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Go Arounds

SamF

I'm New Here
I am new to RV Flying. I recently bought an RV-4 and got local transition training from a local RV Pilot. So far so good, but I'm wondering a few things and thought I'd get some input before I tried them.

My transition instructor cautioned against doing a go-around on bounced landings, I mean like pretty big bounces. He said that trying to fly away from that low of airspeed would likely result in an extreme nose up climb out flying with excessive angle of attack and you might not have power to "fly out of it" meaning you would continue to struggle into the air at very high angle of attack, very high drag, and maybe not be successful in flying the plane out of this "minimum controllable airspeed" configuration and get it "up on plane", as in higher airspeed and lower angle of attack. He felt there was a considerable risk of struggling 50 or 100 feet into the air only to eventually stall and fall to the ground, much worse than the bounce would have been.

Is this thought by others to be true? Will an RV-4 (O-320 with C/S prop in my case) readily fly away from a bad bounced landing or is that indeed risky as described above. Of course you have the issue of getting the flaps up before you overspeed them, so that complicates the matter some, trying to retract flaps and not give up the little altitude you have.

Also, bad bounces more likely occur in gusty or gusty/crosswind situations. Usually landings on pretty days are pretty. I've focused on 3 point landings and flown in slight winds and even slighter crosswinds. Now I've become comfortable with this and am beginning to try slightly not so nice days. In my transition we talked about wheel landings in crosswinds and that although you touched down at higher speed which made the xwind more manageable, you eventually have to get slow enough to get the tail down, so before its over you have to deal with this low speed, minimum rudder effect condition before you can get the tail down, might as well deal with it before touchdown and deal with the hard ground at the lowest possible speed.
That seemed like good advice, hence my focus on doing good 3 pt landings, but now in practicing with more adverse winds I find that the chance of having a good 3 pt touchdown goes down with adverse winds, causing a risk of making the initial ground contact in an ugly fashion, making for a potential for things to get worse real fast with a xwind.

I'm thinking that a wheel landing gives better control in the initial ground contact and you can have a better chance of having a "clean" transition from flight to ground contact. Making ground contact "clean" and well under control lets you deal with the crosswind effects which will of course be more "pronounced" as your speed bleeds off on rollout, but at least you're dealing with this condition "under good control" and not dealing with it from a lousy touchdown with a rudder that's already of minimum effectiveness due to low airspeed.

This will probably open a can of worms/opinions but I'm interested in all of them, just please be gentle.

Also, regarding wheel landings, what is a good place to start practicing? What airspeed on touchdown and power setting specifically?

Thanks.
 
Welcome Sam, all good questions. I am in the same boat as I get used to my "new" plane and how to fly it well. I will be curious to see what answers come from the brain trust.
 
I'm new myself, but I've never had a problem with powering out of a bad landing/bounce etc even at partial power and a fixed pitch prop (especially when compared to a C150 etc). Being close to flying speed during a bounce and the RV's power to weight ratio makes a Go-Around the #1 choice in my book. On longer runways if I bounce I sometimes add power to arrest the descent from the bounce and give it another try. Lots of ugly landings but I've been told there is no such thing as an ugly go-around.

I would go out and practice, not from a bounced landing but at altitude. Practice a go-around from altitude (2000 AGL), then from 500 ft on final, etc etc until you get comfortable doing a go-around from 10-20 feet. If you're uncomfortable find an instructor/experienced pilot to go with you. Next time you bounce it in I think you'll find it's much more comfortable to go-around and try it again than riding it out.

Bouncing the airplane more than 1 foot or so and not adding power puts you in the "no-no" zone, your controls aren't effective enough to control the airplane properly and you're close to the ground.

Good Luck!
 
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My ideas

1) You don't need to pull on the stick and put the nose in the sky to go-around from a bounced landing. Add very little pitch and increase power should be enough to stop the descend and begin a climb.

2) At landing, you can not at the same time have a high angle of attack and be near or over the flaps speed, so forget initially about the flaps, fly your attitude to gain some altitude and then retract the flaps.

My 0.02 cts
 
Welcome to VAF!

I am new to RV Flying. I recently bought an RV-4

Sam, welcome to VAF:D

The way I was taught to do a go-around in the 10 was power to level out, pitch input to start a gentle climb, and flaps up after speed and climb are dealt with.

No experience with a 4, but I suspect the same will work just fine.

Good luck with your new purchase, and again, welcome aboard.
 
My transition instructor cautioned against doing a go-around on bounced landings, I mean like pretty big bounces. He said that trying to fly away from that low of airspeed would likely result in an extreme nose up climb out flying with excessive angle of attack and you might not have power to "fly out of it" meaning you would continue to struggle into the air at very high angle of attack, very high drag, and maybe not be successful in flying the plane out of this "minimum controllable airspeed" configuration and get it "up on plane", as in higher airspeed and lower angle of attack. He felt there was a considerable risk of struggling 50 or 100 feet into the air only to eventually stall and fall to the ground, much worse than the bounce would have been.

Is this thought by others to be true? Will an RV-4 (O-320 with C/S prop in my case) readily fly away from a bad bounced landing or is that indeed risky as described above. Of course you have the issue of getting the flaps up before you overspeed them, so that complicates the matter some, trying to retract flaps and not give up the little altitude you have.

The first paragraph is a load of BS from your instructor. For any landing that can't be salvaged, aborting the landing and going around is the only option.

Personally, I give myself one small bounce on landing. If I have more than one, or one large bounce, I abort the landing and go around. For a bounced wheel landing i'll transition to a 3-point, and any bounce after that I abort and go around. I operate out of a 30 foot wide runway with housing in close proximity so trying to salvage any poor landing attempt could have serious consequences. Not to mention the risk of porpoising and pranging the aircraft.

I've aborted landings in 65hp cubs, decathlons, cessna 150's with 40? of flaps, etc with no issue at all. Just remember the tendency for the nose to come up and get rid of those flaps at appropriate times and you'll be fine.
 
good advice

1) You don't need to pull on the stick and put the nose in the sky to go-around from a bounced landing. Add very little pitch and increase power should be enough to stop the descend and begin a climb.

2) At landing, you can not at the same time have a high angle of attack and be near or over the flaps speed, so forget initially about the flaps, fly your attitude to gain some altitude and then retract the flaps.

My 0.02 cts

In my experience with my 4, you can power out of a bad landing easily even with full flap at max weight. Try it and see.
Like you, I concentrated on 3 point landings for quite a while with mixed results. The tail often touched first which is normal apparently. Now most of my landings are wheel landings if there is ample runway.... easier and smoother. Control the tail so it drops smoothly. There is lots of rudder control on the 4 and in gusty crosswinds, I use half flap, slightly higher speed ,slight wing down. Seems to work for me.
I have a fixed pitch prop and was having trouble keeping my speed back on approach. Side slip to kill speed and altitude helps a lot.
Enjoy.
 
I don't know what you've flown in the past, but be prepared to add more rudder in the go around...especially if you start the go around at a very low speed.
 
Disclaimer: I'm fairly low time and rusty (~150 RV hours, mostly 7+ years ago).


My transition instructor cautioned against doing a go-around on bounced landings, I mean like pretty big bounces. He said that trying to fly away from that low of airspeed would likely result in an extreme nose up climb out flying with excessive angle of attack and you might not have power to "fly out of it" meaning you would continue to struggle into the air at very high angle of attack, very high drag, and maybe not be successful in flying the plane out of this "minimum controllable airspeed" configuration and get it "up on plane", as in higher airspeed and lower angle of attack. He felt there was a considerable risk of struggling 50 or 100 feet into the air only to eventually stall and fall to the ground, much worse than the bounce would have been.

Is this thought by others to be true? Will an RV-4 (O-320 with C/S prop in my case) readily fly away from a bad bounced landing or is that indeed risky as described above. Of course you have the issue of getting the flaps up before you overspeed them, so that complicates the matter some, trying to retract flaps and not give up the little altitude you have.

It's been my experience (180hp C/S RV-6) that even on a big bounce, application of power is enough to immediately arrest any sink. You have plenty of power to fly away. But don't worry about trying to immediately gain a lot of altitude; add the power and arrest the sink, then climb out as normal. Retract the flaps gradually after you're in a stable climb; you won't overspeed them. Just be careful not to let your nose get too high, since in landing config you're trimmed more nose-up (for a lower airspeed) than you would be for a normal climb. This might take significant forward pressure until you can retrim. As crabandy says, practice it at altitude until you get a feel for the response. And I, too, have used "blips" of power after bounces to arrest the sink and turn it into a decent landing.

I'm thinking that a wheel landing gives better control in the initial ground contact and you can have a better chance of having a "clean" transition from flight to ground contact. Making ground contact "clean" and well under control lets you deal with the crosswind effects which will of course be more "pronounced" as your speed bleeds off on rollout, but at least you're dealing with this condition "under good control" and not dealing with it from a lousy touchdown with a rudder that's already of minimum effectiveness due to low airspeed.

I prefer wheel landings and do them almost exclusively. To me, it's easier to judge the ground that way; others may disagree.
 
I agree the instructor seems to be thinking about his days flying a 65HP Champ with 2 215# guys in it. The RV-4 will go around at 1/4 throttle even loaded. I would caution highly about applying instant full power though. It can yaw quickly at that slow airspeed. Try it up high one day.

As for crosswinds... I like to wheel land the -4 in cross winds. Gusty cross winds can lift the airplane again after 100 feet of rolling from a 3pt attitude. You also have very little braking in the 3pt compared to tail high. I put the mains on, get the aircraft stable and apply heavy braking to get below the speed the wing will fly. Then put the tail down and pin it.
 
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My -9 has no problem with go-rounds after a bounce but I soon found out that I can apply a little bit of power after the bounce to bring the plane gently back down like a leaf instead of going around. I guess it has to do with the -9 wings and the extra burst of prop wash they get.
It took me a while to realize the whole energy management thing with landing an RV. If you touch down too hot, you are asking for a significant bounce unless it is a smooth transition to the surface.
 
I cannot believe your instructor meant not to apply power following a bad bounce; but rather, do not attempt to immediately climb. Apply a modest nose up attitude (not near a stall). If the plane slowly settles onto the runway, fine, just land (or take off). But most times you will stop the descent. Do not climb, but first accelerate, staying 4 feet above the runway, to the usual climb speed, then begin your climb. During this process you can slowly and smoothly retract any flaps.
 
My transition instructor cautioned against doing a go-around on bounced landings, I mean like pretty big bounces. He said that trying to fly away from that low of airspeed would likely result in an extreme nose up climb out flying with excessive angle of attack and you might not have power to "fly out of it" meaning you would continue to struggle into the air at very high angle of attack, very high drag, and maybe not be successful in flying the plane out of this "minimum controllable airspeed" configuration and get it "up on plane", as in higher airspeed and lower angle of attack. He felt there was a considerable risk of struggling 50 or 100 feet into the air only to eventually stall and fall to the ground, much worse than the bounce would have been.
....
You need a new CFI. This one's 100% wrong.
 
I usually don't like to be too critical in public but this instructor is an idiot.

Whether you go-around or not is a judgement thing - that is something a good instructor instills and teaches. Whether to go-around or not (in a tail-dragger RV) would depend on the severity of the bounce, the winds, the lenght of runway remaining, etc., etc. etc.

As for no applying power at low airspeed lets stipulate that you are at an airspeed and angel of attack (attitude) where the aircraft is not stalled (since you have not crashed yet I's say this a safe assumption). Giving power is only going to improve the stall margin. Now RVs have a better power-weight ratio than typical spam can but not so much that ramming the power home is going to put you in a torque roll like a P-51 or something. You might have to adjust your flight path (attitude) a bit as power is added but last I checked that is called "flying the airplane" which doesn't seem like too much to ask.

So, your call, if you don't like to looks of things you can add power and go-around. If you think you got it handled, go ahead and land the thing.

Lastly, my comments apply to tri-gear RVs as well with two caveats:

1) I've never flown one.
2) If you hit the nose gear first and bounce I'd do an immediate go-around as you are likely to get in to PIO and prang the prop. At least that was the case in the Mooney but not sure if that applies to the RVs. I'd do it anyhow and land someplace else just to save the embarrassment of admitting I don't know how to flair….
 
I hate to further disparage an Instructor nice enough to offer trans training but I agree strongly with all those who say BS. Keep in mind also the significant difference in power off and power on stall speeds. Go to altitude and do some power off stalls. Note the airspeed and attitude. Try them again with just 1/4 throttle. You will see a huge difference in attitude and airspeed (if you can hold the nose high enough to stall with 1/4 power).

I do agree that you need to avoid extreme high nose attitudes during the wave off. You may actually need to ease back stick as the power comes on and lower the nose as you gain speed.

Not mentioned yet is flap position. I am a firm be leaver that anything more than 1/2 flaps only increases drag without any increase in lift or stall speed. Unless concerned with short field performance I avoid full flaps
 
go around

I agree with previous posters. Full power and nose down so plane nearly parallel to the runway until your speed is up then do'er again.
 
Thankful that my instructors encouraged go-arounds!

Good grief! If salvaging a bounce was the advice then that's just plain wrong. Early in training you may not properly judge whether you're 2" or 2' above ground and if you wait for a 2nd bounce to tell you then you might just bend something. There's no shame in a go-around.. and no chance of cracking firewall weldments or a prop strike.

You're CS which should perform even better than my fixed pitch.. and my -4 powers out w/full flaps at any proper loading. Are you on a <2000' strip with large trees at the end?!

You didn't specify long or short gear. I favor full flap wheel landings on my short geared -4, to me it just seems much more controlled and less at the mercy of wind changes. If it's gusting +-10 over wind speed then I frequently use a no flap wheel landing and add a margin of speed.
 
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Thanks

I appreciate all the input and it seems to have a common theme, and makes sense.

Just to clarify: My CFI WAS in favor of adding a bit of power to salvage the bounce and slowly lower the plane back to the runway under good control, but he was AGAINST trying to fly away from the bounce. It was the flying away from (going around) the low airspeed, low altitude (the height of the bounce) that was advised against. I regularly add a touch of power to arrest the descent after the bounce and usually end up with a nice (second) landing.
I don't mean to disparage him or anything, I think I'm just ready to learn more than he taught me.

Good comments on expecting the nose to pitch up since I'll be trimmed for landing, not takeoff.

Regarding wheel landings, which I'm going to go practice (at a nice big runway): What is a good starting point regarding touchdown speed and power settings. Should the power be OFF (which with my C/S prop really puts the brakes on and really makes the rate of descent increase) or with a bit of power just to keep the "anchor" stowed and make it glide out like a "normal airplane". I'm guessing the touchdown speed would be the minimum speed that the aircraft can be slowed to without pitching up from the somewhat "level" wheel landing position which would, of course, be setting up for the 3 pt landing. Is this right or should I touch down faster, well before I have to begin pitching up to keep the descent a minimum? Any caveats?

Thanks again for all your inputs.
 
Sam you can wheel it on using the same approach airspeed as your three pointers. You're just not going to hold it off like you've been doing. You want to touch down on the "back side" of the tire...in other words, in a slightly tail low attitude. Feel for the runway and it's essentially 'flown' on...as soon as you touch, give a small amount of forward elevator, to stick it on. Let the tail come down on its own and don't keep adding down elevator in an attempt to hold the tail off....just let it settle on its own.

If you happen to bounce, your second option is to then go for a three-pointer.

Best,
 
Pierre's advice on wheel landing technique is very good. It is a technique that most pilots, at least subconsciously adhere to, but something that takes practice. There should be a distinction here..... A go around is different than an aborted landing. An aborted landing is what you're asking for advice about. Both of these procedures require a bit of training and practice. For an instructor to tell you that an aborted landing is unsafe is just wrong. Many times it is the only safe thing to do. Short runway, gusty crosswind, obstacles - abort that landing and either go somewhere else of conditions dictate, or have another try. Of all the taildraggers I've flown, an RV is without question THE most capable airplane for aborting a landing in - ANY RV. The other taildraggers I flew were all certified aircraft and performance issues may make things difficult depending on runway and airport area conditions. Your RV4 has no performance shortfalls in this regard. It's just a matter of training and practicing techniques as Pierre recommends - with an instructor, and I recommend you find a different instructor.
 
I make no attempt to critique your instructor.

However, your RV will recover from a "bounced" or "botched" landing VERY well. Depending on the severity of the bounce you can either make a second (or third or fourth) landing attempt, depending on runway length. And by the way, many of us do that all the time...we call it a normal RV landing :p

Alternately, if the bounce is significant you may lose energy in the bounce and not be able to arrest the subsequent descent rate without full power. At that point, I prefer to just go around. Take the time to Read Chapter 8 of the FAA Airplane Flying Handbook. Here's an excerpt:

"The corrective action for a bounce is the same as for
ballooning and similarly depends on its severity. When
it is very slight and there is no extreme change in the
airplane’s pitch attitude, a follow-up landing may be
executed by applying sufficient power to cushion the
subsequent touchdown, and smoothly adjusting the
pitch to the proper touchdown attitude.
In the event a very slight bounce is encountered while
landing with a crosswind, crosswind correction must
be maintained while the next touchdown is made.
Remember that since the subsequent touchdown will
be made at a slower airspeed, the upwind wing will
have to be lowered even further to compensate for
drift.
Extreme caution and alertness must be exercised any
time a bounce occurs, but particularly when there is a
crosswind. Inexperienced pilots will almost invariably
release the crosswind correction. When one main
wheel of the airplane strikes the runway, the other
wheel will touch down immediately afterwards, and
the wings will become level. Then, with no crosswind
correction as the airplane bounces, the wind will cause
the airplane to roll with the wind, thus exposing even
more surface to the crosswind and drifting the airplane
more rapidly.
When a bounce is severe, the safest procedure is to
EXECUTE A GO-AROUND IMMEDIATELY. No
attempt to salvage the landing should be made. Full
power should be applied while simultaneously maintaining
directional control, and lowering the nose to a
safe climb attitude. The go-around procedure should
be continued even though the airplane may descend
and another bounce may be encountered. It would be
extremely foolish to attempt a landing from a bad
bounce since airspeed diminishes very rapidly in the
nose-high attitude, and a stall may occur before a
subsequent touchdown could be made."


I really, really, really encourage people to read the Airplane Flying Handbook. I have read it lot' of times and I learn new things each time. It's always been the "syllabus" for my flight students.
 
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I'll give your instructor the benefit of the doubt and assume he told you not to try and CLIMB out of a bounce... That's something I can agree with.

However, application of full throttle is unlikely to hurt you if you only pitch enough to stay off the runway. That's the key: JUST ENOUGH PITCH. If you are so slow that the RV will still settle with full power (unlikely), then at least the impact will be substantially less than if you just gave up and left the throttle at idle.

And like most of the posters here, forget about configuration for the moment. Simply grab a handful of throttle, focus on the end of the runway for pitch and settling input, and forget everything else until you're flying again. Once you have the situation at hand, then start looking "inside" for airspeed indications and flap switches.
 
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There was another thread that had me looking at my checklists. Here's what mine says:

GO AROUND
Throttle FULL
Carb Heat OFF
Airspeed ACCELERATE TO AND CLIMB AT 60 KT
350? AGL Vx 65KT, THEN FLAPS 15
500? AGL Vy 80KT, THEN FLAPS 0

Some airplanes will have pitch up with power with flaps in, so forward stick pressure may be required to keep from climbing while the airplane accelerates.

The one good thing about going around after a bounce or PIO is that it gives you a moment to collect yourself. Trying to "get it on the ground" sometimes works a little too well, if you know what I mean...

TODR
 
I have instructed in maybe 40 different makes and models of aircraft. In every one I have had the student fly slowly a foot or two above a long runway in landing configuration. I tell them if we touch the ground with enough runway to stop safely we land and if not we will go around at a predetermined point. The object of this is to give some time to get the feel of slow flight just above touchdown speed and get a sight picture in their mind as to what touchdown attitude looks like. At the same time they are learning what pitch and power setting is needed to keep the plane flying. This works best with a long runway, say 7000 feet or more.
Just my .02 worth.
 
Here is a quote from a post I made in 2008. I had an RV-4 with a CS prop, same as you.

Mike Seager trained me (in his 7, fixed pitch) to keep some power on until the runway is made (1700 - 1800 rpm, 80 - 90 mph on final), then pull power off, flare for a 3 pointer. When it touches, unless you get a big bounce pull the stick all the way back and let it settle (will often skip a bit). In the big bounce scenario push the power in and go around. Mike has more than 10,000 hours training in RVs so I dont know if there is anyone more knowledgable about this subject. I recall him saying he likes to keep some power on (for novices like me anyway) so the approach is flatter and the transition to the flare is not as dramatic.

One of the things I love about this airplane is, when you do get a big bounce, you are sitting there about to come crashing down, you firewall the throttle and it just picks itself right out of the air and takes off. Try that in a 172!


FYI, I never did figure out how to wheel land that thing, and it wasn't for lack of trying. 3 pointers were no problem (tail first sometimes) but something about the wheel landings just psyched me out. Now in my Decathlon I wheel land about half the time - its easy.
 
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Thanks so much!

Wow guys, thanks a lot for all the good (and friendly) input. There really were a lot of good lessons and pretty good consensus. I feel a lot better about the topic and much more confident about what seemed to me to be a good option. In can still hear my "primary instructor" saying "don't be afraid to go around" which as one poster so accurately described I'm really talking about "don't be afraid to abort a landing". I thought, after my "transition training", perhaps it did not apply to tailwheel 3 pt landing or something.

Thanks again to all who chimed in!
 
Lastly, my comments apply to tri-gear RVs as well with two caveats:

1) I've never flown one.
2) If you hit the nose gear first and bounce I'd do an immediate go-around as you are likely to get in to PIO and prang the prop. At least that was the case in the Mooney but not sure if that applies to the RVs. I'd do it anyhow and land someplace else just to save the embarrassment of admitting I don't know how to flair….

Definately applies to RV's too. Guess I forgot to flare that last time. Not sure actually, but even a little two foot bounce can get away. I must have been watching too many taildraggers bouncing. For sure......add some power. P.S. --- if you let it get to a third bounce, where it's tail up, and flying speed is too far decayed, then forget it. Might cartwheel off the runway. RV6A
 
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