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  #11  
Old 10-29-2021, 02:42 PM
Bavafa Bavafa is offline
 
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Location: Sacramento, CA
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I have installed mine using similar bracket mounted directly on the engine. The CUBE is mounted solidly and a bit farther away from the exhaust but I am not flying yet so we will see how it will fare. My last one was mounted per plan and it worked flawlessly.
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  #12  
Old 10-29-2021, 02:51 PM
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Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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Location: Dogwood Airpark (VA42)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PilotjohnS View Post
Carl,
I do like it better on the mount, away from the exhaust headers (but it is in the oil cooler outlet flow).
Do you think there is enough length for the engine SHAKES?
Regardless of where I choose to mount the sender,I will need new lines. This means 2 of the 4 fuel lines that were part of the Vans firewall forward kit will need to be changed. ugh
For my install the oil cooler is firewall mounted on the other side of the engine (see photo). But, compared to exhaust heat I'd suspect a baffle mounted cooler would not be an issue.

This mounting location is on the fuselage side of the engine, so engine vibration is much reduced (the reason for not mounting it on the engine).

Hoses are easy to make. Just buy the parts from Van's. I have never used the Van's Firewall Forward kit so can't comment on that.

Carl
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  #13  
Old 10-30-2021, 09:14 AM
TS Flightlines TS Flightlines is offline
 
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Scott---we havent heard of issues with the stock RV14 style of install either, and chose a similar location for the RV10, since the flow divider location was somewhat prohibitive to what we wanted to do. Seems to be just fine.

Carl---we HAVE seen similar anomaly readings from many different install locations, plumbing, K factors, etc, including making no difference in altitude. No changes (according to the Savvy analysis) on RPM, MAP, EGT, CHT Fuel Pressure, but the flow would drop from 6.5 at cruise to 4.7 and stay there. IO320 RV9A. This has all been fully documented in previous threads.
After moving the FT60 to different locations with assorted plumbing, things would seem normal for several flights, then just when you think that all is solved, the little gremlins come out again. Even after replacing the FT60 with another unit, and starting the location processes over again. So I'm still not convinced that one install location is superior to another or we would use it for all of our transducer installs.

Honestly, we looked at all the common parts and installs, and the only thing I personally could come up with was the ' avionics translation box" or what the real term is for the magic box that takes the cube data and translates it the EFIS screen. I say that, because the only ones we heard about had to do with a specific avionics system. I was 99% convinced it was the magic box-UNTIL, we got a report from a builder that had similar anomalous data, and he was using another well known avionics system. Shot my theory completely out of the water.

So what I'm saying from FACTS on MANY transducer installs in MANY different locations and plumbing, that it appears that the location and plumbing arent as critical and something within the avionics system. We have NO test beds---other than these particular clients aircraft to test locations and plumbing theories, but not running parallel avionics to see what the deal is. As Ive also said, we are OPEN to doing an install with someone that has a better idea, to provide a once and for all solution to all of this. Carl---you may be the guy--but apparently you too have been chasing this gremlin. I'm still pretty convinced its avionics but cant prove it.

Tom
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Teflon Hose Assemblies for Experimentals
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  #14  
Old 10-30-2021, 10:28 AM
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Carl Froehlich Carl Froehlich is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS Flightlines View Post
Carl---you may be the guy--but apparently you too have been chasing this gremlin. I'm still pretty convinced its avionics but cant prove it.

Tom
Tom,

We are in disagreement. Of all the elements associated fuel flow measurement, the avionics (digital) side presents the lowest probability of variance with changing conditions - it either works or does not work. Note - all my experience is with SkyView EMS, so I’m extrapolating to other similar EMS systems.

I suggest that cube location has multiple variables that without dedicated and well instrumented test stands we are only guessing at. Such as:
- Hose length to the cube and out of the cube.
- Hose bends
- Hose angles (WRT gravity)
- Fittings (stay away from 90 degree as I could only assume this induces some turbulent flow)
- Back pressure from the throttle body
- Heat
- Engine vibration

My experience is the conditions established a resonance that dominated the pulse sending from the cube to the EMS (as in the little wheel going around was no longer a strict function of fuel flow). But again, only guessing.

Bottom line is the majority of RV builders have not seen this problem mounting the cube on the engine. I did, and I found a repeatable process that solves the problem that should prove good for any RV install.

Carl
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  #15  
Old 10-30-2021, 11:16 AM
rapid_ascent rapid_ascent is offline
 
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Does anyone have a pic of the stock RV14 mount?

With my IO370, Superior cold sump, and FM150 it seems the fuel line from the pump transitions to the right side of the engine. I would like to mount my red cube down low in that line. I'm trying to figure out the best way to do that. It seems there is plenty of room to attach to the sump in some manner.
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  #16  
Old 10-30-2021, 11:35 AM
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rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapid_ascent View Post
...
With my IO370, Superior cold sump, and FM150 it seems the fuel line from the pump transitions to the right side of the engine. I would like to mount my red cube down low in that line. I'm trying to figure out the best way to do that. It seems there is plenty of room to attach to the sump in some manner.
You are right - there are lot of ways to do it. Here's one - see post #3:

https://vansairforce.net/community/s...d.php?t=160173
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  #17  
Old 10-30-2021, 12:21 PM
rapid_ascent rapid_ascent is offline
 
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Micky,

I'm thinking along these same general lines. Just curious, did you position the red cube that far forward just so you had better access? Also, I'm not sure how the forward most fuel line routes into the throttle body. Do you have a pic of that?
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2022 Donation Paid
Titan IOX-370, Dual PMAGs, 9.6:1 Pistons, FM-150
RV-7 Fuselage in progress
* Cabin Interior - In progress
RV-7 SB Wings
* Both Wings fully skinned
* Fuel Tanks Complete - No leaks finally
* Ailerons Complete
* Flaps Complete
RV-7 Empennage - Complete (a little fiberglass work left)
Vans Training Kit # 2 - Complete
RV-7 Preview Plans
Vans Training Kit #1 - Complete
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  #18  
Old 10-30-2021, 01:07 PM
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rv8ch rv8ch is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rapid_ascent View Post
Micky,

I'm thinking along these same general lines. Just curious, did you position the red cube that far forward just so you had better access? Also, I'm not sure how the forward most fuel line routes into the throttle body. Do you have a pic of that?
This might help a bit, I don't have another picture of that handy.

Click image for larger version

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I originally had a beautiful hose that went from the mechanical fuel pump direct to the fuel servo, and then decided to install the red cube after the mechanical fuel pump. So, I just stared at it for days on end to figure out the best place to put the red cube. I think this location was inspired by the RV-14 plans, but I may be mis-remembering this. Then I tried to figure out how to mount it. I decided I'd bolt it to the sump, but wasn't sure how. I decided to order the two hoses to replace the single long hose, and then fabricate the bracket to match the exact location of the red cube.

I was hoping to not have a red cube or other fuel flow transducer, since I was certain that the kind the F1 guys use - ultrasonic fuel flow sensors - would become available for us, but that has not yet happened.
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  #19  
Old 10-30-2021, 01:11 PM
TS Flightlines TS Flightlines is offline
 
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Carl----I agree to disagree, but thats ok too. With multiple installs in various locations and various different planes, the common factor between all of the different installs 'appeared' to be the avionics. So my theory did not match the results, so you have to believe the results and invent a new theory.

Your solution works on your plane, but as we know, experimentals have a mind of their own, and not built exactly the same.

So maybe one day we'll have a test bed plane to try ALL the variances, and see what happens.

Tom
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Joint Venture with Aircraft Specialty
Teflon Hose Assemblies for Experimentals
Proud Vendor for RV1, Donator to VAF
RV7A Tail Kit Completed, Fuse started-Pay as I go Plan, on hold while we develop new products for RV builders
Ridgeland, SC
www.tsflightlines.com, www.asflightlines.com
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  #20  
Old 10-30-2021, 01:20 PM
rapid_ascent rapid_ascent is offline
 
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Micky,

This is very helpful, thanks. I'm in the same situation. I have the hose that was delivered on the engine, but like you I'll need two new ones.
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2022 Donation Paid
Titan IOX-370, Dual PMAGs, 9.6:1 Pistons, FM-150
RV-7 Fuselage in progress
* Cabin Interior - In progress
RV-7 SB Wings
* Both Wings fully skinned
* Fuel Tanks Complete - No leaks finally
* Ailerons Complete
* Flaps Complete
RV-7 Empennage - Complete (a little fiberglass work left)
Vans Training Kit # 2 - Complete
RV-7 Preview Plans
Vans Training Kit #1 - Complete
EAA Sheet Metal Class - Complete
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