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Garmin? Unveils the Next Generation of All-in-One ADS-B Transponders

Flyingleap said:
The new Garmin 335 is not much more than a Garmin 330ES, just a little cheaper.
It gets rid of all the wires in my cockpit(floating around) from the portable GPS
bluetooth to the Ipad. Is the 345 much more than that? But, can I file IFR /G with the new Garmin unit. I don't see the relevant TSO's for /G and app certified.

I say NO...please tell me I'm wrong. John
Click to expand...

Forget the IFR and /G stuf. These transponders are about making you 2020 compliant for ADS-B. The 330ES will do the job IF you already have a 2020 compliant GPS source - pretty much a 430W, a GTN 650, the bigger units, or the one of the Avidyne navigators. Those are not cheap! The new transponders have those 2020 compliant GPS's built in - that's the big difference - so you don't need an expensive GPS to boot.

Yes, Dynon and Garmin also make hockey puck 202o compliant GPS's, and I am anxious to see if those will play with 330ES's to make a compete "Out" package, and how all the price numbers add up. For guys wanting to install ONE box and make themselves 2020 compliant, these look like units to add to the shopping matrix.
 
Flyingleap said:
OK J.F. I have an old GNS430 and a Garmin 330 . My problem is to make
it both 2020 compliant and have /G.(have that now) The cost is $3600 to convert the 430 to WAAS and $1200 to convert the 330 to ES and I get ADSB out and make /G better. That's $4900! + dealer addon.

I could buy a 345 ($5700) sell 330, My guess is that 335/345 is not plug compatible but they imply it. That would get ADSB out with W but the 430 does not get the upgrade to "W".

This can't get anymore confusing!
Click to expand...

Try using the AOPA ADS-B selector assistance tool. It gives a good idea of where to start.
http://www.aopa.org/Pilot-Resources/Aircraft-Ownership/Technology/ADS-B/ADS-B-Selector
 
To summarize:

- The 335/345 with optional GPS source feeding an experimental EFIS does NOT qualify for /G
- A 335/345 with external certified GPS source (GSN/GTN/etc.) will make ADS-B out 2020 compliant.

It's quite straightforward, you need TSO C129 or C146 to file /G, which has nothing to do with ADS-B out compliance.

For ADS-B out compliance you need the transponder with the appropriate features and an adequate position source.

These 2 issues can "meet" when you're struggling to figure out how to equip yourself, and that's where the complexity really comes from, and the cost.

John, it seems you have some potential solutions for your scenario sorted out ... upgrading your existing gear is definitely an option, but as you point out the costs may not make much sense ... the 335 with GPS is 3624$ at ACS ... cheaper than your 4900$ option ... but as you point out, you're still limited with what you can do with your non-WAAS 430 ... at that point it's all about what you want and why ... have you been wanting to fly WAAS approaches? etc.
 
My Bad !

Paul, Yes I should not have confused the issue with /G. My old 430, which I have delayed in upgrading ($3600) would give me a better unit (430W) , still plug compatible too. It is also required on the Garmin 330 to go to 330ES($1200). Add those up ($4800) and then look at the Garmin 345, it's about the same. But, I don't get the "W" goodies on the 430. I was trying to explore all options with Garmin.

Galin, Thanks for the planner. That was truly eye opening. It gives all the other players in one list. There are some (about the same price as a Garmin upgrade) with no panel wiring changes, just remote wiring and and they are certified.
 
This has been truly helpful

J.F. I think you have this in a nutshell.

I have to decide whether I want to pay for "W" and get WAAS approachs. Over the last five years the airports I pick in cross countries must have (weather bad)
an ILS. Do I really need it, No. I think you are right, sell the 330, buy the 335 and I would have less than $1700 in it, or close.

John man, this gave me a headache..but you guys gave me get a better understanding of the options.
 
Flyingleap said:
J.F. I think you have this in a nutshell.

I have to decide whether I want to pay for "W" and get WAAS approachs. Over the last five years the airports I pick in cross countries must have (weather bad)
an ILS. Do I really need it, No. I think you are right, sell the 330, buy the 335 and I would have less than $1700 in it, or close.

John man, this gave me a headache..but you guys gave me get a better understanding of the options.
Click to expand...

You still have 4 years, and GPS approaches are only going to grow, while ILS' are presumably going to start disappearing ... Other transponders are probably going to come about ...

If you put the W in your 430, there are (or will be) plenty of non-Garmin, possibly more affordable transponders you could look at ...
 
Flyingleap said:
Paul, Yes I should not have confused the issue with /G. My old 430, which I have delayed in upgrading ($3600) would give me a better unit (430W) , still plug compatible too. It is also required on the Garmin 330 to go to 330ES($1200). Add those up ($4800) and then look at the Garmin 345, it's about the same. But, I don't get the "W" goodies on the 430. I was trying to explore all options with Garmin.
Click to expand...

The Garmin GPS 20A meets the TSOA performance requirements required by the FAA for an ADS-B Out position source and will work with the GTX 330 ES. $845 + antenna.

Thanks,
Brian
 
ADS B with Trig TT21

I have an aerobatic plane that I'll need to have ADS B out to go 15 miles from my home base to the practice area. I'm based at a Class C airport. Currently the transponder is a Trig TT21 - compliant with ADS B everywhere in the world, except the US as the FAA says you need 200 watts vice the 130 in the TT21.

I wonder if the FAA will relax this rule for an Exp airplane?

If not, I wonder if they could even tell it's a TT21 with 130 W versus a TT22 with 200 W?

And finally, the Garmin GPS 20A seems to be the best solution for my position data (althought 1/2 of the time it will be inop when I'm upside down).

Any thoughts from the experts?

Thanks,
Tom
 
Tom Horne said:
I have an aerobatic plane that I'll need to have ADS B out to go 15 miles from my home base to the practice area. I'm based at a Class C airport. Currently the transponder is a Trig TT21 - compliant with ADS B everywhere in the world, except the US as the FAA says you need 200 watts vice the 130 in the TT21.

I wonder if the FAA will relax this rule for an Exp airplane?

If not, I wonder if they could even tell it's a TT21 with 130 W versus a TT22 with 200 W?

And finally, the Garmin GPS 20A seems to be the best solution for my position data (althought 1/2 of the time it will be inop when I'm upside down).

Any thoughts from the experts?

Thanks,
Tom
Click to expand...

Not an expert but as I see things the FAA isn't going to relax this rule just for experimental airplanes. I could be wrong but not likely. About the power output, your transponder won't pass the 2yr static/transponder check. No reputable avionics shop will risk their certificate by signing off on your check with a TT21 transponder.

:cool:
 
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ADS-B vs Garmin gtx345 vs dynon

To the Garmin guys:

I have one of the early RV-12s with a Dynon D180 system. Its (original) configuration has a Garmin transponder, so the '345 should fit the same location.

My question:
If I go with the GTX345, what external interfaces does it need to meet ADS-B out (and "in) requirements? (other than power, ground, antenna)

The D180 being what it is, I have limited access to other data sources to feed the xponder, so I'm trying to sort out the suitability of the '345 in this airplane.

Thx much
 
Mike Buettgenbach said:
To the Garmin guys:

I have one of the early RV-12s with a Dynon D180 system. Its (original) configuration has a Garmin transponder, so the '345 should fit the same location.

My question:
If I go with the GTX345, what external interfaces does it need to meet ADS-B out (and "in) requirements? (other than power, ground, antenna)

The D180 being what it is, I have limited access to other data sources to feed the xponder, so I'm trying to sort out the suitability of the '345 in this airplane.

Thx much
Click to expand...

Hello Mike,

Thanks for your interest in the GTX 345. Just to be clear, there are no ADS-B In requirements, just ADS-B Out, but most of us are more interested in the "In" because of the free traffic and weather.

The GTX 345 is the same height and width as the GTX 327, but is 1.32" longer.

The GTX 345 should be able to use the same pressure altitude source that you are using with your existing Garmin transponder, but there is also an option for a built in pressure sensor that only requires you connect the static line to the back of the rack. When removing the GTX 345 from the rack, the pressure sensor remains on the back plate still connected to the static line.

The GTX 345 should also be able to use your existing transponder antenna. More information on antennas in this posting.

You may also order the GTX 345 with a built-in GPS receiver that only requires an external antenna (supplied) to complete the installation and be an all-in-one ADS-B In/Out solution.

The compatible ADS-B traffic and weather display devices that will interface with the GTX 345 on both wired and wireless connections are described in this posting and this thread. Tablets and phones using Garmin Pilot or Foreflight and GNS/GTN units may also be used.

Let us know if you have additional questions.

Thanks,
Steve
 
g3xpert said:
Thanks,
Steve
Click to expand...




Can a GTX-345 with internal GPS be installed (minus the GPS antenna and GPS keep-alive wire) without getting error messages?

I bought a GTX-345 with internal GPS and install it per the install manual but later install a GTN-650 and unhooked the WAAS antenna from the GTX and hook it to the 650 and disconnect the GPS keep-alive wire. Now I get a persistent "service soon" message approximately 2.5 minutes after turning it on. I reconnected the keep-alive wire and cycled it on/off but it still gives me "service soon". Everything else seem to function correctly.
 
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bnt83 said:
Can a GTX-345 with internal GPS be installed (minus the GPS antenna and GPS keep-alive wire) without getting error messages?

I bought a GTX-345 with internal GPS and install it per the install manual but later install a GTN-650 and unhooked the WAAS antenna from the GTX and hook it to the 650 and disconnect the GPS keep-alive wire. Now I get a persistent "service soon" message approximately 2.5 minutes after turning it on. I reconnected the keep-alive wire and cycled it on/off but it still gives me "service soon". Everything else seem to function correctly.
Click to expand...

Hello,

No, the assumption being that if you paid extra for a nice option like the built-in GPS receiver that you will actually use it, so it will always post an error when that receiver is not fully operational with an attached antenna.

Steve
 
g3xpert said:
Hello,

No, the assumption being that if you paid extra for a nice option like the built-in GPS receiver that you will actually use it, so it will always post an error when that receiver is not fully operational with an attached antenna.

Steve
Click to expand...

I figured that since there are two GPS source selections in the configuration menus, neither have to be set to "INTRNL", that it would function without error messages. I can't see many certified aircraft owners adding another GPS antenna just to keep the transponder happy when they invest even bigger $ in a GTN assuming they do GTX first then buy a GTN down the road.

The G5 isn't that way.
 
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RAIM?

N941WR said:
My question is, why can't we use them?
Click to expand...
I'm with you. I think the answer is: "This setup would work just fine for IFR but it violates certain FAA regs and advisories." First, I don't think (could be wrong) the Garmin GPS add-on calculates RAIM. Second, the FAA has some stupid rule that the display isn't "legal" for IFR unless it's mounted permanently in the panel and powered by ship's power. There's probably some prohibition against using a Bluetooth data link instead of actual wire. Some references:

EAA - Equipping a Homebuilt for IFR Operations
GPS equipment must meet the performance requirements of the applicable TSO (in this case, C129), but there is no specific requirement for the equipment to be built under a TSO authorization. However, if the equipment is not built under a TSO authorization, it is up to the owner/operator to verify and document that the equipment performs within the required specifications. It is also the owner or operator's responsibility to document the necessary flight-test data showing that the installation performs within the required accuracy parameters.
Click to expand...

AC-20-138 Airworthiness Approval of Positioning and Navigation Systems (RAIM requirements)

Airman's Information Manual 1-1-17:
(2.)(1) Visual Flight Rules [VFR] and hand held GPS systems are not authorized for IFR navigation, instrument approaches, or as a principle instrument flight reference
Click to expand...
 
Steve,
I currently have a Garmin GTX 327 and am seriously considering upgrading to a GTX 335. Will the 335 fit into the 327 mounting rack (tray) or do I have to replace the mounting tray also?
Thanks, Joe
 
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