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RV12 Turn Backs

jrock836

Well Known Member
All of the talk about vapor lock got me to thinking about "turn backs". I personally haven't practiced turn backs in my RV12, but will certainly make a point of getting it done very soon(at a safe altitude of course).

It just so happens the recent May 2021 of EAA's Sport Aviation magazine had a really thought provoking article about turn backs.. They listed a data point for RV12 performance. If you get a chance to read the article, I highly recommend.

So how many of your guys have practiced turn backs? What's your average amount of lost altitude during a 270 degree turn? What's your turn back altitude and length of your runway? Based on the data in the article, it looks like I would need 450 ft AGL minimum, to manage a turn back to my 2000 FT runway and that's assuming the turn back can be done without losing more than 450 ft. and also assumes that I climbed out at Vx. Considering that I have open pasture land at the departure end of my most commonly used runway, if I were only at 450ft AGL, I would probably just continue straight and land on pasture land, rather than attempting the turn back even though a 450ft AGL turn back might be possible.. I need to practice and think more about it, but something like 600ft AGL might be a more realistic number for me to consider turning back.
 

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Considering that I have open pasture land at the departure end of my most commonly used runway, if I were only at 450ft AGL, I would probably just continue straight and land on pasture land, rather than attempting the turn back even though a 450ft AGL turn back might be possible..

You, sir, will live to fly another day ;)
 
Considering that I have open pasture land at the departure end of my most commonly used runway, if I were only at 450ft AGL, I would probably just continue straight and land on pasture land, rather than attempting the turn back even though a 450ft AGL turn back might be possible..

You, sir, will live to fly another day ;)

I hope so Bill... I hope so...
 
I've practiced turn backs in the RV-4. I can make it pretty easy from 500'. Turning into a crosswind makes it even better. You don't have to make it back to the runway, lots of open space inside the perimeter fence. The runway is also 6,000'. One end is good, open pasture, the other end isn't nothing but 20' Mesquite trees. Even if you end up running into the perimeter fence you are better off.
 
I've practiced turn backs in the RV-4. I can make it pretty easy from 500'. Turning into a crosswind makes it even better. You don't have to make it back to the runway, lots of open space inside the perimeter fence. The runway is also 6,000'. One end is good, open pasture, the other end isn't nothing but 20' Mesquite trees. Even if you end up running into the perimeter fence you are better off.

A 6000 ft runway gives you a lot more options, since you normally get to spend the last 2/3's+ of the runway climbing out.. I will hopefully get to move my plane off of its short 2000 ft grass runway one of these days. Patiently sitting on a wait list for a hanger somewhere else!
 
Turn backs

I practice turn backs at least once a month in my RV6A. I think it’s important to make a thirty degree turn as soon as you are at a safe altitude to do so. It gives you a big advantage on the turn. Don’t forget to count to five slowly before you do anything, takes that long to know something happened.
 
Mike Vaccaro ("Vac") has put together some good references on turnbacks in this post:


Not in an RV-12, but he also put together this video of a low altitude turn back in an RV-4 to demonstrate how useful AoA info can be in that situation:


Thanks.. Surprised by the number of negative comments in that thread. Had no idea it was such a controversial topic.. I wasn't trying to open another can of worms.. :)
 
I “practiced” this on 4-6-2021. See post #1 on Vapor Lock thread. This was actually the second time I have lost power on take-off (first time was with J-3 Cub about 15 years ago). Both times I had partial power and returned to runway with 180 low altitude turn. This latest “practice” with the RV-12, I actually had to slip with 100% crossed-controls to not overshoot the runway. Lots of instantaneous decision making. In both cases a passenger was onboard which adds significantly to the decision-making process. I can tell you there is an overwhelming desire to return to the runway if it appears you have sufficient height and energy reserve. When the engine stops making power while climbing out at low altitude, its imperative to push the nose over immediately to not loose valuable energy.

Probably more important than practicing 180 power-off turn at altitude is developing a repetitive habit of thinking through “What if the engine quits on this take-off” before pushing in the throttle. Also, talk through the possibilities with passengers. It’s good that everyone is one same page.
 
I “practiced” this on 4-6-2021. See post #1 on Vapor Lock thread. This was actually the second time I have lost power on take-off (first time was with J-3 Cub about 15 years ago). Both times I had partial power and returned to runway with 180 low altitude turn. This latest “practice” with the RV-12, I actually had to slip with 100% crossed-controls to not overshoot the runway. Lots of instantaneous decision making. In both cases a passenger was onboard which adds significantly to the decision-making process. I can tell you there is an overwhelming desire to return to the runway if it appears you have sufficient height and energy reserve. When the engine stops making power while climbing out at low altitude, its imperative to push the nose over immediately to not loose valuable energy.

Probably more important than practicing 180 power-off turn at altitude is developing a repetitive habit of thinking through “What if the engine quits on this take-off” before pushing in the throttle. Also, talk through the possibilities with passengers. It’s good that everyone is one same page.

Good comments and I agree 100%..
 
I don’t practice turn backs. My philosophy is if you haven’t reached pattern altitude pick a spot within45 degrees right or left of runway heading and go for it. Like anything that has to be tempered by the actual conditions.
 
I don’t practice turn backs. My philosophy is if you haven’t reached pattern altitude pick a spot within45 degrees right or left of runway heading and go for it. Like anything that has to be tempered by the actual conditions.

Serious obstacles both sides that will probably kill me and I'm at 800 AGL... Yep, I'm probably going to live or die after turning back.. A stall/spin will probably kill me too, thus why I think I will be practicing and learning my limits just in case. Like you said, actual conditions are important.. Clearly it's a personal decision and as mentioned before I guess it's pretty controversial decision too...
 
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I've practiced this a few times in my -12....I always use all the runway, no intersection T/O and use VX....I can safely turn back if at 400' agl using 45* of bank and have about 100' of spare altitude....but that's practice so I know what's coming....I use 1 notch of flaps for T/O and retract after 400' ...If your at an unfamiliar airport it's a good idea to have a what if plan....you should have one for the airfield you use regularly.
 
The point emphasized in the article is,
"In general, unless max rate of climb is dramatically higher than max glide
rate of descent, you will have a lot of difficulties getting back to the runway.
"
.
The force of impact goes up with the square of the ground speed. If the aircraft impacts an object,
the firewall will get pushed back twice as far at 60 MPH compared to at 40 MPH. If all other
factors are equal, then land into the wind, which is usually in front of you during takeoff, not behind.
 
The OP stated that the Sport Aviation article pertaining to the turn back was in the May 2021 issue.
It is actually in the May 2020 issue. The title of the article is, "So, You Think You Can Make a 180 Back?"


I think he was referring to the article "So Where Does Your Airplane Land?" on pg 36 of the May 2021 issue.
 
I suggest watching some of Dan Gryder's videos. He provides excellent content about the impossible turn and lowering the nose when an engine quits. He also talks about DMMS, defined minimum maneuvering speed. It is 1.414 times your clean stall speed. I have calculated that as 65 kts in my 12. I have a Dynon Skyview HDX and I have entered it under MCA. So when I slow down, a small red line appears at 65 kts. It is a great reminder. Dan Gryder says do not go below that speed until you are lined up with the runway on final and it will save your life. I know you can safely fly the 12 slower, but this is a good rule of thumb that will save peoples lives if they follow. Far too many pilots kill themselves because of a stall spin after losing an engine or after just getting too slow at low altitudes.
 
I suggest watching some of Dan Gryder's videos. He provides excellent content about the impossible turn and lowering the nose when an engine quits. He also talks about DMMS, defined minimum maneuvering speed. It is 1.414 times your clean stall speed. I have calculated that as 65 kts in my 12. I have a Dynon Skyview HDX and I have entered it under MCA. So when I slow down, a small red line appears at 65 kts. It is a great reminder. Dan Gryder says do not go below that speed until you are lined up with the runway on final and it will save your life. I know you can safely fly the 12 slower, but this is a good rule of thumb that will save peoples lives if they follow. Far too many pilots kill themselves because of a stall spin after losing an engine or after just getting too slow at low altitudes.

Normally I'm at about 65 kts as I turn base to final, and I try to be at 60 kts as I cross the numbers.. From that point on my eyes are looking outside and the rest is feel after that! :)

Dan Gryder, yeah I happened across one of his videos a week or two ago? He might be a very knowledgeable, experienced and skilled pilot, but I just can't watch him anymore on youtube, good video on Turn Backs or not... Maybe it's just a personality thing, but he comes off the wrong way for me to learn much of anything from him.. His ridiculous melodramatic "Probable Cause" rants that went on and on and on during his TBM ditching video, was just too much for me.. I think he's up to 3 videos of ranting on that topic now..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVFwYqueJ58&t=37s

EDIT.. Okay I gave Gryder a try again.. I found him pretty interesting in CFI/CFII training videos.. Guess I'm just not a fan of his "Probable Cause Investigations"..

https://www.flyingmag.com/flight-chops-ga-four-big-failures/
 
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Picking a nit...

I really wish we, as pilots (and some writers), would get out of the habit of calling this turn a "180". As we know, it's NOT... more like a 270 (as the OP noted). Some newer pilots may have not thought this through, and I would hate to think we inadvertently lead someone to get the wrong idea by not being precise.

And now, back to nutplates vs platenuts. :)
 
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The RV-12 can make a full turn back and land on the departure end of the runway from just under 500', power off. It worked out great. As a matter of fact, I was a little high, so it can probably be done lower.
 
Ron,

Just like my statement about not trying it if I was below pattern altitude, there are always variables like wind and obstructions. Also remember practicing with an idling engine is not the same as windmilling a pop on a dead engine or with a stopped prop.

Rich
 
The RV-12 can make a full turn back and land on the departure end of the runway from just under 500', power off. It worked out great. As a matter of fact, I was a little high, so it can probably be done lower.

Power off - meaning idle or prop not turning? 500 AGL isn’t a lot to work with when decisions don’t get made as quickly as they should.

Thinking back now to when I experienced vapor lock on departure a few weeks ago… there are several questions that I can’t answer:

What altitude was I at? I’m guessing 500’ – I hadn’t turned crosswind yet. Everything happened so fast. There is an uncontrollable urge to save the airplane and not land off-runway. This isn’t good especially with a passenger onboard.

Why turn to the left? I think this is natural reaction. It would be better to turn into a crosswind, but better for familiarity and pilot’s perspective, to turn left.

How to judge altitude and glide slope? I have flown my airplane 600 hours. I think the best scenario for safety is being current, current in type, and most important, current in exact airplane. Also, always fly with precision. Good pattern work – 90 degree turns with drift killed on each leg, on speed, stabilized approach with trimmed pitch before turning base leg. When engine suddenly stops making power, it takes a bunch of seconds, even after turning and lining up with runway, to determine glide slope. Decisions made under these trying circumstances, is not always an accurate assessment.
 
The RV-12 can make a full turn back and land on the departure end of the runway from just under 500', power off. It worked out great. As a matter of fact, I was a little high, so it can probably be done lower.


When you talk about the RV12 being capable of doing a turn back from 500 ft and landing on the departure end of the runaway, I think there's some variables that could make a differene..

When one talks about being able to do a turn back and land on the departure end of a runway, defining the length of the runway and climb out rate/angle and wind speed/angle is critically important. It's one thing to say that an RV12 can take off from a 7000 ft. runway, climb out at Vx, wind speed 10 kts. straight down the runway and then be able to turn back from 500 ft. In this scenario you might still be over the runway when you turn back.

It's a completely different animal to take off from a 1500 ft. runway, dead calm wind, and climb out at something other than Vx and turn back at 500 ft. In this scenario you might be well past the departure end of the runway and have no hope of getting back to the runway. Yes, you might be high enough to get turned back around, but not enough altitude to make it back to the runway.

I think it's important to figure out two things when it comes to turn backs.

#1 - Learn exactly how much altitude you need to execute a 270 degree turn in your aircraft, starting from your Vx speed.

#2 - Learn exactly how much altitude you need to execute a 270 degree turn from Vx speed AND be able to get back to the runway you just took off from based on your local weather conditions and specific runway lengths.

The two altitudes will not be the same.

I'm looking forward to spending several hours practicing all of this, learning my altitudes and speeds, practicing pushing forward without hesitation if the engine does anything out of the norm during Vx climb out and gain some confidence once I get my plane put back together after I finish the Condition Inspection.
 
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