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Best way to keep people off your plane?

I have to admit being a little conflicted here.

The obvious proper reaction is we should abhor the idea of people doing damage to our aircraft and take the obvious reasonable steps to keep ignorant people away.

On the other hand, as Brad properly noted, fly-ins ARE opportunities to introduce people to our passion in the hope that they'll (a)understand it and (b) adopt it in our own self interest.

The attitude we bring to that is the one the non-pilot/kids are going to take away about aviation.

There's a happy medium here.
 
A few years ago our team took our flight into a local airport for a public 'airport days' fly-in. We parked our aircraft next to some other RV's and took turns guarding the hardware.

I discovered one kid hanging off the prop of our flight lead's RV. I gently educated the mother on how dangerous it was to be paying around airplanes... the engine could start, or a spark could ignite fuel vapours, or that smoker over there sitting under the wing.... oh shzt!

A grown man had set up his lawn chair next to an RV, within 24 inches of a dripping fuel vent. The grass was dry and crispy and he was smoking a cigarette! At that point, I simply asked him to never smoke on the airside of an airport, and the example I used was the dripping avgas on the grass next to his chair. To his credit, he extinguished his cigarette, but I kept my eye on him for quite a while.

At this point, I have a policy of never going to a fly-in event where the general public has access to the aircraft unless I am prepared to guard my own aircraft the whole time or there are ground crew to do the same.

On the other hand, I am participating in a "Young Eagles" style event next month where kids and parents will be introduced to the magic of flight... complete with ground school training about aircraft and flying and with adult supervision.

It's perfectly acceptable if you see a kid with parents at one of these events to invite them to have a closer look. Begin with the safety briefing (prop, dripping fuel etc.), follow up with how easy aircraft are to damage and give them the professional treatment and a photo op. If enough of us do this, the kids and parents will learn how to behave around aircraft, and maybe tell their friends, too.

It would also be nice if the organizers of these events have group 'ground school' for the families... 5 minute safety briefing and they get a pin!

...The worst incident I had of disrespect was from a fellow RV pilot at a local fly-in. All of the aircraft were lined up tail-to-tail in rows and this fellow decided to do his runup while still in line. My aircraft was directly behind his, and several of my friends were frantically signalling to this fellow to cut his engine, while others were trying to stabilize my RV. We now park the aircraft differently at this event.
 
Constructively educate

Although not yet an aircraft owner, as a builder, I have no difficulty whatsoever understanding the point of view (and rage) of the owner returning to his or her aircraft and spotting a toddler running across the wing. But I also suspect that this kind of rude and dangerous behavior on the part of the parent is not malicious, just ignorant.

So it is at times such as these that the aircraft owners have a responsibility to the pilot community to summon their 'pilot nerves of steel' and with as much calmness and cheerfulness they can muster, approach the offending individuals. If we ask for their cooperation first, in the most friendly way possible, I'll bet we succeed most of the time. Of course this requires someone to stand guard all of the time which is understandably, a problem.

I've attended airshows where all of the aircraft were behind ropes and my impression is that this lessens experience for the visitor. At least this was the effect it had on me. It is understandable, but unfortunate, as being up close to see the fine mechanical detail is a lot of the fun.

My concern here is that we really can't afford to alienate anyone when we are losing pilots and airports at such an alarming rate. We need as many people as possible attending air shows and flyins -- even the dumb ones!
 
joe_rainbolt said:
....We need as many people as possible attending air shows and flyins -- even the dumb ones!
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Are you thinking that the dangers will cause the dumb ones to suffer attrition?

So maybe we should post a sign: "Darwin Test Ahead - Numerous Hazards Including Irate Pilots and Dangerous Airplanes."

Kind of hate to have my airplane participate in the weeding out of them, though.

Dave
 
Young Eagles and other events where the point is to invite the public for a supervised, one-on-one educational introduction to flying are on one end of the spectrum. The people with zero respect for others who come to fly-ins and feel entitled to use aircraft as jungle gyms without asking are on the other end. I think we can afford to alienate the latter group! The question is how to do it effectively without chasing the well-meaning people away and/or getting arrested for battery. :eek:

That said-- The most amazing thing I've ever seen at an airshow was at Oshkosh in 2003. Jim Wright had his stunning hand-crafted Hughes H-1 racer parked on Aeroshell Square and was letting anyone walk right up to it and touch it. It was polished to perfection, to this day the most beautiful airplane I've ever seen. I certainly would not have the guts to risk that for my airplane, but a lot of people appreciated it.
 
LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
I have to admit being a little conflicted here.

The obvious proper reaction is we should abhor the idea of people doing damage to our aircraft and take the obvious reasonable steps to keep ignorant people away.

On the other hand, as Brad properly noted, fly-ins ARE opportunities to introduce people to our passion in the hope that they'll (a)understand it and (b) adopt it in our own self interest.

The attitude we bring to that is the one the non-pilot/kids are going to take away about aviation.

There's a happy medium here.
Click to expand...

The air show I referenced earlier was at the D-M base in Tucson.

The RV owner thought that the selling of beer to the public might have made things worse when it comes to parental control....:rolleyes:

It might be better to stick to "dry" fly-ins if you display your plane.
 
LettersFromFlyoverCountry said:
That's what you get for getting your airplane all gorgeous and everything. If you'd just built it like cr*P like I told you, this wouldn't be a problem. :D

Where was this fly-in?
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Come on, Bob - I tried to build it like cr*p. I can't do anything right. :(


This was at the Owatonna fly-in on Sunday, organized by the CAP.
 
I have to deal with it with two different groups, airplanes and cars. It doesn't matter if its a car show with the vette or an airshow with the RV it seems to be the same. at free, open to the public events the uneducated seem to come out in droves, and at a paid event it seems to be a bit better. The best solution for both seems to be park in groups and take turns standing guard.

it is amazing the amount of people that have no respect for other peoples property.

the best response I have heard was years ago at reno, we were towing a seafury out for a race and trying to get the crowd to move back so we could pull it out on the ramp. when the wing walker asked some smart a.. to move back he asked "what happens if you hit me with it?" her response was, "you cant afford what it would cost to fix the plane".

bob burns
N82RB RV-4
 
If it helps....

At our big YE event and airport open house everyone working as ground crew has an old-fashioned police/sports referee whistle. They're encouraged to use it anytime they need to get a visitor's attention, mostly clearing taxiways and guarding aircraft movements. However, it also includes people getting a little too friendly with the parked airplanes. The nice thing about the whistle is you don't have to scold anyone verbally; just toot and motion with a hand from a distance. Everyone turns to look, so the offender gets a little dose of public peer pressure and the onlookers get the lesson...don't touch.
 
I bought this not-so-subtle sign that is now hanging in my shop. I plan on taking it to the hanger when I move into one. After reading this thread, I may take it to air shows and post it next to my plane. It always gets laughs from visitors, yet conveys an important message at the same time.

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Dan,
This is a really good idea. I'm going to use it.
Thanks,

Dennis

DanH said:
If it helps....

At our big YE event and airport open house everyone working as ground crew has an old-fashioned police/sports referee whistle. They're encouraged to use it anytime they need to get a visitor's attention, mostly clearing taxiways and guarding aircraft movements. However, it also includes people getting a little too friendly with the parked airplanes. The nice thing about the whistle is you don't have to scold anyone verbally; just toot and motion with a hand from a distance. Everyone turns to look, so the offender gets a little dose of public peer pressure and the onlookers get the lesson...don't touch.
Click to expand...
 
DanH said:
The nice thing about the whistle is you don't have to scold anyone verbally; just toot and motion with a hand from a distance. Everyone turns to look...
Click to expand...

...at the dork with the whistle!


Everyone is different, but I'd rather take the direct confrontation approach than being "that guy" with the whistle. :D
 
You can't fix stupid.

Long, long ago I brought a F-16 to a military air show for static display. I was talking to some folks and turned just in time to catch an "adult" male with a cigarette in his mouth trying to pry the cap off the external wing tank. I made sure he was ejected from the air show grounds. :D
 
I have a friend in my past EAA chapter who had something that seemed to work. He took some home made posts made out of pvc pipe and put them around his airplane and put "caution" tape completely around the plane using the posts. It is some trouble but it worked.
 
marv1121 said:
I have a friend in my past EAA chapter who had something that seemed to work. He took some home made posts made out of pvc pipe and put them around his airplane and put "caution" tape completely around the plane using the posts. It is some trouble but it worked.
Click to expand...

Better yet, "crime scene" or "police line, do not cross" would probably do well.
 
When they ask what the Police Line is for, tell them "the last person who touched the plane..."
 
LOL!
I even have a reflective vest and some high black socks to complete the look. :)


DM

Toobuilder said:
...at the dork with the whistle!


Everyone is different, but I'd rather take the direct confrontation approach than being "that guy" with the whistle. :D
Click to expand...
 
We hung a very official "Seized by the IRS" sign on a buddy's airplane at SERFI some years ago. People were walking around that Swift like it had a disease.
 
You might get a sign that says something like, "This aircraft is known to contain toxic level of asbestos (chemical warfare agents, ebola virus or whatever) - approach without proper HAZMAT apparel at your own risk".
 
rbibb said:
You might get a sign that says something like, "This aircraft is known to contain toxic level of asbestos (chemical warfare agents, ebola virus or whatever) - approach without proper HAZMAT apparel at your own risk".
Click to expand...

How about...

WARNING: Aircraft contains 42 gallons of volitile organic compound known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. Avoid direct contact or inhalation of fumes. No smoking within 50 feet.

And/or

CAUTION: Aircraft contains high levels of Lead, Cadnium, and Hexavalent Chromium known to the State of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm. Avoid contact.

Then again, I really don't want to start a thread about how to keep protestors from ruining our fly-ins.

Honestly, I think the most beneficial thing might be some big educational signs that talk about aircraft performance, show the build process, timeline, costs, and remind visitors not to touch the custom built planes without permission. You could also man one plane and let kids get in it with supervision...might be a good way to get some young eagles. One neat idea at kidventure was mockup planes / cockpits that actually were playground equipment.
 
Only for pilots

This will only work for pilots, and ones that have their reading glasses, but it's pretty clever. Attributed to a certain german pilot :)
IMG_1782_zps2496ff22.jpg
 
Best way to keep people off the planes is to prevent them from getting close in the first place. Several feet of white rope (small) with some stick in the ground poles and you can successfully fence the plane off. Then hang a sign that says:
Caution this aircraft has been found by the state of California to produce a lead by-product. This lead by-product has been know to cause developmental disorders in certain genus of microscopic insects. For your safety please maintain a 30 foot perimeter.
-Management

Most parents will then stay away.:D
 
Camera deterent

Put a fake surveillance camera on a tripod with a sign suggesting private property, violators will be prosecuted, etc... Could even have it suction to the cockpit glass, to eliminate tripod. People tend to obey the rules when they are being "videoed"
 
ChiefPilot said:
The CAP cadets who were so energetic in "directing" traffic on the ground with their batons etc. apparently were not instructed to keep people from touching aircraft.
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, the CAP squadron I'm a member of does train the cadets to try to keep people from touching the airplanes. Most of the time simply asking someone if that is their airplane is enough to get the point across.
 
Set a wireless dog fence transmitter under the plane, set the range to extend a few feet beyond the wing tips, and put the meanest looking dog you can find next to your plane. Then put warning signs at several points on the perimeter.
 
JakeTJ98 said:
For what it's worth, the CAP squadron I'm a member of does train the cadets to try to keep people from touching the airplanes. Most of the time simply asking someone if that is their airplane is enough to get the point across.
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For sure - the CAP squadron at the Anoka MN airport (KANE) did an outstanding job and would be a model for other squadrons. They were attentive, active, and very polite.
 
Circle the Wagons - add ropes!

I was asked to bring Tsam over to the California Capitol Airshow yesterday, and the nice weather brought out the crowds. We had a little group of RV's on static display - we put them in a circle with the tails pointed inward and the show folks put up ropes to keep people a couple of feet in front of the planes. That gave us a defensible position inside the ropes where we could sit and chat with spectators - they had a good view, but ropes stop MOST folks, especially if you're there to chat with them.

1378869_214710812036988_2125583139_n.jpg
 
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Sounds like you all are trying to push a rope here.

If you put you airplane on display at an Airshow you are going to have to deal with the 1 per centers.

The only safe way is leave it in the hangar.

I've been in over 60 shows over the last several years and have had VERY few bad instances of the rude folks. Just do a thorough preflight and enjoy the show.

That's why we are all there!
 
Ironflight said:
..we put them in a circle with the tails pointed inward and the show folks put up ropes to keep people a couple of feet in front of the planes. That gave us a defensible position.....
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Now if you were also on top of a hill you would definately be able to hold your position. To bad not a lot of hills on airport property.
 
There is hope !

When I arrived at our Chapter Fly-in Saturday there were a bunch of kids gathered around before I even got out of the airplane.

Their parents were there and were doing a good job at keeping the kids under control.

One young boy asked if he could look inside. I said "It'll be hard for you to see inside without sitting in the plane, you want to do that?" His eyes widened as he said "Yes Sir"!
(This is Louisiana)

Long story short I must have let a dozen kids sit in the plane and work the controls. Yes, I had to watch their every move. Had to ask them not to lean on the flaps etc..etc..

But in the end it made me feel good.

So, I get the mail today and find a Thank-You card. How nice!
I covered his name since I didn't ask his permission to post the note.

IMG_20140917_210620583AA.jpg


He may be one of the boys in this photo....not sure.
P1150160aa.jpg
 
I agree, good job Mark. You made new friends that day.

We just moved into our new neighborhood not long ago. Last weekend I finally was able to get most of the moving stuff and extra furniture out of the garage to storage. To do that, I had to roll the fuselage into the front yard on the walk to our front door. It sat there all day and night.

The next day a group of about 6 kids between 6-15 came over and knocked on the door. They asked if they could look at the airplane.

It was great fun showing them and then their parents who had also come along but sent the kids to the door. I had just put my beautiful interior panels and carpet in so it looked pretty good. I even had the photo I printed of full size taped to my panel showing the G3X Touch panels, radios, and switches.

The kids got to sit in and move the stick around. I only had the rudder connected, but it was enough for them. It was a good way to get to know some of the neighbors. I told them to come on back anytime, but only if I am there.

I cant wait to get the panel from Stein and seats from Abby. I got my Catto prop and it is as pretty as the Saber prop extension. These really are interesting planes and I enjoy showing how they are built.

I get pi$$ed pretty quick if they start "fiddling" around with anything so I may change completely once it is done. Im afraid I would come unglued if I saw a kid or adult messing with my plane after it is done.

It all comes down to respect for other peoples stuff. Some kids haven't learned it because their parents haven't learned it either.
 
Mark, I'm betting you didn't just make new friends... you made at least one or two future aviators. Never underestimate the impact something like that will have on a kid.
 
Good thread

I think to some ( a lot of) people, a "Please don't touch" sign is the catalyst that inclines them to touch. Unfortunately, a lot of them don't outgrow it either.
 
Kid killed

About 40 years ago, there was an air show at Dobbins AFB/Naval Air Station in Marietta (Atlanta), Georgia. Can't remember if it was Air Force or Navy, but they had a fighter inside the hangar. They had one of those metal ramps parked up tight against the fighter, and the pilot was either showing the inside or actually letting kids sit inside. (Can't remember anymore). Anyway, while he was talking to people, some kid got inside, knew how to pull the arming pins out, (I guess there's 3 of them) and ejected himself into the roof of the hangar.

Needless to say, that made the news big time.
 
Static Diaplays

When I was flying numerous models (up through AH-1F) Cobra's for the Army, we would do static displays and various air shows. We always had to have a baby sitter at the aircraft, because there was a handle, both in the front and aft cockpits that were painted with bright yellow stripes. if you pulled the safety pin and rotated and pulled the handle, it would initiate a cartridge activated device (worked even if the battery was disconnected) and blow out/cut every door and window off the aircraft !!! Needless to say, we never left them unattended, because that was usually the first thing a kid would reach for when they sat in the cockpit.

With the UH-60 we could at least disconnect the battery to keep people (kids and adults) from blowing the fire bottles and the squib on the cargo hook.
 
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BlackhawkSP said:
When I was flying numerous models (up through AH-1F) Cobra's for the Army, we would do static displays and various air shows. We always had to have a baby sitter at the aircraft, because there was a handle, both in the front and aft cockpits that were painted with bright yellow stripes. if you pulled the safety pin and rotated and pulled the handle, it would initiate a cartridge activated device (worked even if the battery was disconnected) and blow out/cut every door and window off the aircraft !!! Needless to say, we never left them unattended, because that was usually the first thing a kid would reach for when they sat in the cockpit.

With the UH-60 we could at least disconnect the battery to keep people (kids and adults) from blowing the fire bottles and the squib on the cargo hook.
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When I was going through T-45 training, one of my classmates was parked at an FBO for a fuel stop. Some parent thought it was a prime opportunity to hoist their kid up in the seat when no one was looking and the kid promptly pulled the interesting looking yellow/black handle on the canopy rail (tip over canopy) and detonated the det cord in the canopy.

Taking the Hornet to airshow's I saw everything down to parents pushing their kids into the intakes.

For my own legal security I won't ever take my plane to any of these open access airshows or fly-ins. It makes me sad too, but I would knock out the first dad I saw hoisting his kid up into my airplane, or worse.
 
Interesting owner/builder angle...

Wow... not having a creature (plane) that I have created yet. This is one of those issues we'll never see a consensus on. It looks to be a stale-mate. I totally see both sides and yet as a self proclaimed, master trouble shooter... this one is a cat's game. Very few airports or fly-ins that one can walk right up to the plane... and the list is getting shorter. The places that do, I'm not even going to get specific in hopes that they will remain that way in my lifetime.

When I am at the flyins/airshows and want a closer peek, I put my hands behind my back and look without touch. My daughter picked up on it as well. Especially looking at horses. Serves double duty as some of them like to take a bit of nip if you aren't paying attention.

Sure, one could develop a resistive, touch cover that squawked a horn or notified the owner, via iPhone, or a proximity alert. But then we get into the boy in the plastic bubble realm.

Interesting dilemma. I guess you can stomach it or you can't. No magic potion unfortunately.
 
Way to go Mark

Mark is just that kind of guy. Several years ago I used to fly my corporate plane into Ruston, La on a regular basis. Found Mark in the VAF white pages and contacted him. He took time off from work to meet me at his house to show me his project. Several years pass and I am back in my hometown in central La and Mark and his lovely wife flew down to give me a ride in his 7A over the area I learned to fly. It doesn't surprise me that Mark let the kids sit in his plane and tell them about it. Now that our plane is finished, we are trying to take as many people as possible for a ride in it. We are way too blessed to keep this all to ourselves. Thanks again, Mark, for sharing with young and OLD kids. :D
 
Guilty!!

Infidel said:
I think to some ( a lot of) people, a "Please don't touch" sign is the catalyst that inclines them to touch. Unfortunately, a lot of them don't outgrow it either.
Click to expand...

I was at a car show in SLC and they had the Mormon Speedster, an early Bonneville racer. Perfectly restored. I was looking at it and thinking about how the fenders were rolled and wondered if there was an inner liner. Before my brain could stop me, I leaned over the rope and stuck my fingers under the rim and ever so gently touched under the fender to see if there was a liner in there.

I was immediately approached by three museum workers who had an inspector come over to document the event and verify no-harm. I really felt bad.

I really know better but . . . . I just . . . well . . . . still just a curious kid sometimes, sorry.
 
KatieB said:
I think all event organizers should make it CLEAR in black and white, on the wrist bands, on signs, on everything-- THE AIRPLANES ARE HAND-CRAFTED, DELICATE AND EXPENSIVE-- KEEP OFF OR GET KICKED OUT.
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I completely agree!!! PLEASE DO NOT TOUCH OR CLIMB ON ANY AIRCRAFT! Thanks You. should be on signs everywhere!
 
This Works!!!!

... Over the years we have attended literally hundreds of airshows, showing our WW1 & WW2 war-birds. I can say with some degree of certainty "We have seen or experienced it all". An old (now departed) friend of mine built me a very small, simple unit that helped solve the dilemma on one of my planes that was mirror finish polished. He used an inexpensive auto alarm, with a remote to activate a mean capacitor and a small coil that kept it charged. When someone would attempt to touch the plane, a small, high voltage bolt of lightening would jump from there intended point of contact and nail them. For some unknown reason this seemed to alter there thought process making my airplane far less interesting to fondle. :rolleyes:
 
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