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New ADSB/Xpndr

I have heard that it will slide in a Garmin 327 tray although it won't use the same harness. At $3500 it is the most attractive and least invasive solution yet.
 
Kokemiller said:
I have heard that it will slide in a Garmin 327 tray although it won't use the same harness. At $3500 it is the most attractive and least invasive solution yet.
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Not really an apples-apples comparison, add up all the "accessories" (Stratus/Ipad/Foreflight) to get the same features and the prices will be pretty close.
Not to mention L-3 has a long history of producing aircraft avionics products for both civilian and military, this will be Appareo's first go at it as far as I know.
All of the L-3 units are TSO'd with STC's for most aircraft, and they are available for immediate delivery.
 
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Walt,
Appareo has multiple certified devices for both GA and the military. This is not their first certified product.

It's really apples and oranges though as you say. For a new airplane, if you buy the L3, you also need to buy a transponder, while the Appareo is both a transponder and your legal ADS-B out solution.

I'm sure they are both awesome products, and each has a different application.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
 
Jordan1976 said:
Walt,
Appareo has multiple certified devices for both GA and the military. This is not their first certified product.--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
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A quick search of their website did not reveal anything other than some data recording devices, perhaps you could provide some more info?

Jordan1976 said:
It's really apples and oranges though as you say. For a new airplane, if you buy the L3, you also need to buy a transponder, while the Appareo is both a transponder and your legal ADS-B out solution. --Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
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Maybe you're thinking about their UAT boxes, the NGT-9000 includes a mode S transponder, certified GPS, and dual band ADS-B in.

models_lg_ngt-9000.jpg
 
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Walt,
The NGT-9000 is $6,000, and that's the sales price that ends soon. It appears the normal price is about $800 more. I think you have to add a $500 GPS antenna and install kit to that after the sale is over, right? The Appareo at $3,500 with the antenna, plus a $900 stratus doesn't get you anywhere near that. So I did assume we were looking at the UAT units because the price of the 9000.

I'm not a deep expert on Appareo either, but as you found on the website it says "Appareo is an accredited FAA Parts Manufacturing facility" which you can't be until you've made at least one approved part, so it's clear the transponder is not their first product. Also, given their success at Stratus over the last 3 years, it's hard to call them a newcomer with no experience. Just trying to keep the data accurate when someone says this is their first "go at it".

Again, both good products, but I still believe they are targeted at different use cases, and someone looking to become ADS-B compliant should look at all the products out there.

--Ian
 
Hopefully competition will spur lower prices

Hopefully as we get closer to the 2020 mandate, the pricing will become more affordable. Current device pricing, in addition to installation, is a wee bit daunting. 2020 will be here before we know it and hopefully AOPA will get the mandate pushed or relaxed a little for GA.
 
TexasFlyer said:
Hopefully as we get closer to the 2020 mandate, the pricing will become more affordable. Current device pricing, in addition to installation, is a wee bit daunting. 2020 will be here before we know it and hopefully AOPA will get the mandate pushed or relaxed a little for GA.
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I think what we are seeing is the tip of the iceberg...

As manufacturers, big and small, see that the 2020 FAA mandate is probably real and won't go away more products will come to market.

I think the big market will be a low cost something that is a minimal addition/replacement to an older certified plane - where a $10,000 cost could easily be more than 1/4 of the planes value.

These items are beginning to appear. There are still four full years to go. :)
 
This will dramatically change as 2020 gets closer. A $10K ADS-B would ground 1000's of flying aircraft. Who's going to install a $10K ADS-B in an airplane worth $15K ~ $20K like all the Cessna 152's we've learned to fly in. As it stands at these options and prices this 2020 mandate would be a huge nail in the general aviation coffin.
That be being said, I'm sure the prices will drop as the options expand, and no doubt the rules will change as the lobby starts putting pressure on lawmakers. The pressure was put on when the 406 was mandated and it was dropped. The cost was prohibitive for some and 406 is a fraction of ADS-B.
There is no doubt in my mind, and many others, that tracking aircraft is the first step to "pay to play" just like Europe. Fighting a mandatory ADS-B for general aviation would be in our best interest. Hopefully AOPA, EAA and others will go to bat for all of us.
 
Jordan1976 said:
Walt,
Appareo has multiple certified devices for both GA and the military. This is not their first certified product.

It's really apples and oranges though as you say. For a new airplane, if you buy the L3, you also need to buy a transponder, while the Appareo is both a transponder and your legal ADS-B out solution.

I'm sure they are both awesome products, and each has a different application.

--Ian Jordan
Dynon Avionics
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Appareo does not currently hold any TSO's according to the FAA website. They do hold STC's for their non-TSO'd products.
The L-3 Lynx product family has multiple offerings including an all-in-one transponder/GPS/UAT etc.
 
az_gila said:
These items are beginning to appear. There are still four full years to go. :)
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Yes but.....let's remember that we aren't talking iPhones or cars here. THey are never going to sell millions of these things - there aren't that many airplanes.

So how many product development cycles can the market support? How many small start-up companies can survive to supply such a small market? Once they have equipped every airplane that is going to get equipped, the market is about 1,000 - 1,500 new planes a year - how many of the small companies that specialize in this are going to be able to stay around to provide support for the product you choose?

I don't' have any answers - but we should all be asking these questions!
 
Ironflight said:
Yes but.....let's remember that we aren't talking iPhones or cars here. THey are never going to sell millions of these things - there aren't that many airplanes.

So how many product development cycles can the market support? How many small start-up companies can survive to supply such a small market? Once they have equipped every airplane that is going to get equipped, the market is about 1,000 - 1,500 new planes a year - how many of the small companies that specialize in this are going to be able to stay around to provide support for the product you choose?

I don't' have any answers - but we should all be asking these questions!
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A small company won't need millions of iPhone like items to operate.

A company that has it's control paperwork and software in place to meet the TSO certification requirements and then freezes it's design will still be able to make a profit. All of the newer products are more software based now than hardware.

Support for any older avionics is going away rapidly, just look at the Garmin stuff being declared "non-repairable" and the minimum repair cost for newer stuff -- future stuff will work until it's low failure rate makes you go out and buy a new one...:)
 
NGT-9000 Lynx

Just checking now. Anyone with any experience with the NGT-9000 Lynx? Even though this is very expensive, I like the all-in-one transponder with display concept. So far, my experience with the iPad is that it is not good for traffic without being mounted in a heads up spot. It appears that L-3 Aviation only sells through dealers. Has anyone been able to purchase just the hardware for a DIY installation?
 
I've been looking at all-in-one ADSB out solutions with these new transponders for a year or so now. Today, Doug posted an ad on the home page for L3 as an advertiser that notes you can purchase the lynx NGT-9000 direct as an EAB owner instead of going through a dealer for us self installers. The home page ad indicates if you call the number you get another $400 off the price, that along with the $500 FAA rebate and Lynx promotional price of $5490 gets this unit down to around $4590 with no dealer required. (lots of features for the discounted price if you are looking to replace an old mode-c transponder as part of your upgrade)

The NGT-9000 feature I haven't been able to confirm is if the NGT-9000 offers a backup attitude sensor that you can get with the Stratus and Garmin 345 all in-one units that work with Foreflight, that would be a nice to have feature.

Nice to see additional options coming on-line for meeting this new requirement.
 
russcoburn said:
The NGT-9000 feature I haven't been able to confirm is if the NGT-9000 offers a backup attitude sensor that you can get with the Stratus and Garmin 345 all in-one units that work with Foreflight, that would be a nice to have feature.

Nice to see additional options coming on-line for meeting this new requirement.
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No attitude info available from the NGT-9000, I've installed a number of these and everyone loves em.
 
ADS-B

I just installed the Appareo Stratus ESG in my RV-7A. I bought it from Aircraft Spruce for $2795.00. It came with the certified GPS antenna. Very easy install. Used my current encoder and transponder antenna. I am very pleased with the unit and love getting the full traffic picture all the time. I am also getting $500 from the FAA.
 
49clipper

What is the opinion on the KT-74, the drop in replacement for the KT-76A transponder? Looks like the least expensive unit available today. It is ADS-B 'in', but with a WAAS gps attached, its supposed to be 'out' also. Lists for 2495 and I recall seeing one for 1995 somewhere. There has to be millions of the old KT-76A's out there.
 
After adding the required 2020 GPS to some of these ADS-B-Out units, the total price is no bargain. Both the ADS-B transmitter and GPS must be on the FAA's approved LIST. Read the fine print carefully. The ad might say 2020 compliant, but neglects to mention that the GPS is NOT included. For aircraft that do not already have an approved GPS, ADS-B transmitters that contain an internal GPS cost less and are easier to install than separate units.
 
49clipper said:
What is the opinion on the KT-74, the drop in replacement for the KT-76A transponder? Looks like the least expensive unit available today. It is ADS-B 'in', but with a WAAS gps attached, its supposed to be 'out' also. Lists for 2495 and I recall seeing one for 1995 somewhere. There has to be millions of the old KT-76A's out there.
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I think the KT-74 is ADSB-OUT only, and needs an external approved position source.

It seems to have no ADSB-IN capability.

http://www.bendixking.com/Products/Navigation-Communication/Transponders/KT-74
 
KT-74

49Clipper

As Bob and Gil mentioned the KT-74 is ADS-B OUT only and requires a certified GPS position source.

A friend just installed one in his Grumman and hooked it up to his GNS-480 and he really likes it.It has worked flawlessly.

He replaced his KT-76 with it and as Bob said, only had to run one wire.

He also got a rebate of $225 from Bendix/King for an old KT-78 (Unserviceable) that he gave as a trade-in..His cost was around $1900.00 if I recalled.

Nice unit

Bruno
 
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