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terrible broker experience...

M

moll780

Well Known Member
Wow.. I've never had a worse experience with any sales person in any industry.
I'm mostly venting and wont post any details about who.. but..
I have a few questions for the community;
Would anyone put a deposit and sign a sales agreement without;
1. a pre-buy inspection?
2. viewing the aircraft in person?
3. flying the aircraft?
and/or
4. engaging with the owner/builder (I can think of a ton of good reasons why talking with the owner is both a benefit to the owner and potential buyer).

(note: one wouldn't do this when buying property or another vehicle and IMHO the purchase of an experimental private aircraft is far more personal and the manifestation of poor previous ownership could result in death.. or worse). There must be personal involvement between previous and new owners. Its an aircraft for dad gum sake!

I was told I couldn't bring a mechanic/view/fly/inspect the plane (even though its practically in my back yard) unless I plunked down cash and signed a sales agreement.
Tire kicking was clearly not a factor in this exchange but his reticence and lack of professionalism has left me with no doubt that my RV10 purchase will not be done through a broker.
 
I had a similar experience with a broker as a first time buyer. The owner accepted my offer and the broker made similar demands. I was surprised as its not exactly how AOPA described the process.

Later, when the contract between the broker and the owner was no longer valid, we approached the owner directly and had a pretty great experience from then on. The sellers were honest folks and good to deal with.

I did however, in good faith, give the owner a $500.00 non-refundable deposit to show them I was serious so we could move forward. This was before I ever laid eyes on the airplane in person. A hand shake deal.

Other more experienced folks from this site were also interested in buying the same plane and had gone to look at it. We all ended up communicating with one another and from them I learned quite a bit about the plane before seeing it. There's a lot of honest, good knowledgeable folks on this site who will share their advise freely. I'm very grateful for that.

Again through folks on this site, I arranged for a pre-buy and the owner and I worked through all the issues satisfactorily.

After the pre-buy, I flew in and looked it over and flew it. That day the money was transferred and I flew her home.

Some of the best advise I received in the process was to slow down, think it through and if its meant to be, it will happen.
 
When you buy a homebuilt, you can almost be sure of surprises. You should tell yourself that you're not just buying an airplane, you're also buying the integrity of the builder and seller (if they're different). And craftsmanship is not always an indication of airworthiness...

"If you have a choice between a used homebuilt and a used snake, buy the used snake." Budd Davisson

Ed Wischmeyer
 
I have only used a broker once and it worked out OK, but I have heard of stories where the broker demanded a sales contract prior to any prebuy or even a visual inspection. I do understand why someone would want to have a contract to possibly protect themself from spending time and money doing a prebuy for a potential buyer who is not serious, but these types of deals can be usually be worked out in person between the buyer and seller if a broker is not used.

Call Jessie Saint, he has several -10's for sale at his shop right now.
 
You have the money. Do it the way YOU want!

Same experience with brokers here too. Not only do they prove to be a useless barrier between you and the seller, but I would argue that they actually detract from your ability to buy the plane. But I have high standards I guess.

Took me 3-4 years to find my plane. But when I did, I knew I was looking at it!
 
Ed_Wischmeyer said:
When you buy a homebuilt, you can almost be sure of surprises. You should tell yourself that you're not just buying an airplane, you're also buying the integrity of the builder and seller (if they're different). And craftsmanship is not always an indication of airworthiness...
Click to expand...

And it's not just Home-builts. I've, in the past, done pre-buys on certified aircraft that were advertised as "no damage history" only to find patches on the aircraft. When questioned about these repairs the owner simply said, "There is no damage history!"
 
OK, so I'll chime in here from the other side.

Part of what we do is broker other people's planes for them. Most of the time, when someone hires a broker, it is because they don't have the time or desire to deal with the "tire kickers". It is common practice in my business that I do not put the buyer and seller in the same room (hangar) until there is a legit deal on the table. I answer all of the buyer's questions, often times by asking the seller if I don't already know. I make sure I have as much pertinent information ahead of time as possible so I don't have to bother the seller any more than necessary. I usually have a "bottom line" number from the seller so I can kick the low-ballers out before too much time is wasted. With experimentals, warbirds, etc, we will usually handle the first viewing of the plane without the seller/builder. If the buyer is still interested and wants to pursue it further, then we bring in the seller.

However, I always have a way to show the plane to the prospective buyer early on in the process. If the plane is local, I will show it myself. If the plane is elsewhere in the country, I will get someone on the field to open the hangar to show the plane. If a buyer is seriously interested, we'll make arrangements to meet the seller, but usually only if it is an experimental or very unique airplane.

We will certainly allow the buyer to bring his mechanic along to see the plane, open a few panels, poke around, etc. However, we do not allow a pre-buy inspection until there is an agreement signed and a fully refundable deposit placed in escrow. There is a certain liability that comes into play when a mechanic opens up someone else's plane for a pre-buy. A good pre-buy includes engine compressions and sometimes borescope, removing seats, all inspection/access panels, floorboards, etc, etc. If there are any surprises in the pre-buy inspection, the buyer has the option to walk away with all his money or renegotiate the deal.
 
A typical broker is just a sales person. He often hasn't even seen the airplane. However, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I broker some airplanes. I make it available to be seen, flown, inspected, etc before any money is put down. I will talk to people on the phone extensively, take pictures of the details requested, tell what I like and don't like about the plane. Most of all, I never sell a plane that I don't have in my possession, have flown, and have inspected myself to the point of knowing that it is a well-built and safe airplane. I am not a salesman. I am a pilot and mechanic, and know the airplane inside and out so I can talk intelligently about it with a potential buyer. I am also very picky about the planes I will sell.

If a broker or seller won't allow or provide the above, I wouldn't buy from them.
 
The positive perspective

Craig:

Thanks for your note from a broker's perspective; it's good to hear of a positive, professional approach.

As it happens, I'm using a third party, for all the good reasons you mentioned, to sell my 9a.
 
This is about as good as it gets!
I ended my call today with such a negative feeling about the whole process that I felt used and dirty. The plane fits our mission and budget but he was so belligerent and practically laughed at how I felt about aviation and my honest, hand shake approach to the sale of an aircraft.

Anyway. I looked up the registered owner info and gave him a call. we'll see if anything comes of that approach.


Jesse said:
A typical broker is just a sales person. He often hasn't even seen the airplane. However, don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

I broker some airplanes. I make it available to be seen, flown, inspected, etc before any money is put down. I will talk to people on the phone extensively, take pictures of the details requested, tell what I like and don't like about the plane. Most of all, I never sell a plane that I don't have in my possession, have flown, and have inspected myself to the point of knowing that it is a well-built and safe airplane. I am not a salesman. I am a pilot and mechanic, and know the airplane inside and out so I can talk intelligently about it with a potential buyer. I am also very picky about the planes I will sell.

If a broker or seller won't allow or provide the above, I wouldn't buy from them.
Click to expand...
 
as stated before, I do not expect a seller to let me tear in to their plane unless a offer is made. I do however expect to be able to look at the plane, check over the logs before placing a deposit on it.

My twin as bought through a broker and we looked over the plane and logs, and decided to make an offer. That offer was contingent on the pre-buy and title search. once the deposit was in place he delivered the aircraft to my hanger for inspection. a few issues were found and the price adjusted for it. after that the deal was made.

If someone does not want to even allow you to view the aircraft, run.

bob burns
 
Previously in this thread:

"If you have a choice between a used homebuilt and a used snake, buy the used snake." Budd Davisson

I don't know who Budd Davisson is, but if this is an accurate quote and not meant as a joke, then it's one of the dumber statements I've run across.

Sure, there are some lousy homebuilts out there, but are they any worse than some of the 50 year old certified junk for sale? Walk around HBC and HBP at OSH - these planes are labors of love and some of the craftsmanship is just drop-dead beautiful.

To lump together all homebuilts as poor purchase choices, as Davisson did, is just absurd. Maybe he was kidding?
 
I have to agree with everything Ross said. He said it well.
Jim
Scorch said:
Previously in this thread:

"If you have a choice between a used homebuilt and a used snake, buy the used snake." Budd Davisson

I don't know who Budd Davisson is, but if this is an accurate quote and not meant as a joke, then it's one of the dumber statements I've run across.

Sure, there are some lousy homebuilts out there, but are they any worse than some of the 50 year old certified junk for sale? Walk around HBC and HBP at OSH - these planes are labors of love and some of the craftsmanship is just drop-dead beautiful.

To lump together all homebuilts as poor purchase choices, as Davisson did, is just absurd. Maybe he was kidding?
Click to expand...
 
Having been both buyer and seller every workday for the last 30 years, I find it hard to argue against the concept of a written agreement.

Signing or not signing depends on the terms contained therein. Some contracts are clearly one-sided, and others do a good job of fairly protecting both parties by eliminating misunderstanding.

As a private party who will no doubt sell my airplane someday, I'm unlikely to allow a stranger to test fly or dismantle for a pre-buy without a written agreement in place. If you're the prospective purchaser, you can help me write it.
 
i agree with you to a limited extent.
If I was selling my 9A, I would also like to see some commitment on the buyers side before I allowed the plane to be opened up beyond a few inspection panels, a local flight around the patch and some aviation dialogue and experiences.
But to not allow me to even view the plane or talk to the owner is a HUGE red flag for me. I don't care about his "process" or whether hes been selling RV's for years.


DanH said:
Having been both buyer and seller every workday for the last 30 years, I find it hard to argue against the concept of a written agreement.

Signing or not signing depends on the terms contained therein. Some contracts are clearly one-sided, and others do a good job of fairly protecting both parties by eliminating misunderstanding.

As a private party who will no doubt sell my airplane someday, I'm unlikely to allow a stranger to test fly or dismantle for a pre-buy without a written agreement in place. If you're the prospective purchaser, you can help me write it.
Click to expand...
 
So are there any people (that aren't brokers themselves. heh) who have had a positive experience?

Also, Budd seems to imply (or down right say) don't buy a used home built. Is it that bad of an idea or did I misunderstand?
 
Palamedes said:
So are there any people (that aren't brokers themselves. heh) who have had a positive experience?

Also, Budd seems to imply (or down right say) don't buy a used home built. Is it that bad of an idea or did I misunderstand?
Click to expand...

People buy and sell used homebuilts all the time, and most of those built from modern kits (liek RV's) are in great shape and well done. But you DO need to do due diligence, and get some experienced eyes looking at them. There are clunkers - oftentimes planes built before the age of the internet whenbuilders didn't have easy access to help or guidance - but I certainly wouldn't dump the majority of airplanes in the trash becasue of one person's comment or opinion.
 
Scorch said:
Previously in this thread:

"If you have a choice between a used homebuilt and a used snake, buy the used snake." Budd Davisson

I don't know who Budd Davisson is, but if this is an accurate quote and not meant as a joke...
Click to expand...

It is typical Bud Davisson Satire mixed with a note of caution. It is a quote of the times, years ago, but still stands true with any airplane. Bud is a living legend in sport aviation. He is in the the current issue with the anniversary of the Pitts. Still instructs Pitts landing technique in Phoenix. Best writer of Sport aviation ever!(I'm showing my bias..) Performed the first review of the RV3... etc etc.

http://www.airbum.com/pireps/PirepRV3.html
How do you like that for thread drift...
 
moll780 said:
But to not allow me to even view the plane or talk to the owner is a HUGE red flag for me. I don't care about his "process" or whether hes been selling RV's for years.
Click to expand...

Like I said, it's all about terms. What was in the agreement that caused you to refuse it?
 
moll780 said:
;
Would anyone put a deposit and sign a sales agreement without;
1. a pre-buy inspection?
2. viewing the aircraft in person?
3. flying the aircraft?
and/or
4. engaging with the owner/builder (I can think of a ton of good reasons why talking with the owner is both a benefit to the owner and potential buyer).

QUOTE]

To address the original questions,
I would not consider a pre purchase inspection until after I had seen the plane, or a trusted experienced friend had seen it.
It would have to pass that little test first. If you just hate it then no point in going farther. but I wouldn't pay up front just to take a peek. Makes me wonder what they are hiding.

To be prevented from viewing the plane, or signing an agreement just to see it. I would not walk away, I would run. There are some 9000 completed RVs out there. Keep looking.

Years ago before pre punched and quick build kits, we looked at some completed planes and partially built kits. Some were downright terrifying. So the older ones certainly need a closer look by a very experienced builder/mechanic.
We had the advantage of building in the hanger with a group of top notch builders and we made sure they were looking over our shoulder. When someone would fly in to visit, we would go out and look at their plane. the long time builders would discreetly point out different things about the plane. It was eye opening to say the least.
Click to expand...
 
AndyRV7 said:
You have the money. Do it the way YOU want!

Same experience with brokers here too. Not only do they prove to be a useless barrier between you and the seller, but I would argue that they actually detract from your ability to buy the plane. But I have high standards I guess.

Took me 3-4 years to find my plane. But when I did, I knew I was looking at it!
Click to expand...

Gee, sounds like real estate agents
 
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