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RV-3 V speeds?

arunnells

Well Known Member
Good day, I was wondering what everyone has seen listed for RV-3 V speeds, I currently have the VNE as 210 mph, Vso 51 mph(of course I'll have to test fly it to confirm), Vs1 54 mph, Vfe 100 mph, and looking for Vno. I'm just in the midst of setting up a Dynon D10A EFIS, and there is a listing for speed tape V speed entries for these 5 values, thanks for looking.
 
Vno for RV3

I recently just purchased a new airspeed indicator from Vans & the Vno speed marked with a light blue line is 135mph. I have found that my 3A smooths out considerably under 140mph if it is a bumpy day. The other speeds you mentioned are all correct although I think 100mph for Vfe is a bit too low in the real world. I hope to install a glass panel too someday.
 
from my RV-3A POH ...

... trust that helps: [ed. These #'s are wrong. Read full thread]

Operating Speeds – MPH
Vne Never Exceed 230 mph
Vno Maximum Structural Cruising 193 mph
Va Maneuvering 142 mph
Vfe Maximum Flap Extended 110 mph – 20º, 100 mph – Full
Vy Best Rate of Climb 125 mph
Vx Best Angle of Climb 85 mph
Vs Stall Speed Clean 62 mph
Vso Stall Speed w/flaps 56 mph
Vbg Best Glide 85 mph

Operating Speeds – KNOTS
Vne Never Exceed 200 kts
Vno Maximum Structural Cruising 168 kts
Va Maneuvering 124 kts
Vfe Maximum Flap Extended 96 kts – 20º, 87 kts – Full
Vy Best Rate of Climb 107 kts
Vx Best Angle of Climb 73 kts
Vs Stall Speed Clean 53 kts
Vso Stall Speed w/flaps 49 kts
Vbg Best Glide 73 kts

Best, Henz
 
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I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, and these are experimental airplanes so you can do what you want, but Henz, the numbers you posted are for the later model RV-7, -8, etc. The RV-3, being Van's first kit, has lower numbers for Vne for all the versions (-3, -3A, -3B), as does the RV-6. The numbers posted by the OP are correct "by the book" from the kit and the company.

Having 2,000 hours of RV time when i started flying the -3, it was really hard not to fly it like my -8 and use a 200 knot redline - but that put me way up close to the the fastest Van had tested it for flutter. Remember - the RV-3 has no counterbalance for the elevators, so you can't fly it as fast as the others and be in known territory. Flutter testing was not real sophisticated back when the airplane was designed, so I would say the margin is a little fuzzy as well.

Flap speed is what flap speed is BTW - we ALL wish it was higher, but the structure wasn't designed for it. Remember that the airplane was designed for a 100-125 HP motor. We're taking it a lot farther with little modification.

Fly with margin!

Paul
 
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Thx

Thanks for the comments Paul, and Steve, I'll program the Vno of 135 speed into the D10A. I'm just collecting things for my panel upgrade. I currently have the D10A installed and purchased a Dynon AOA heated pitot which still needs to be installed in place of the current Falcon heated pitot. Have one of the two Dynon SV32 servos I need. I also just replaced my radio/trans combo with Microair units. Purchased an MGL Extreme EFIS/EMS to use as my EMS and backup EFIS. I will re-do the panel to install all the goodies this Jan/Feb with my AME. Gets rid of 10 conventional instruments, which after adding the RDAC box and all associated sensors and lines, I am hoping will result in a weight reduction. Sure will be nice to have a 2 axis autopilot in the RV-3, I just love the one in my RV-6. And I've purchased all the goodies at considerable savings here on the good ship VAF :)
 
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uuups - there is always something to learn ...

... if you haven´t killed yourself beforehand ...

Many thanks, Paul for pointing out my error. I actually have copy/pasted the info für my POH from someone else and did not check it - stupid!!

The Vne is something I always stay away from normally very much (I don´t think the PH-URZ has seen more than 160 KT IAS with me on the controls yet) however I will get into aerobatics (with proper training) and than it matters.

Sorry for posting something misleading, Heinz
 
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Vno Thoughts

Max structural cruising speed for the -4 (and -6) is 180 MPH IAS (top of the green arc). Don't know if this number is applicable to the -3, perhaps a call or note to Van's can clarify? As important a speed as Vno is, it's generally not discussed much (and is as generally misunderstood as Va), so great question! Interestingly, turbine powered aircraft don't have a Vno, since that number effectively becomes the "barber pole" or "upper foot," depending on how the airspeed is displayed.

A couple of points to ponder:

Since Van's types can exceed Vno in level flight, other than Va in general and particularly during asymmetrical maneuvering, this is the limit most often exceeded (in non-smooth air, which seldom exists at low altitude).

If you operate in a mixed formation with later Van's models, it's fairly easy to fly faster than Vno in the -4 (and other early Van's models) and you may have to remind the folks flying newer fire breathing -7's and -8's that they need to observe speed limits of the slowest type in formation.

Best to preserve some margin...Vne is a function of equivalent/true airspeed and may be exceeded in the -4 in cruise flight at high altitude and/or (very easily) during descent. Vno is a handy "poor man's" barber pole in the "non-oxygen" altitude band, i.e., if you keep IAS within the green arc regardless of altitude, you generally shouldn't have any issues with Vne TAS. At standard temp, this rule of thumb starts to break down above 12,000 feet pressure altitude, however. Once you are back down in "thick air" (below approximately 8000' density altitude), then you can let IAS start to creep back up (in smooth air only), if desired.

We love to worry about how fast our RV's fly, and they have a tremendous "speed band" (the ratio of Vne to stall speed)--about twice the typical light plane. But that performance comes at a cost: proper knowledge and application of limits to ensure design margin. Operate within limits, and assuming a sound structure, you'll have Van's margin to work with--we all screw up enough that we partake in the margin from time to time. Exceed the limits (or designer's recommendations) and you're an experimental test pilot. This can be what experimental aviation is all about, but only if it's intentional.

Fly safe,

Vac
 
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VNE discussion

It never ceases to amaze me when I am sitting around a group of experienced pilots and the subject of VNE comes up, and surprise is registered around the table when I mention that I fly the RV-6 to TAS, not IAS (the gauge that lies as VANS puts it). I am not a high time pilot nor do I consider myself particularly experienced, so I am usually a bit shocked when discussing VNE and TAS with pilots who have many more years of experience and flying hours than I have. My RV-6 with high compression pistons, ported and flowed heads, numerous speed mods on the airframe and the Whirlwind RV-200 prop, will VNE the airframe usually at about 2450-2500 rpm showing anywhere from 178-185 indicated.

Of course this depends on the altitude, temperature and pressure of the flight, but where and when I fly, this is pretty typical. I have to be so vigilant when I fly it and am frequently dialing the prop down when the air starts getting bumpy. I have thought about it quite a lot as to why this always seems to be a surprise to pilots, aside from the fact that we are all supposed to have the same base of beginning aviation knowledge when we become licenced.

I really believe it is based on the fact that not many other pilots who fly slower aircraft are ever thinking of VNE because they can't get near it in straight and level flight. I had read the VANS articles regarding the choice of engines in the RV-9 and VNE changing with altitude, as well as the article by Smokey Ray detailing his experience with flutter in his RV-4. After I read those articles I decided to start checking what my TAS was during flights and was quite surprised to see how easy it is to bump up against it.
When I let other pilots fly the 6, who have no experience in aircraft with the performance of the RV, it's quite interesting to see how they fly it.

Typical cruise with MAP set at 23.5 and 2350 RPM, results in having only about 10 seconds or so after hitting 1-2 clicks of down trim, before I am once again hitting TAS VNE. This really catches other pilots unaware who I have flown with, and always the subject of TAS VNE comes up. Thus far I have yet to fly with another non RV pilot who seemed to be aware of this. As an aside, the first flight in my new for me RV-3 was at 8500 ft, 2500 rpm, 170 IAS which at the time was 195 TAS.

This winter I will install a set of Sam James pressure recovery wheel pants (have the old school non pressure recovery pants on it at present) and will do a few other mods to clean up the airframe, and am quite interested in what changes will result in the speeds I'll be able to attain. I especially focus on the comment Paul Dye made reminding us that the RV-3 does not have a balanced elevator as the rest of the Vans line is equipped with. With 170 hp and a cruise prop I will also be very careful flying the RV-3, to keep an eye on the TAS. I am interested to hear from other's experience in this regard, cheers, Al.
 
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Great post Al. In the RV-3 with the IO-320 and C/S WW-151 Prop, the airplane will fly 8 knots over redline with all the knobs forward - and that is the IAS redline (at sea level). I can bust the TAS redline so easily at altitude, it isn't funny.

This is one area where having an EFIS that gives you a constant readout of TAS is valuable especially when descending from a high cruise altitude. Better, several of the EFIS's allow you to make the redline "live" based on TAS (similar to the barber pole in a turbine), so that you know when to pull the power back when the nose is down.

Paul
 
Just as I imagined the WW151H would perform in the RV-3

Thanks for the reply Paul. I have a WW151H I removed from my RV-6 in order to mount the WWRV200 in it's place, more on this in a minute. After I had painted the 6, it changed the CG rearward enough that I was willing to gain 10lbs of empty weight to try to get back some of my luggage capacity, by placing that 10 lbs as far forward as possible. And that's with the 11 gal auxilary carbon fiber fuse tank mounted between the panel and firewall which I've described in a detailed post in the 6 forum.

Since I was 192 lbs and the empty weight of the 3 was 841 lbs when I got it the end of August, already the gross weight was an issue. So, I removed a second heat muff up front and all associated plumbing, changed from a PC 680 to a B&C, changed from a KT76A and Icom A200 to a Microair pair, took 1 inch out of the Oregon Aero seatback for more legroom, and I personally lost 12 lbs, the empty weight is now 831. With a 180lb pilot, 180 lbs fuel I can now carry 9 lbs of baggage before I hit the 1200lb gross.

Now back to the WW151H prop (just gone through by WW at the 350 hr mark) laying around in the hanger begging to be installed. I looked at Randy Lervold's site and from what I can tell I would gain about 16 lbs or so if I installed it factoring in the Jihostroj governer and bracket, high pressure line and vernier controller and the prop itself. The engine is an O320E2D hollow crank wide deck with high compression pistons, dual Pmags with 650 bottom end and 80 top.

This would require me to change to a Sky Tec XLT and PlanePower lightweight starter alternator combo, a magnesium Sky Dynamics flywheel, pull the engine and cut my firewall to install a governor box and modify or replace my old style 12 in cowl with a 13 in to match the carbon fiber WW spinner. Which, oddly enough I would still like to do, I just love the performance of the WW CS props. But I'm going to hold off until I see what I can extract from the airframe without the CS.

After looking at the performance of Randy Lervold and yourself in your beautiful RV-3s, I kind of thought I would be spending money and effort to dial the prop back in cruise. Another option is to go to the as yet unreleased new profile Catto prop SmokeyRay alluded to in a recent posting. But that darn WW151H is just staring at me every time I go into the hanger......:)
 
The RV-3 community is small, so I don't mind teasing and tempting you Al....how does 3,000 fpm UP right off the deck sound - in addition to being able to go faster than redline in level flight... :) :)
 
On the other hand, I can think of a good place for that WW151 prop and governor, if you decide not to use it.

I'm not exactly ready for it but it's on the list for when the time comes.

Dave
RV-3B now on the tanks, haven't started the fuselage but do have a motor.
 
So Paul, what you're saying is no such thing as too much thrust properly applied--Jealously concur with that! :D

Cheers,

Vac
 
Sounds pretty good to me!

Yeah that sure is tempting Paul! I have a bucket list to do on the 3 before that though. The gear shimmies quite bad, the wood gear leg wraps have delaminated so I have a new pair coming from Woodman to go on with CF wrap. Have to make the new panel in CF with the Extreme EMS, and add the autopilot servos for the D10A Jan/Feb. One of the servos will be going in the wingtip with a CF pushrod to connect it. The type II wing bellcrank/pushrod area is really quite different from the 3B wing, so the servo is going in the wingtip which is 3lbs lighter, currently on the W&B sheet.

Then I have to re-do some really thick and heavy, poorly made gear leg fairings and make new intersection fairings to mount the new Sam James pants, etc, etc. It will be next winter before I contemplate the prop switch, thought I would paint it the same dark metallic orange my RV-6 is painted at the same time. Always some fun things to do on your experimental with your spare time, I quite enjoy it :).

Paul, have you done any elevator balancing or incremental VNE flutter testing on your 3 to open up the airframe redline at all? Just curious.
 
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Paul, have you done any elevator balancing or incremental VNE flutter testing on your 3 to open up the airframe redline at all? Just curious.

Nope - I only have the one RV-3, and while we have a nice parachute, custom-fit for the plane, I'd rather not use it...;)

We had a "quick build tail" (the first owner of our kit had built the tail before we bought it from him), or I would have considered going balanced. The yellow and red -3 from New Mexico known as "Hack Job" has a balanced tail however. It's owner/builder, John Nystrom, did a beautiful job, and maybe he has tested it at higher speeds.
 
On my empennage I considered adding counterbalance weights and decided not to. My reasoning was that in the absence of a formal flutter analysis, which I had no plans to do, I wouldn't know what effect the changes would have.

What we do know is that there are probably more than 250 RV-3s with no tail counterbalances, and a handful with. I found no cases of tail flutter in the NTSB accounts for either version. So I left them off, even though I'd come up with a slick welded steel design for them.

I do plan to firmly adhere to the specified speed limits, and I'm not going to attempt to test them higher. The risk is too high.

Dave
RV-3B, still on tanks
 
Hi Paul, do you fly with the parachute all the time in the 3??curious?Regards Bruce Stewart

No, we don't.

We have a well-proven, well-tested aircraft and we use it for a lot of things. The only time I wear a chute is for flight testing or doing things at the edge of the envelope where LOC, structural failure, or fire are a significantly higher risk than for normal operations - and then I wear a chute, helmet, nomex suit, gloves and boots.
 
V Speeds for later low speed handling now

Shameless thread creep.
I'm a new owner of an RV 3 and have a fair amount of RV time in a 4 and 6's over the last few years and am fairly atuned to them. Now the difference I find is that the controls are a lot more immediate in the 3 especially the rudder response. So it will be a bit of circuit time before I take it home to my narrow grass strip. Also in my limited experience I think it is the best.
And yes Paul RV 3 drivers are a small bunch.

Happy flying.
RV3 bought flying
RV8 under construction.
 
v-speeds

Just a note for all the early type one and type 2 wings out there. If the CN-1 and the CN-2-1 wing spar mods were done, the never exceed speed is 210 and maneuvering speed is 127 statute. at max aerobatic gross wt. of 1050#. With a max g-loading of 6+ and 3- :eek:
 
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