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Van's Announces S-LSA RV-12!

DeltaRomeo

doug reeves: unfluencer
Staff member
VAF_019%20Oct.%2011,%202012%2016.15.06.jpg

October 11, 2012
For Immediate Release:

FLY AWAY IN AN S-LSA RV-12!​
Van?s Aircraft, Inc. is pleased to announce a new program to build completed, fly-away, RV-12s. Better yet, Van?s has a working agreement with Synergy Air of Eugene, OR to manufacture the airplanes in the U.S.A.

Nearly 200 kit-built RV-12s have been completed and flown as E-LSA and E-AB aircraft, accumulating thousands of hours in the hands of typical pilots. Production S-LSA RV-12s will include the benefits of this real-world flight experience, rather than just factory testing done by professional pilots.

Introductory price of the completed airplane is targeted at $105,000. Standard equipment will include the Rotax 912ULS engine, Dynon Skyview EFIS (which includes a Mode S transponder and GPS), Garmin SL-40 comm radio, Flightcom stereo intercom, 406Mhz ELT, Flightline interior, and LED lighting for night flight. Options will include wheelpants, ADS-B, a two-axis autopilot, premium paint finishes and Oregon Aero seats and interior.

Synergy Air is building an initial production run of twelve (12) aircraft to define and codify the production process. We plan to offer these 12 aircraft as "Signature Edition" models that will include all options at an introductory price of $115,000, F.A.F.

Van?s is working to establish a network of Service Centers to maintain and repair the RV-12.

We plan to begin accepting orders before the end of November 2012, and expect initial deliveries in early 2013. Those interested in reserving a delivery position may contact Van?s at the AOPA Summit (Oct 11-13) or contact us at the factory in Oregon.

Van?s Aircraft, based in Aurora, OR, is the world leader in the kit airplane industry, with almost 8,000 RVs flying around the globe. The company produces high quality, accurate kits for over 500 complete airplanes each year, using state-of-the-art design and manufacturing technology.

Synergy Air is a well-established company providing instructional seminars, videos, and builder assistance to complete kit airplanes, located at the Eugene airport.
For further information www.vansaircraft.com or contact Gus Funnell at Van?s Aircraft​
[email protected], 503 678 6545
 
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So, I would make a wild guess this is the afternoon surprise you mentioned in the home page:rolleyes:

[ed. ;^) Yep. dr]
 
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Surprised me! I didn't think Vans would go into turnkey manufacturing, but this on top of the RV-14 shows they are not relying on past success for future business. I think the production RV-12 will do well. Also interesting to find out what the retail value of the aircraft actually is.
 
Should be a huge success

I think we will now see a lot more RV's in the hands of people that normally don't consider (Experimental) planes.
With a price of $105,000 I don't know why anyone would buy a Skycatcher at $149,000. I think Van's is very smart to go this route and attack this market quickly.
Skycatcher specs vs. RV-12 specs. It is a no brainer.
 
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wasn't there just a thread recently about how it is so hard to build cost competitively in the USA? Apparently Van's and Synergy Air believe they can. I think this is great news
 
Outstanding news

After building a 12 and flying it for 45 hours, I can attest (my opinion) after flying my RV plus 4 different slsa models the 12 is at the top with two of the 4 and I believe handles better with great performance.

I was asked recently how much would I would sell N25DV hypothetically. I responded first I wouldn't, but thought a fair price would be 120+ ( close to their SLSA price )

This announcement is great for Vans and other RV builders
 
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Hey Steve,
welcome.gif
to VAF.

Good to have you here.




Thanks Mike, glad to be here. Been lurking for about a year now and finally posted today. I have got to admit, this site and the whole idea of building a Vans aircraft is becoming quite an obsession. I made an offer on a partially completed 7 empennage today on the VAF classified and am crossing my fingers eagerly waiting a reply. Hec, Im even dreaming about this stuff....lol
 
Great news. Now if the Congress and FAA could see to create another category of aircraft, the professionally built kitplane.
 
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one!

My feeling is that the RV-14A may end up as a production aircraft as well. :rolleyes:

There's a lot more red tape in certifying a part 23 aircraft than there is for Light-Sport.
 
A new gold standard for the Market place!

This sets up a very good market for resale of ELSA RV12s.
Well made RV12s should now be sold around $100,000.00 and up.:D
 
There's a lot more red tape in certifying a part 23 aircraft than there is for Light-Sport.

Indeed. I have to admit that my first reaction was "Whoa, Van's will now be building ready-to-fly airplanes?! If the 12 works out, I bet the 10 and the 14 will be next!". But then I realized that, yeah, ASTM certification of LSAs is a lot easier than FAA Part 23 certification of conventional airplanes. That thought, in turn, made me want to look into the specifics and pick out exactly what the differences are. (This brings to mind the issues that the Zodiac had, because I have heard that one way to think about them is that the ASTM requirements for analysis and for handling are not as strict as Part 23's... And also the Cessna 162, which I heard was being certified as per Part 23, although I never found out why, or even whether that's really true).

In any case, I'm excited to hear that it will soon be possible to buy a professionally-built RV. I expect that this will put RVs into the hands of pilots who would not have considered them. I'm not sure how big the LSA market is (I hear conflicting reports, ranging from "It's booming!" to "The manufacturers are having difficulty selling these expensive new models") but I'm glad that Van's will have a bigger slice of it now.

(To be perfectly honest, I don't understand why people buy new factory-built airplanes, since used airplanes are a fraction of the (huge) cost and fly exactly the same. I'd never buy a new LSA when used ones can be had for much cheaper. But that's just me. Maybe if I had more money in the bank, I would feel differently).

It occurs to me that a slightly slower RV-3 would qualify as an LSA (e.g. with a bigger/curvier wing, maybe some VGs, maybe bigger flaps). It would be one of the fastest-climbing and most aerobatic LSAs out there (especially if you put a nice powerful engine in it, and met the LSA 120kt max-speed restriction via a placard that says "No continuous operation past so-many RPM";)). Maybe if the RV-12 LSA sells well... Hmmm...
 
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This sets up a very good market for resale of ELSA RV12s.
Well made RV12s should now be sold around $100,000.00 and up.:D

Though I can't say whether or not S-LSA RV-12's will or wont raise the going market price for E-LSA RV-12's, I can say that there will still be a major operational difference between the two (which likely will reflect in a difference in sale value).
An S-LSA RV-12 is very similar to a part 23 certificated aircraft in that it can be used for hire (part of a rental fleet at an FBO, etc.), an E-LSA RV-12 can not.
 
Vans RV 12 Announcement

" this site and the whole idea of building a Vans aircraft is becoming quite an obsession."

+1 From a non pilot new member!!


Great sight guys I am on the Vans bandwagon and hope to get a chance to ride in one. ( I am not a gear head but will gladly lend a pair of hands to help some one build if they don't mind a newbie)
 
Though I can't say whether or not S-LSA RV-12's will or wont raise the going market price for E-LSA RV-12's, I can say that there will still be a major operational difference between the two (which likely will reflect in a difference in sale value).
An S-LSA RV-12 is very similar to a part 23 certificated aircraft in that it can be used for hire (part of a rental fleet at an FBO, etc.), an E-LSA RV-12 can not.

Now that is an interesting point. I would love it if one of the local flight schools/fbo's got a couple of RV-12s in their fleet, especially since I have now parted ways with my RV.
 
Flight Schools

Will buy the RV-12 in great numbers - mark my words. This is exactly what is needed for flight schools.

Kudos to Van's for this offering. I expect that the 'improvements' to the seats, etc will add value also. Hope that the 'improvements' will be certified and available to those of us who are building the kit. What say you, Van's??? You knew that this was coming.:D
 
I think this is great news! I'd love to see some flight schools with them. I do wonder how they would do sitting outside in the rain for months though. I love my tip up 7A but it's not really great for wet operations. Maybe the 12 seals up a little better. We've probably all rented a leaky 152 a time or two but those things have been outside for thirty years.
 
An excellent move.

I wonder how flight schools will react to fuel splashing effect on window?
Vans now will have an even less compliant customer group than us to deal with!
John
 
An excellent move.

I wonder how flight schools will react to fuel splashing effect on window?
Vans now will have an even less compliant customer group than us to deal with!
John

Van's did say they are going forward with the lessons of the 200 "beta testers" that have paved the way. I am surprised that they are going ahead with the tank in the cockpit without consideration for wing tanks. How many of the 200 actually remove their wings and trailer them around as originally expected. Twenty gallons in your cockpit is a pretty healthy trade-off for a gimmick unused.
 
Scott, what are the requirements for working on it, and for signing the annual?

An S-LSA RV-12 can be maintained and inspected by a holder of a Repairman/Maintenance certificate for fixed wing aircraft (specific certification is issued for different types such as weight shift, powered chute, etc.) or an A&P with Rotax specific training.
Use of an S-LSA aircraft for compensation or hire requires that 100 hr inspections be done just as they are for part 23 aircraft. If it is for personal use only, only a yearly condition inspection is required.

You can take a 120 hr class to obtain the Repairman/ Maintenance certification.
The reason an A&P needs Rotax specific training is because via the ASTM's that S-LSA aircraft are certificated under, the FAA gave the manufacturers the authority to specify what level of certification is required for maint, repairs, and inspections. Rotax is a manufacturer, and in all of their documentation they specify that a mechanic must have factory specific training (so an A&P technically has to get Rotax training for each level of work that he will do).
This engine service training does not apply to anyone with an E-LSA RV-12, because it is an experimental category aircraft, so Rotax's stipulations do not apply (though I feel it is still a very good idea... the majority of the engine questions I see asked here on the forum, wouldn't be asked if the person had gotten proper training for maintaining the engine).
 
It's Incurable!

Thanks Mike, glad to be here. Been lurking for about a year now and finally posted today. I have got to admit, this site and the whole idea of building a Vans aircraft is becoming quite an obsession. I made an offer on a partially completed 7 empennage today on the VAF classified and am crossing my fingers eagerly waiting a reply. Hec, Im even dreaming about this stuff....lol

Steve,

Welcome to VAF! Sounds to me as though you have been bitten by the RV Bug! There is no antidote and you simply have to live with the symptoms (uncontrolled drooling when looking at RV photos, random dreams of RV building, increased involuntary grinning reflexes, obsession of thoughts of how your gonna "make it happen", and addiction to VAF forum)....yes its a chronic condition:D:D Rx.....read two posts at night.....and log on again in the morning:D:D

YOL BOLSON STEVE!!!
 
Here comes the party spoiler!

The news of an RV-12 S-LSA for sale is good for all RV-12 E-LSA builders and owners. As I was learning to fly while I was building an RV-12, I struggled with my transition training because of a lack of RV-12 availability for hire and training.
I am not an Industrial Engineer and therefore cannot rate the RV-12 design regarding it's adaptability to cost effective industrial production. What I remember of the two very plaisant years I spent building one in my workshop is the time consuming aspect of some tasks like metal fabrication, deburing and fiber work on the canopy and cowling. My question therefore is: based on the current design, is it possible to produce the RV-12 at a competitive price and have a profitable business model? Based on the lower building time of 600 hours, the labor cost at $50/hour is $30K, add this to the cost of the kit, painting and you hit the $115K announced. Unfortunately this does not include the cost of investing into a facility and business overhead.
I believe that VANs will quickly get under pressure to create changes that make the kit easier, cheaper and faster to build. Will such an evolution be compatible with the E-LSA status? Will it be compatible with the tools and skills of an amateur builder? I also doubt that an all riveted metal S-LSA is the way of the future, just look at the top selling models: they are mostly composite.
 
Steve,

Welcome to VAF! Sounds to me as though you have been bitten by the RV Bug! There is no antidote and you simply have to live with the symptoms (uncontrolled drooling when looking at RV photos, random dreams of RV building, increased involuntary grinning reflexes, obsession of thoughts of how your gonna "make it happen", and addiction to VAF forum)....yes its a chronic condition:D:D Rx.....read two posts at night.....and log on again in the morning:D:D

YOL BOLSON STEVE!!!

Thanks for the warm welcome Bob...Great to be here.:)
 
....
based on the current design, is it possible to produce the RV-12 at a competitive price and have a profitable business model? Based on the lower building time of 600 hours, the labor cost at $50/hour is $30K, add this to the cost of the kit, painting and you hit the $115K announced. Unfortunately this does not include the cost of investing into a facility and business overhead.
.

Retail (us) vs. wholesale (them)
Quantity price breaks, etc.
 
Unfortunately this does not include the cost of investing into a facility and business overhead.

They are using an established company to do the building, one that has a long history of teaching alum aircraft assembly. Synergy Air, read the first post.
 
Wow! They even stepped away from the "home-built" videos and have a real, produced video to go with a real, produced airplane! Very cool.

--Bill
 
Flight schools?

I would love it if one of the local flight schools/fbo's got a couple of RV-12s in their fleet

Flight schools will buy the RV-12 in great numbers - mark my words. This is exactly what is needed for flight schools.

I'd love to see some flight schools with them.

While I would love to see that as much as anyone, the truth is: Flight schools have not bought a whole lot of LSAs since they became available. There are four airports within an hour of my house that have FBOs (plus one Class Bravo)... but only two LSAs that you can rent (both at the same one of these four airports). One of the other airports had an FBO that also had a couple LSAs, but it went out of business. Out of all the single-engine airplanes owned by flight schools, I can't imagine that more than 10% are LSAs, probably a lot less than that.

I think LSAs are so rare because an LSA is a lot more expensive to buy than a used Cessna (unless you buy a vintage LSA like an Ercoupe or a Champ). And another factor: Are there a whole lot of potential students who would learn at your flight school if you had a $110/hr airplane, but not if all you have are $150/hr airplanes? (If so, a 152 might be a better option than an LSA, to fill the "budget" niche).

In other forums where I participate, some hopeful future pilots ask "What's the most affordable way to get a pilot's license?", then some of us answer "Sport Pilot", then the original person replies "I can't find a flight school that has an LSA wihtin an hour of my house. Lots of 152s and 172s and Pipers, though".

I learned to fly in a SportStar. It would have been pretty awesome to learn in an RV-12!
 
Wow!

What a wonderful world model...a new airplane built in America, by Americans!

Just recently, I visited my son in Athens, Ga. and in the lobby of the FBO was a glass case with Caterpillar models of what the new factory in Athens will produce...$$Millions of dollars for the Athens area. The best news ...they're relocating to Athens from JAPAN!

We've done it here in the USA and by golly, we can do it again.

So happy!
 
What happens to the entire LSA market should the current 180 hp no medical proposal get approved by the FAA? Ralph gets to keep flying his
RV-3/4/6/7/8/9, Joe his C-172, and Bill his Cherokee.

Tony
 
Same as now...they have to burn AVgas while the Rotax can burn car gas with ethanol. More and more areas of the country are becoming (by law) ethanol mandated.
 
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What happens to the entire LSA market should the current 180 hp no medical proposal get approved by the FAA? Ralph gets to keep flying his
RV-3/4/6/7/8/9, Joe his C-172, and Bill his Cherokee.

Light Sport Aircraft still have the advantage of ASTM certification over part 23 certification -- a difference that is certainly non-trivial.
 
RV-12 Rental

I've been hoping this would happen for quite some time. So now, the big question...

What would be a reasonable rental rate for the RV-12? Keeping in mind the realities of rental aircraft (high insurance costs, scheduling issues, etc)....what is the amount you would be willing to pay and still afford to fly regularly?
 
I am curious as to how many of the RV12 builders that have finished the plane ever remove the wings. Maybe someone on here can set up a survey to find out. I can see the tank behind the seat being a potential problem for flight schools wanting to rent and train in a 12.

I would think it would not be all that difficult to offer the kit as it is now and also with permanent wings and wing tanks. I am not an engineer so this may be very difficult. However all you engineers on this site can probably offer some insight.

John Morgan:rolleyes:
 
http://www.vansairforce.net/____delete_someday_Aug2012


Van?s is working to establish a network of Service Centers to maintain and repair the RV-12.


[U][email protected][/U], 503 678 6545
[/SIZE][/INDENT][/QUOTE]


This is potentially good news, as your average Cessna/Piper dealer is poorly qualified to work on an RV-12 -- but, will these Centers be available to E-LSA airplane owners?

Bob Bogash
N737G​
 
Imagine training in a 12 and then finding an aircraft to move up to..........


Does a 14 look good at that point?


Or maybe a 10?


Maybe we start with...... VAN'S FLYING CENTERS


There may be a market for all of those 4's and 6-6a's out there yet.
 
RV 12 Wing Removal

We remove our at least 3 or 4 times a month.
We have several airplanes in our hangar which necessitates the need to remove them.
We have not had any issues evem though we have a wing mounted AOA Pitot.

AL
 
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Easier condition inspection

Wing removal should be a real plus for repairs and condition inspections. You can get to the "guts" of the plane much easier, and do it in much less space. Wheel and brake work would be a snap, as well as working in the cockpit while standing on the ground. This plus the ability to transport plane on trailer and move it on the highway would appear to make the removable wings a real advantage. :D
 
Primer Wars!!

So....are assembly line RV-12 aircraft in primer on the inside? Or au naturel? Sorry guys, I couldn't help but startup the primer war on the SLSA RV-12.
Bruce
 
I can see the tank behind the seat being a potential problem for flight schools wanting to rent and train in a 12.
John Morgan:rolleyes:

There used to be (and maybe still are) a lot of Diamond DA20s used by flight schools. They have their single tank right behind the seat. I first soloed in one of these.
 
$/Hr

E-LSA RV-12 $64K plus AP & Lights 2.5K + 1K Shipping + 1K Full Interior +.5K tools +1K Wheel Paints =
ABOUT 70K. Add 6K for a paint job = 76K
Some of those numbers are probably low.
I don't know if the paint job is included in $115K for S-LSA, lets say it is.
115K - 76K = 39K difference.

First time meticulous builder = 950 hours.
Others maybe 800 hours(?)
Lots of folks don't have that to spare.
$39,000/950 hours = $41/hr.
Lots of folks make more than that and don't just "want" to build.

Also when you build your own, after completion you will probably pay state sales tax on all the kit parts. But the same is true for the S-LSA. But buy a completed plane and you might be eligible for a tax credit depending on the use.


Run your own numbers and scenario!
 
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