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Please tell me this part is ruined so I can move on

RayJr

Active Member
I think I really did it this time. This is the trailing edge of my rudder. I popped that extra hole in there accidentally. Maybe time for new glasses.

I tried expanding the proper hole to a #30 and re-dimpled to see how it would look but obviously it did not help. I'm about to order a new skin, unless there is some method of saving this one to which I am unaware.

Thanks for the insight as always
 

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Is it just the skin? If so, you might me OK structurally/accepted methods wise.

IF you have 4.5D between fasteners (after addition as follows) you could place a rivet on each side. Rivet the f-ed hole with a #4 and apply cosmetics. Only 3D for non-CS fasteners.
 
Salvageable...I think.

Try this -- Mash the dimple flat with the flat sets (you do have flat sets, right?).

Dress (debur) the correct hole, dimple the correct hole.

Assemble trailing edge as per plans - once done, fill in the remaining "snow man" with some epoxy/resin filler (west systems 105/206 + milled fiber filler). Sand/paint to match.
 
Egg hole

Ask Vans. They are the structural authority.
Maybe they suggest an extra rivet either side.
Document their response in your log if it's a fix.
Or
Order new parts.
 
Please help me understand why....

Dan and Bill,

Please help me understand why the skin should be replaced. I am NOT questioning your judgment, just trying to learn.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Dan and Bill,

Please help me understand why the skin should be replaced. I am NOT questioning your judgment, just trying to learn.

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,

It's damaged beyond reasonable repair. Sure, you can hack it, but have some pride, skins are cheap. Won't be the first one you replace. By the time you stress over it you could have it replaced and moved on to something else comforted that you did quality work.

Bill
 
You're gonna need scrap aluminum for various things - I used a fuse skin I hosed for dozens of little projects. Still using it on home projects to this day.

Welcome to the club <g>.
 
Could you use it, yes. Simply put a rivet on either side. Structurally it's fine.

The bigger questions is, do you want to see it? You might be able to make a perfect repair...maybe not.

When I built my -6 I had an extra elevator and aileron at the end of the project. Remember, you are building for education and recreation. Consider this part of your education.
 
Skin

How much (ballpark) do replacement skins like this cost?

Ballpark? $50 plus shipping.
I've replaced a couple skins here and there. Personally, I prefer the replacement option. The abandoned skins are excellent for fabricating stuff.
 
Ballpark? $50 plus shipping.
I've replaced a couple skins here and there. Personally, I prefer the replacement option. The abandoned skins are excellent for fabricating stuff.

The OP is in Canada, so I can't imagine shipping is less than $50 for a part of that size, eventhough it weighs nothing. I sent a tiny box to canada and it was $20. It weighed 7 oz.
 
The OP is in Canada, so I can't imagine shipping is less than $50 for a part of that size, eventhough it weighs nothing. I sent a tiny box to canada and it was $20. It weighed 7 oz.
And 2 weeks plus for travel time
 
You are your own best QA person. I discovered, if I'm still not happy with the results after a few days to cool down, I bite the bullet and order a re-do.
 
I can Appreciate That

Bill said,

It's damaged beyond reasonable repair. Sure, you can hack it, but have some pride, skins are cheap. Won't be the first one you replace. By the time you stress over it you could have it replaced and moved on to something else comforted that you did quality work.​

Agreed. I've replaced skins (2 thus far - kept and have used them loads of times). Just wanted to make sure I understood.

Cheers!
Mike
 
Ray
Where on the trailing edge is the damage? Many RVs require a trim wedge on their rudders, possibly you could hide the damage with this if it is in the middle 1/3 of the TE vertical height. (check other local RVs to see where they have trim wedges installed.
If this is feasible, I'd cautiously install the oops rivet in the hole & continue on.
 
Ray
Where on the trailing edge is the damage? Many RVs require a trim wedge on their rudders, possibly you could hide the damage with this if it is in the middle 1/3 of the TE vertical height. (check other local RVs to see where they have trim wedges installed.
If this is feasible, I'd cautiously install the oops rivet in the hole & continue on.

Hi Ralph,
Good idea. It is in the upper 1/3 unfortunately.
 
I did something like this too

When I had a a similar issue. I contacted Van’s and they said to get a new part. Since I was so early in my education I went ahead a did as told. In the end I am glad I replaced the part. I never have to wonder if i made the right choice.
 
Mike,

It's damaged beyond reasonable repair. Sure, you can hack it, but have some pride, skins are cheap. Won't be the first one you replace. By the time you stress over it you could have it replaced and moved on to something else comforted that you did quality work.

Bill

Sorry, but there is almost certainly a reasonable repair here, and it is well documented. Search "figure 8 hole". I would check with Vans RE the location, but susoect it would be ok.

Everyone's circumstances are different and new builders deserve to know what the options are. If I had replaced a skin it would have cost me hundreds of dollars. We aren't all made of money.
 
lets have a reasonable discussion of what is going on here.

the most important thing is safety. yes, this is a repairable part. details of spacing, and methods are spelled out in 43.13.

i would expect vans to recommend replacement, as that is the best recommendation for them, considering liability, which, is the driving factor in most companies.

the next consideration is cosmetic. if it bothers you, then replace the part.


my personal choice would be replacement just for that reason.

my point is, builders are here to learn, giving an answer of, just replace without explaining why, or pointing to the data available does not help in the learning process. a copy of ac43.13 should be in any hanger that has a toolbox in it. sections of it should be required reading before ever picking up a rivet gun.

bob burns
RV-4 n82rb
 
You know what's a for sure reasonable repair? New skin.

Replacing the skin is the most certain option, but at a cost. There may be other less costly but equally sound options i.e. repairing the damaged part. Understanding that there are options comes with experience. Those of us who live further out in the universe are motivated to explore these options because of the exponential cost and time for shipping parts across the galaxy. ;)
 
Not so fast,,, set that Rudder aside, just get the new skin thrown in with your wing / fuselage kit , at the end of the project you’re probably going to already spend 10% on shipping from Oregon and Beyond to Ontario, unless you own shares in UPS or USPS !!
Remember to use USPS when ever possible to avoid the large brokerage fees we like to avoid !!
 
Wing crate

Not so fast,,, set that Rudder aside, just get the new skin thrown in with your wing / fuselage kit , at the end of the project you’re probably going to already spend 10% on shipping from Oregon and Beyond to Ontario, unless you own shares in UPS or USPS !!
Remember to use USPS when ever possible to avoid the large brokerage fees we like to avoid !!

Excellent idea.
 
Official Response from Vans

I heard back from Vans.

They said this can be fixed in the following way:

- Flatten out the whole area,
- Re-dimple so that it is perfectly centered with the parts it's being riveted to.
- Use pro-seal instead of two sided tape for the trailing edge.
- Once complete, fill with 2-part automotive filler and sand smooth.

The pro-seal is the primary solution as it creates a bond around the whole area so the rivet isn't doing all the work as well as fills the extra space.

Additionally, If it weren't a trailing edge with a wedge inside, additional rivets could be added equidistant between the problem area and the next rivets in each direction. Because it is a wedge that is partially hollow you can't add rivets beyond the pre-drilled holes.
 
Doesnt the rudder trailing edge use the wedge filler piece? And some adhesive like proseal or VHB tape?

If you plan on a polished plane, this may show up as a small blemish. For a painted plane, most likely not.

Methinks this is not a structural issue but a cosmetic one. But, as always the factory is the authority on such things.
 
Dan and Bill,
Please help me understand why the skin should be replaced.

Sorry Mike, missed your question.

Strictly speaking, replacing it is not required. As others have noted, sometimes there is a good reason to simply repair and move on. However, this is a tail skin. It's early in the game, and the replacement part is cheap when compared to the dollars yet to be spent. Ordering a new skin is more about personal standards than structure, sort of a line in the sand you draw for yourself. Hopefully the builder draws it some distance from the other lines, drawn by others, beyond which they will not bet life or treasure.
 
You're the builder!

Try this -- Mash the dimple flat with the flat sets (you do have flat sets, right?).

Dress (debur) the correct hole, dimple the correct hole.

Assemble trailing edge as per plans - once done, fill in the remaining "snow man" with some epoxy/resin filler (west systems 105/206 + milled fiber filler). Sand/paint to match.

Ditto - If you use proseal for the wedge it will be self filling and that extra hole will have a very minimal effect on strength when bonded to the wedge. Smooth and sand with filler and paint, if you are going for perfection buy a skin, I bought 2 new rudder skins due to my inexperience with the edge forming tool. But as always see what Vans has to say they are the strength gurus.
 
Ditto - If you use proseal for the wedge it will be self filling and that extra hole will have a very minimal effect on strength when bonded to the wedge. Smooth and sand with filler and paint, if you are going for perfection buy a skin, I bought 2 new rudder skins due to my inexperience with the edge forming tool. But as always see what Vans has to say they are the strength gurus.

I posted the response from Vans a few posts ago. Very similar to this
 
thanks for the feedback from Vans Ray :)

Always something to learn... the problem is being at an age where you forget more things in one day than you learn, go figure :eek:
 
I always kept a "next order from Vans" shopping list next to my build log. Whenever I made a mistake I just added the part to the list. Batching them up like this (or waiting for the next kit, as elev666 suggested) helps save on shipping.

Never be shy about asking Vans. Builder support is part of the price of these kits. I've asked them so many questions they are probably tired of hearing from me. I also decided early on that my personal minimums were: 1. If it's a control surface or major structural piece, replace it even if it can be repaired, and 2. Otherwise try the repair first. Not flying yet, so I guess we'll see if that served me well. Based on these minimums, I had to replace my incorrectly built longerons, which was painful.
 
This thread is a perfect example of why I spend very little time here anymore. The "oh my GOD! You better not do that or you'll end up in a smoking hole.", or "if you had ANY SELF RESPECT AT ALL you wouldn't even think of trying to repair that!" responses don't do anyone any good at all. It took quite a while before someone with a reasoned educational answer spoke up. I'm glad they did though. The fact is that if the oops is repairable, it's repairable. If the builder opts to do that rather than throwing money at it, that's his option. He's neither foolish or necessarily sloppy with the decision. Ya'all should try presenting his options without the pre-judgement. Much more effective.
 
This thread is a perfect example of why I spend very little time here anymore. The "oh my GOD! You better not do that or you'll end up in a smoking hole.", or "if you had ANY SELF RESPECT AT ALL you wouldn't even think of trying to repair that!" responses don't do anyone any good at all. It took quite a while before someone with a reasoned educational answer spoke up. I'm glad they did though. The fact is that if the oops is repairable, it's repairable. If the builder opts to do that rather than throwing money at it, that's his option. He's neither foolish or necessarily sloppy with the decision. Ya'all should try presenting his options without the pre-judgement. Much more effective.

Jesse:

Thank you for posting what I was thinking.
 
Jesse my friend, methinks you were having a bad day.

Opinion is unavoidable here. I don't think anyone offered judgement. There are valid arguments for both repair and replacement. Different builders will be inclined toward one or the other for different reasons, and for some it will be a coin flip.

On an entirely practical level, structural issues should usually go to the Vans tech line, while suggesting a new skin is a no-question-about-it, now and forever.

Speaking for myself, I'll encourage perfection, even if impossible to achieve. I've simply seen too many projects where things went down a slippery slope.

Aim high. Remember, half the RV fleet is below average.
 
This thread is a perfect example of why I spend very little time here anymore. The "oh my GOD! You better not do that or you'll end up in a smoking hole.", or "if you had ANY SELF RESPECT AT ALL you wouldn't even think of trying to repair that!" responses don't do anyone any good at all. It took quite a while before someone with a reasoned educational answer spoke up. I'm glad they did though. The fact is that if the oops is repairable, it's repairable. If the builder opts to do that rather than throwing money at it, that's his option. He's neither foolish or necessarily sloppy with the decision. Ya'all should try presenting his options without the pre-judgement. Much more effective.

There’s a strong argument to be made that time is money and replacement is better than repair. I don’t see much judgement, just ideas and opinions. And he did, after all, ask.

Personally, I welcome judgement, it’s not a bad thing, how else am I to improve?
 
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Agree

This thread is a perfect example of why I spend very little time here anymore. The "oh my GOD! You better not do that or you'll end up in a smoking hole.", or "if you had ANY SELF RESPECT AT ALL you wouldn't even think of trying to repair that!" responses don't do anyone any good at all. It took quite a while before someone with a reasoned educational answer spoke up. I'm glad they did though. The fact is that if the oops is repairable, it's repairable. If the builder opts to do that rather than throwing money at it, that's his option. He's neither foolish or necessarily sloppy with the decision. Ya'all should try presenting his options without the pre-judgement. Much more effective.

One reason why I'm very careful what I ask and how I reply.
Also why I started a Colorado RV forum.
No offense. I still donate.
 
It's early in the game, and the replacement part is cheap when compared to the dollars yet to be spent. Ordering a new skin is more about personal standards than structure, sort of a line in the sand you draw for yourself.

I agree entirely. The personal standard you set at the start for the empennage is your benchmark for the whole aircraft. Compromise here to save a paltry few dollars and you're setting a very low standard.

Anyway, it's good to see that the OP bought a replacement skin. That to me says a lot about the quality of the plane he aspires to build.

The "should I bash it out and build on" thread is one of the most common threads on VansAirforce. I tend to think that the advice given by individual posters most probably tends to simply reflect the build quality of their own aircraft. Dan and Doug say in this case to replace the skin....I tend to assume from this attitude that Dan and Doug have probably built above average aircraft. It's that simple. Those who say bash it out and build on to save a few dollars...well that probably tends to reflect the quality of their aircraft too. ;)
 
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Speaking for myself, I'll encourage perfection, even if impossible to achieve. I've simply seen too many projects where things went down a slippery slope.

Perfection can also be the enemy of progress, but I admit that the couple times I decided to repair something it only lasted a few days before I couldn't stand it anymore and replaced it anyway. :rolleyes:
 
I think a lot of the people who champion "no repairs, always replace, build it perfect" would be shocked at how many of these little repairs are scattered all throughout every brand-new certified airplane. Holes get misdrilled, parts get mislocated, tools get dropped... there are entire departments at airframe manufacturers whose sole job is coming up with and implementing fixes for things like that, so parts and assemblies don't get scrapped.

My position is, if a repair is feasible, I'm doing the repair. My goal is airworthy, not award-winning; unnecessary replacement is more than just money--it's time (possibly a couple hours of re-prepping the part) and another opportunity to make a different mistake.
 
Totally agree

My position is, if a repair is feasible, I'm doing the repair. My goal is airworthy, not award-winning; unnecessary replacement is more than just money--it's time (possibly a couple hours of re-prepping the part) and another opportunity to make a different mistake.

Well said.
 
I agree entirely. The personal standard you set at the start for the empennage is your benchmark for the whole aircraft. Compromise here to save a paltry few dollars and you're setting a very low standard.

Anyway, it's good to see that the OP bought a replacement skin. That to me says a lot about the quality of the plane he aspires to build.

The "should I bash it out and build on" thread is one of the most common threads on VansAirforce. I tend to think that the advice given by individual posters most probably tends to simply reflect the build quality of their own aircraft. Dan and Doug say in this case to replace the skin....I tend to assume from this attitude that Dan and Doug have probably built above average aircraft. It's that simple. Those who say bash it out and build on to save a few dollars...well that probably tends to reflect the quality of their aircraft too. ;)

My problem with this thread is that choosing to make a structurally acceptable repair over replacement implies a compromise in build quality, or ‘bashing it out’. The only time I would use language like that is if someone choose an unapproved repair or simply ignored a mistake.

Some of my most rewarding build experiences have been making a difficult, structurally approved repair. That also is the trademark of a craftsman. IMHO.
 
I feel a bit bad for the OP because he is new to VAF and building and has asked for some advice and ultimately received a few options. But the thread seems to have morphed into a form of the "primer" wars, this time it's about "repair wars".

I don't see anything wrong with doing a repair that is safe and sound and there are good references such as AC 43.13 for guidance. The older kit parts themselves were sometimes not perfect and needed to be "repaired" before they could be used, nevertheless there are many thousands of -3s, -4s and -6s that got completed and fly safely. Isn't the aim of this hobby to learn something, have fun, be safe and create something that we're proud of? The end result doesn't have to be free of the odd blemish, in fact it's probably impossible to be "perfect".

To the OP; hang in there, don't be put off! :D
 
I think a lot of the people who champion "no repairs, always replace, build it perfect" would be shocked at how many of these little repairs are scattered all throughout every brand-new certified airplane. Holes get misdrilled, parts get mislocated, tools get dropped... there are entire departments at airframe manufacturers whose sole job is coming up with and implementing fixes for things like that, so parts and assemblies don't get scrapped.

Bob,

This isn’t the case at Raytheon. I visited the Raytheon factory many times where Air Force T-1’s and T-6’s were/are built to pick up new aircraft and ones that were modified and upgraded. I’ve seen their scrap bin. In most cases I had difficulty finding a flaw. When it was pointed out to me, the flaws seemed quite insignificant. I could easily say that most builders would have built on with what I saw. The parts with mis-drilled holes, mis-located parts, and damaged from dropped tools absolutely ended up in the scrap heap.

I’ve gotten several awards over the years for workmanship, etc. and I know I didn’t achieve the level of perfection coming out of that factory. I was duly impressed.
 
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Gents, read the thread title again.

Dan, I feel the thread title has become obsolete. The problem with simply replying only to the OP is that he is not going to be the only person reading this thread. The OP was obviously already leaning towards replacement, but we very quickly saw other builders chime in to ask why exactly was replacement necessary. Then you get a post or two that are just flat out wrong and the original title just doesn’t matter any more. Getting full and correct information out to current, as well as future builders is important. This thread will be archived and could come up in searches for years to come.
 
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