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Dimple cracking caused by laser cut holes

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jemer said:
I am wondering the same. RV-10 QB Fuse green tagged Exemplar Jan 2022 and QB Wings green tagged Exemplar April 2022.
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I’m recently retired and I’m at the beginning of the project, working on Emp/VS. I was doing a little thinking while exercising this afternoon and overlooking the QB Fuse and wings in the hangar. Since the timeframe of my QBs seem aligned with the laser cut issue, I continue to wonder if I have nothing to worry about or I have $50k of scrap. I’ve lost some motivation as well and there is really no way I’ll move forward integrating anything with the QBs at this point. I do have a flying A/C albeit a little slower and from the certified world, but it’s a good plane. Rhetorical question is why did I go down this path? There are many answers but here I am.

That said, I believe Van’s is trying to address this and ultimately will get it right. I’ll try to keep a positive attitude. I haven’t found any laser cut parts with the Emp kit and I’ll try to continue to work on it in the meantime, but I’m in no rush and nowhere near needing to do anything with the QBs.

edit: I damaged a VS rib and ordered a replacement. It came last week. Laser cut with scorch marks. Tagged 10/13/22
 
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Reported to Vans? - What do they say

Rather than post here, who has reported this to Vans and what have they said? I've had my RV14a kits for a while, only have finish kit to go and no sign of that notch on any of the final sized holes.
 
jemer said:
That said, I believe Van’s is trying to address this and ultimately will get it right.
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Van’s has always done the right thing in the end, though sometimes it’s taken awhile. At this point, with a new project ordered (but nothing as yet received), the only thing that will satisfy me is 100% of my parts punched in-house as it ever was. Anything short of that and I’m canceling my order and will move on to Plan B. Guys with existing projects underway, sub-kits already constructed, or QB kits on order or already received - well, you have my sympathies.

Again, it’s NOT about engineering at this point, as this debacle will haunt the future value of aircraft with laser cut components forever.
 
Again, it’s NOT about engineering
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Nope it ain’t, it’s another simple thing called QC.

This whole debacle is bad and costly, not only to Vans, but in return to the customers, us, present and future.
 
Is this only an issue with the final size kits?
I’m building an -8 which we have to drill to final size, and it has some laser cut parts in the fuselage. I can’t see any holes with notches in that need filing out, and certainly not when drilled to final size.
 
I am building a 9 and just got my wing kit. The flap spar is laser cut and some of the holes definitely have the indentations, particularly the #40 holes. They are big enough to catch the tip of my fine sharpie.
I have not yet match drilled so I don’t know if it will go away.
Manufacture date is 7/18/22.

Last night I also dug out the cutoffs for rudder and elevator stiffeners. Those were laser cut as well but the holes look round. These parts were delivered in May 2022 so must have been produced before that.
 

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Keep the reports coming Boys and Girls. This issue needs immediate addressing and no better way than to keep the issue front and center until resolved. I am really irritated at the lack of QC going on over at Vans. How in the world did all these flawed parts get sent out the door?

What are the odds some of the subassemblies we’ve already constructed will need to stripped for critical parts replacement? I’m not sure I would have it in me to take on such a task.

Iconically, one of the main reasons I’m building my RV10 is because I got sick of aging aircraft issues associated with the old certified planes. Airframe cracking being near the top of that list.
 
Jonnyb said:
Is this only an issue with the final size kits?
I’m building an -8 which we have to drill to final size, and it has some laser cut parts in the fuselage. I can’t see any holes with notches in that need filing out, and certainly not when drilled to final size.
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I'm in the same boat as Jonnyb. Received -8 fuselage kit February 2023 and only inventoried. Going to go take a look at a few items to see if holes are affected.
 
Tlrguy said:
What are the odds some of the subassemblies we’ve already constructed will need to stripped for critical parts replacement? I’m not sure I would have it in me to take on such a task.
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This is the part that I'm afraid a lot of people are missing from recent long update post, or that I just hope I'm wrong about. I don't get the same 'stepping up to the plate' vibe that others do.

It reads to me like what Van's is hoping to validate is that the cracks don't matter. They're planning to tell people to just build on. Cracks are fine. It's not the space shuttle.
 
Cracks

N8DAV8R said:
This is the part that I'm afraid a lot of people are missing from recent long update post, or that I just hope I'm wrong about. I don't get the same 'stepping up to the plate' vibe that others do.

It reads to me like what Van's is hoping to validate is that the cracks don't matter. They're planning to tell people to just build on. Cracks are fine. It's not the space shuttle.
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I was wondering the same, but there are still concerns.
MilSpec. We have all been taught to build to spec. If a filed hole ends uo out of spec, there's no dodging it.
Value. Builders with parts subject to the issue, may see lost value. Are they out of luck?
Delays. If any parts are recalled, wait times are really going to get long. Who gets parts first? Recall orders or new kits?
Just my rambling.
 
Report on my -14 build. Tail kit received 12/22.

Tail feathers are done and stowed. Have not looked at the stringers yet.
Tailcone stringers had small bumps in laser cut holes (not as bad as some pics).
A few strokes with a round needle file would smooth it out.
Dimpled stringers and riveted to bottom skin. No cracks observed thru light primer. Holding off on side stringers and skins for now.
 
It occurs to me that, henceforth, nobody will ever again buy a used RV without thoroughly documenting the presence (or otherwise) and condition of any laser cut parts. In effect, Van's has created a stratified market where planes with laser cut parts will be worth markedly less than planes built solely from punched parts.

Guys who've waited years and paid extra for QB kits containing laser cut parts (or who have already built those parts into completed sub-kits or flying airplanes) are seriously out of luck. How can they be made whole for both time and money?

I'm counting myself as extremely fortunate that I didn't get any further into my latest project before encountering this issue. If a friend hadn't pointed out the thread, I still wouldn't be any the wiser. Why is it buried in Tips/Techniques instead of in General Discussion where it belongs?
 
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Hate to say it, but this is what happens when you put a non-aviation professional (marketing/IT background) in charge of an aviation manufacturing company. Seen it over and over (does 737max ring any bells). Cost savings once again have taken priority over good engineering/quality control processes.
Personally, I think Van's should just agree to supply new kits to anyone with these parts in them, scrap all the laser cut parts/assemblies and then we can all move on.
This topic came up a LONG time ago and was ignored by Van's, I know I commented on this laser process long ago, but I think the thread may have been deleted (many of my posts get deleted because I'm often considered "controversial").
 
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Walt said:
Hate to say it, but this is what happens when you put a non-aviation professional (marketing/IT background) in charge of an aviation manufacturing company. Seen it over and over (does 737max ring any bells). Cost savings once again have taken priority over good engineering/quality control.

Personally, I think Van's should just agree to supply new kits to anyone with these parts in them, scrap all the laser cut parts and then we can all move on.
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Agreed 100%. That's what it's going to take and nothing less will do. A complete recall and scrapping of all laser cut parts (it doesn't matter a whit what the engineering reports eventually say), new kits and QBs to existing builders (with priority of delivery), and some level of additional compensation for lost/wasted time, if only to stave off the inevitable class action suit.

What a cluster***! This would never have happened in the old days when Tom Green and Ken Krueger were running things for Van.
 
MY 10 QB wings are currently in production and expected in Q4 this year. I'll be running the borescope everywhere I can once received. It seems like they should pause production on QB kits with laser cut parts until there is a resolution. I don't think I'm the only one that would wait longer for my kit to ensure the best quality.
 
In the past, Van's could be counted upon to do the right thing. To recap a little history for the newbies: many years ago, when I was building my first -8, John Morgan died (of an apparent wing failure) with a customer in the factory -8. Van's obtained a set of customer-built wings (to more closely represent the typical wings in the field), tested them to destruction, and published the detailed results. Needless to say, this wasn't required by law, but was simply the right thing to do. I (and many others like me) was vastly relieved by the results of that testing and went on to complete and fly my airplane.

Right now, all I'm hearing so far is doubling down on the engineering and some blather about how laser cut parts aren't necessarily always a problem. Really?!? Talk about entirely missing the point and perhaps even some deliberate obtuseness. This issue is not going to just go away. The consequences of choosing cost savings over sound engineering (back when it mattered to this issue) should have been obvious to those in charge. Perhaps it was and they made a rough calculus of the cost/benefit of each course of action and simply chose the cheaper path.

Though the airplanes still fly great, the company is clearly no longer what it was. The only thing that might effect a change is if they see that customers will no longer simply throw money at them absent any substantive accountability. If Van's were a public company, I'd be selling short on Wednesday, that's for sure, as the stock would be about to take a well-deserved bath.
 
Well, before declaring this company dead and buried, I think folks should wait for their final response and whatever potential resolution they come up with …
 
Walt said:
Seen it over and over (does 737max ring any bells). Cost savings once again have taken priority over good engineering/quality control processes.
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Yes, the B737 Max does ring a bell. To be fair though, Van's isn't very far along into the remedy process. Boeing spent more than a year trading up to bigger hammers in their headstrong attempt to beat a square peg into a round hole. Hoping that Van's skips ahead to the acceptance phase and replaces ALL laser cut components, STOPS laser cutting components, and puts this situation in the rearview mirror at Indy Car speed.
 
Laser Cut Parts

I’m hesitant to post in this string but when people are losing faith and trust in Vans I feel compelled to say something. I built my RV-4 back in the day so drilled my own holes and trust me they weren’t all perfect. I’m a potential RV-15 customer so the current production methods may yet affect me.
The thing I want to share is that in all my dealings with Vans, back when it was still being operated by Richard Van Grunsven who has an impeccable reputation for honesty and integrity recognized through out the amateur built world, this issue would not have progressed to this point. My suggestion is that current management let him be the spokesman for Vans Aircraft in addressing this issue as whatever engineering / PR message Dick shares after his careful analysis would be the gold standard that would restore any lost faith and trust.
 
I would like to propose that folks take a deep breath and stop sharpening the pitchforks. If this continues, this thread and any like it will very likely get killed.

Let’s keep it focused on the facts and continue to report what we see in our kits. Also make sure you are directly communicating with Vans since this is not an official support forum.

It is a very frustrating issue but let’s see what the action plan from Vans is before declaring war. That answer will not likely come while Vans is closed for the holiday so some patience will be required.

For me, I have a fuse kit in front of me with no questionable laser cut parts so I am building away on it. The wing kit I have does have some ribs that I am gonna ask to be replaced. The emp and tailcone had no questionable parts in them when I built them, so no harm no foul there.

Each situation will likely end up unique in how it is resolved. In the end Vans will have to live with the impact this issue will have on the company’s reputation. They can either make that impact positive or negative. I am sure they don’t want the latter……
 
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I’ve been all through my laser cut parts and can find no holes that look anything like the ones pictured here. No notches or anything like that.
Hopefully that means it’s an issue restricted to a small number of kits.
 
Time to stop bad mouthing Vans.
They started doing laser cut parts to satisfy demand , not to cut costs.
It is on the Jan 22 video. They bought new punch press units and are waiting for delivery.
They did engineering studies and concluded that laser cut parts can be done without weakening the metal and creating cracks.

Obviously, the outside vendor made some bad parts.
Sure , Vans should done better on CQ. This is a complicated business. You are going to have some problems now and then. How they handle it is what separates the men for the boys.

Stop freaking out. We don't even know the scope of the problem yet.
 
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Walt said:
Hate to say it, but this is what happens when you put a non-aviation professional (marketing/IT background) in charge of an aviation manufacturing company.
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Last time I checked Vans President and CEO is Rian Johnson a mechanical engineer and former Chief Engineer who has been with the company for over 20 years. I talked to him when he was designing the RV-10
 
Like most of us I am going to stand down my build and wait for Vans reply on this issue. I'm just about to start my wing kit which was delivered in April. I have numerous laser cut parts as they have no blue film, milky residue and some burn marks on them. Like JohnnyB, I have looked at them with a magnifying glass and the holes seem quite true. Once again, I'm curious if it is all laser cut parts or those from a certain vendor.? I also tried to slip a #40 bit through the holes on my ribs and noticed it wont go through anyhow so I will have to final drill.

Anxiously awaiting Van's reply.
 
terrye said:
Last time I checked Vans President and CEO is Rian Johnson a mechanical engineer and former Chief Engineer who has been with the company for over 20 years. I talked to him when he was designing the RV-10
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My bad.. Greg Hughes (COO) is the 'face' of Van's and the guy who I thought was running the day-to-day operations, he always responds on VAF so I "assumed" he was "the guy" in charge. Maybe we would all like to hear what RJ has to say in that case?
And please don't get me wrong, Van's has an amazing aircraft design, and it is very sad to see it's reputation be tarnished like this. I sincerely hope this gets resolved quickly and to everyone's satisfaction.
 
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Does anyone know if laser cutting is used anywhere else in the industry? If so, someone must have some data on older laser cut holes.
 
Walt said:
Hate to say it, but this is what happens when you put a non-aviation professional (marketing/IT background) in charge of an aviation manufacturing company.


(many of my posts get deleted because I'm often considered "controversial").
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Walt,
this is one of the most derogative, insensitive, unprofessional and inappropriate comments I have read on VAF. Not only that, it is 100% false. This goes beyond keeping it civil and crossed the line. Enough with the bashing. I wonder if you would say that to an individual's face or if the fact that you are behind a keyboard gave you the courage to make that statement.

I hope you have a chance to apologize in person for the words you chose to use while in the comfort of your space.

Maybe your posts get deleted not because they are controversial but perhaps because they are similar to the one you made above.

We read these forums and words have meanings.
 
This one’s locked!

[Agreed and thank you Paul (I was away from the keyboard). Van's will let us know when they have more. v/r,dr]
 
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Just FYI: Should have some info from the factory here in a bit. Hang tight gang - info coming.

v/r,dr
 
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