options or is this the go-to?
 
John,
The cheapest thing you can do is do it right the first time. If you haven't got the time and money to do it right the first time, when are you ever going to find the time or money to do it again?
Taking the aircraft out of service to modify things in the future is always a PITA, and if you've built the plane you want to fly, you'll rather be flying it than working on it. Pound for pound of saving, you can't afford not to put an earth battery or similar in your aircraft. A PC680 is 15.4lbs. An ETX680 is 3.9lbs. That's 11.5lbs saved for $195 extra dollars, or $16.9 per pound. Your aircraft costs approximately $100 per pound to build. That's the cheapest weight saving you are ever going to get in an aircraft. When you take into account that a LiFePO4 will typically last more than double that of a lead acid battery, if you plan on owning your aircraft for more than just a few years, it will pay for itself many times over. Don't cut off your nose in spite of your face. There's no point building a plane you don't want to fly or aren't proud of just because you saved a few dollars on the front end. Not only will it suck to live with when you know it could have been done better, but it won't be worth anything if you go to sell it. Whilst I'm not the person that get's their wants and needs confused, I would be the first to say work a few extra weeks at your day job to save some dollars and build something that fits your mission profile. A low maintenance, efficient, capable and fun to fly aircraft is something you or someone else will be proud of flying for decades to come. An aircraft full of cut-corner compromises is something that gets flown for a few years then left out in the elements somewhere until corrosion turns it to dust.

Tom
RV-7
 
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A simple used Dynon/GRT etc is going to be simple and light. Start adding autopilots, Second screen etc and the weight starts to climb. Go with a full Garmin panel and you are talking about serious weight, all those extra behind the panel boxes and the associated LARGE wiring bundles and you have created a bunch of pounds.
Straight VFR machine with a simple EFFIS, back up airspeed gauge, one radio and transponder and you have a very light plane.
Add Uavionics wing tip lights and ADBS and now you have, with an iPad, a very sophisticated navigation and weather system
 
You can certainly get below 1000#. Mine weighed 1032# on tested car scales and had a WW GA prop, XIO370, lithium battery and paint by me. To go below 1000#; use aluminum LG, get rid of autopilot, find lighter seats than the nice OA I have. And go with light tires, I have 150-370 tires adding about 1# each. Those changes would get my -8 to about 1000# but the only ones I would consider giving up or adding would be the aluminum LG and that is not cheap and the Vans steel ones does fine. I see a big difference in climb and handling when I add a passenger so it is well worth keeping it light.
 
If you've already got the VFR steam gauges, then build on. But if you haven't yet, look for a used Dynon D10A. That's all your VFR steam gauges in one box, and it'll be lighter than a 6-pack of steam gauges.

Second Snowflake. The modern EFIS and Engine monitors weight far less than old analog gauges and provide even more info. A single G5 or D10 will replace all your 6 pack instruments and you do the same for engine instruments with a EI, JPI , insight, etc.
 
Greetings all,

I recently acquired an RV-8 QB (fuse and wings) and am looking to put it together as light and cheap as I possibly can (poor pilot here) and am looking for ideas.

I've obtained the required day VFR instrumentation in the form of used steam gauges which I will be using until I can afford the nice toys. ("precision analog instruments" to quote another VAFer.)

My build priorities:

1: Safety
The obvious number one here. Because of this I will not be looking at auto-conversion engines.

2: Cheap!
Willing to go all out here, no wheel pants, no fancy interior, OK with fixed pitch prop etc.

3: Lightweight
Not sure if this is realistic, but I'm going for sub- 1000lbs

Ideas and thoughts are welcome!

Have a great evening all,

I don't know if the steam gauges you have acquired include artificial horizon, directional gyro, or any mechanical gyro-based instrumentation. But if they do or if you want those, then you have to add a vacuum system. I don't like those - complexity and cost. But that's a personal opinion.

I think you can buy used D-10's cheaply. Even a D2 or D3 gives you the basics and then if you added airspeed and altimeter steam you'd be good to go.
 
What I did, but a -4

I built my -4 on a very tight budget and still ended up with a really nice plane that meets all my needs. I didn't outsource anything except the seat covers. I built the airframe per plans, no aftermarket goodies. I obtained a well used but decent core O320H2AD ,160HP Lycoming for dirt nothing that I tore down, sent out the case and steel parts for inspection/rework and had the cylinders overhauled. I rebuilt carb and magneto. All said I have 6K into my engine. I painted it with donated PPG Desothane paint (have any friends in the airline business?) I have less than 1K in my paint job.. Keep your eyes open for all the stuff and you will find it!. Buy a used Sterba or similar wood prop and re finish it. I have $200 into mine. All said and done, I built my -4 for well under 30K, and have been flying it now for 11 years...couldn't be happier. I know the -8 airframe is more $$, but the rest is no different. Search, scrounge and trade for your dreams!
 
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