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Pulled the trigger - common mods?

Been lurking and watching for a while and a couple of weeks ago I finally pulled the trigger on an emp for the -10. Lead time was 6 weeks when I ordered and I see that has bumped up to 4 months, and wings went from 5 to 6 months. On top of my regular schedule for working on the plane, I have 4 weeks of vacation time this summer so I figure I can finish the emp in 5 – 6 months. That means I really need to order the wings now to avoid a work stoppage. Makes me a little nervous to order the wings before even starting the emp, but with the lead times we are seeing, it makes sense.

My big issue now is deciding what mods I want for the wings and if I need to have Vans modify the kit. I am seriously thinking about the zip tips. I like the integrated lights, but they are a good bit of money. Other than looks and ease have people noticed any other benefits from the zip tips? How is the quality of the lighting for taxi and landing?

I am also going to go with Advanced Flight Systems and the autopilot servos for ailerons and elevator. Is there any changes needed for installing these? Should I order the servo now so that I can put it in the emp as I build it?
Any other common mods for the wings I should be considering? I want to keep the cost and time reasonable so not going overboard, but don’t want to miss something Important either.

Any other suggestion and hints would be very appreciated. And Thanks!
 
Servos are designed to be installed fairly easily after the structure is complete. Given the dynamic nature of the avionics market and hardware development, I’d suggest holding off as long as possible before choosing a brand. Not that AFS doesn’t make great products today, but they might make better products tomorrow.
 
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Welcome

Ron welcome to the good ship VAF.
I don’t have any experience with the zip tips but will give a “tip” of my own. Think carefully about any modifications that you plan on doing to the kit. Have I done mods to mine, yes (eyeball plastic vents changed to all metal as an example). Some mods are easy and for additional $$$ “might” perform better. Others will require a substantial amount of time and money yet still might not perform the associated task any better than the design philosophy that Vans has laid out. Have a read as to what others have done and see if they have experienced the level of success you are looking for. Google does a great job of searching the forums, yoursearchtermhere site:vansairforce.net

I pretty sure AFS will build your panel with either the AF-5000 series or the Dynon system. Give AFS a shout and they can tell you what AP servo/install kit to order given the brand of avionics you plan on going with. If it were me, I would install the AP servo and wiring before closing up the fuselage. I “try” to do this with all the sub-assemblies that I build. Don’t worry too much if you miss something, I have crawled to the back / under many time to install the items missed.

Again welcome.
 
Things like which EFIS system you want can be deferred. For the Tail Kit I do recommend getting the ADAHRS module mounting kit from Van’s as this will work to mount most modules (like Dynon and Garmin). One mount will handle both SkyView modules. For $20 is this is a good deal.

For other big mods, I look at each for what it does for the mission I have for the plane (efficient cross country cruise). For example:
- Zip Tips. These are pricey and do not provide increase in performance. While the lighting is cool, standard LED landing lights and NAV/Strobes more than meet my mission. Decide what best meets your mission.
- Most EFII options require a fuel return line to the tanks - so if you go down this road you need to build these returns into your tanks. My study of EFII does not indicate any performance or efficiency gains over pMag ignitions and a balanced traditional fuel injection system, but does add cost and complexity. Many people however swear by these systems so you decide what you want to do.
- Battery mount. If you plan on a dual battery set up, the stock mount can be modified to hold two PC-625 batteries (did this for both of my RV-10 builds). This decision can be deferred until you start running fuselage wires.

Carl
 
Hold off on any avionics purchase until nearing the end of the build, including A/P servos and brackets, They can easily be installed when the wings are done. Just plan ahead and run a couple wire chase's for pulling wires. Don't forget the pull string!
I like the look of the ZipTips, but again they will be an added cost and modification you will have to deal with. The costs will be somewhat offset by the deletion of the parts they replace. I will probable go with them on my current RV-10 build because I like how they look, they solve the issue of lighting in one complete package, and the wow factor of the style.
I modified the stock battery tray of my last RV-10 for dual PC680's, along with dual master contactor's. I was thankful for the added aft weight when I did my W&B.
 
Speaking from experience, zip tips take a lot of work and there is no common installation procedure. Some people use nutplates and screws, some piano hinge. Lots of work cutting to size and figuring out how to mount them. Probably not much more work than cutting holes in the leading edge for other lights, but still a lot of work.

For AP servos, I don't know how AFS installs so I cannot help you there. I bought Garmin AP servos from SteinAir and they came with install kits and great directions from Garmin. A couple of bell crank pieces come out, the Garmin pieces drop right in, mounting to existing hardware. The entire installation of both a wing servo (roll) and a tailcone servo (pitch) took me a short afternoon.

One mod I don't see in your list is pitot. The Van's plans call for a simple piece of tubing bent forward and sticking out of a hole in the wing. I went with a heated regulated Garmin Gap 26 with AOA. Most pitot tubes have a common shape and can use a pitot mast. Spruce sells a really nice mast for about $60 that rivets to a spar and the skin. If you want to have any kind of pitot better than just 1/4 inch aluminum tubing, you need to start thinking about that. And how to mount the heat controller - I went with nutplates on the access hole cover, the same way that the controller for the Van's supplied roll trim mounts.
 
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...and

I opted for ER tanks; the ziptips would not work without substantial modification with the ER tanks. That may be different now...

Aileron trim kit; easier to install while building.

If you want AOA, decide on a pitot tube; I used the regulated Garmin GAP26.

I installed the stock stall warning...wish I hadn’t...removed it and filled the holes.

If you do not use the zip tips, get the duck works mounts for landing lights.

Pitch and roll servo mounts

Plan for a fuel return if you are considering EFII. I used the System 32, and could not be happier. Starts like a car, hot or cold and I. The fly tuning...I love it!

I would use different fuel caps and flanges if I built again.
 
I installed the stock stall warning...wish I hadn’t...removed it and filled the holes.


I would use different fuel caps and flanges if I built again.

Plus 1 for the stall warning. I did the same thing,,,,put it in, then removed it. I used the custom Andair locking fuel caps, but the downside is it has a smaller filler opening and that makes it more difficult to look in and watch as your fueling to judge the fuel level as you fill. If your not careful, you will have a big gush of fuel over the wing!
 
Speaking from experience, zip tips take a lot of work

I was under the impression that the Zip Tips fit better and were easier to install. The lighting has to be easier or am I off on that one as well.

I will most likely do the zip tips just because I like the way the lights look. That will be my only extravagance for the build since I am trying to keep costs reasonable.
 
What to delete from wing kit

Most of my question was geared towards what modifications do I need to make to the kit when I order. It sounds like removing the tips might be the only change?

Does the stall warning come as part of the kit? (would be easier if they provided a kit parts list in advance) I am going to go with a heated pitot and AOA since I am going full IFR.

Oh yeah, I also want the capacitive sensors for the fuel tanks. Not sure if that is what they are called.

I will wait for the last minute for avionics, was just wondering when I have to install the servos.

Thanks for all the help so far!
 
Zip tips are nicely finished fiberglass with terrific lights. They are a great all-in-one solution that provides all the lights you need in a single, aerodynamic place without any additional work. The flange that connects the wingtip to the wing requires about the same amount of work as the stock wingtips. You need to cut the flange down to the right depth and then attach nutplates / dimple / countersink /rivet / screw OR drill / c'sink / rivet piano hinges.

The stock wingtips require you to cut, fit, and attach the lens to the wingtip and install the lighting. Zip tips come with the lens and all wires and lights installed.

You need to run the appropriate wire bundle to each wingtip (as I recall, 13 wires to one, 11 to the other - the difference is the strobe sync and master/slave control wires only go to one side).

You also need to attach the access panel covers to the underside of each wingtip. The access panels are about the size of a dessert plate. No instructions are given. I drilled about 16 holes per panel, countersunk for screws, and added nutplates to the wingtips to secure the access panel covers. Other people have reported that two sided tape might work or they cover the entire thing in auto vinyl since the access panels are needed to be accessed really infrequently (never?) once they are installed. Not sure how either of those will hold up at 200 mph.

One word of caution - the flanges that attach the zip tips to the wing are rather thin, as are the access panel attachment flanges. I had riveted a nutplate directly to the access panel flange fiberglass with countersunk rivets, and the torque of a screw into the nutplate tore it loose.

As a result, in addition to all of the above work, I cut sections of 0.025 aluminum sheet in 1/2 inch sections to run along each attachment flange. The aluminum sits between the thin fiberglass and the nutplates. In some places, I drilled and countersunk holes for additional rivets holding the metal to the fiberglass. I also added epoxy to the aluminum - fiberglass joint. The result is far more torque resistance - turning a screw now puts pressure on a nutplate secured by a long sheet of metal held in place by a dozen rivets and epoxy, rather than just two little rivets on the nutplate.

I also used Tinnerman washers on the access panel covers since countersinking for #8 screws gets pretty deep into a thin piece. The Tinnermans make it really strong again. Auto vinyl in lieu of paint on the access panel cover holds them in place nicely.
 
SNIP.

Oh yeah, I also want the capacitive sensors for the fuel tanks. Not sure if that is what they are called.

Do yourself a favor, use the standard float senders. Search VAF for capacitive sender problems.

Once calibrated (SkyView system) the float senders read within a gallon of actual once in indication range.

Carl
 
Kit list

If you contact Van's, they will send you the kit list...

...and the stall warning is included in one of the kits...
 
Inventory

Most of my question was geared towards what modifications do I need to make to the kit when I order. It sounds like removing the tips might be the only change?

Does the stall warning come as part of the kit? (would be easier if they provided a kit parts list in advance) I am going to go with a heated pitot and AOA since I am going full IFR.

Oh yeah, I also want the capacitive sensors for the fuel tanks. Not sure if that is what they are called.

I will wait for the last minute for avionics, was just wondering when I have to install the servos.

Thanks for all the help so far!

They will e-mail an inventory shipping list (BOM). Call and ask for it. Very useful.
I wouldn't delete the tips. You won't get full price credit. If you change your mind, they will be on the shelf. If not, someone will certainly buy them. Make sure all fiberglass parts are stored edge down so they don't distort.
Capacitive plates are no longer an option but you can make your own with dimensions from the OP drawing. Should be on the USB plans drive. If you don't have it, buy it. Very useful.
Stall kit is usually included but check the sample BOM to be certain.
If you know what brand electronics you can always order the mounting kit and even the cable and save the servo purchase for later.
Not sure about the 10 but the 7 has tie diwn brackets bolted to the wing spar. I bought the predrilled and tapped brackets from Cleveland. Also installed them so they are flush to the wing skin.
Check the BOM for the Vans corrugated conduit. Can't remember if it was included.
There are some other tips.
Hold off on Proseal till you're ready for it.
Install sealed nutplates for the tank access panel. Makes it easier to seal the panel.
Start thinking about a jig if you plan to build with one (or two).
 
Just saw your last - yes, the stall warning system comes with the wing. Includes the vane, the switch behind the vane, wires, and the alarm you mount in your panel.

I'm still building, so I don't know how it works in flight, but the action of mine feels very similar to the other planes in the hangar I share. Not sure why others delete it and fill in the hole. Stall warnings can save your butt and AOA systems have been known to fail, even in Boeing planes (737 max, anyone?). NOT installing a stall system seems like a mistake to me.

The big thing for you to delete are the wingtips and the lenses. Will save you maybe $600-800. I had to ship mine back to Van's to get credit and they take a 20% restocking haircut. Plus shipping something that bulky was rather expensive. Was barely worth it shipping them back, but no one on this site or locally wanted to take them off my hands. A few bucks back in my pocket was better than some very large paperweights.

You could delete the 1/4 aluminum pipe, too, if you are going to use an AFS or Garmin or some other pitot tube. These can be attached to vinyl tubing for better ease of maintenance or installation. But the aluminum tubing is pretty cheap - not a huge savings here.
 
Most of my question was geared towards what modifications do I need to make to the kit when I order. It sounds like removing the tips might be the only change?

Does the stall warning come as part of the kit? (would be easier if they provided a kit parts list in advance) I am going to go with a heated pitot and AOA since I am going full IFR.

Oh yeah, I also want the capacitive sensors for the fuel tanks. Not sure if that is what they are called.

I will wait for the last minute for avionics, was just wondering when I have to install the servos.

Thanks for all the help so far!

Stall warning is included. If you decide to not install the stall warning all you have to do is fill a couple of rivet holes and you'll gain an extra access panel and some wire and a couple of connectors you can install somewhere else if you choose. You should have enough leftover VHB tape or sealant from the empennage to do the TE on the flaps and ailerons.

There really aren't a lot of mods to be done with the wings beyond the pitot mast and running conduit (if you choose) and your lighting and autopilot wires. The zip tips (as far as i know) come undrilled and install the same as the stock tips.

You can elect to change out the fuel sender screws with cap screws or philips+hex headed screws for easier service later. The 14 uses the cap screws. And you'll want some star washers to make sure you get good contact where the sealant oozes out.

If you are contemplating running a fuel return line, grab a couple of va-141 to install while you make the tanks or use bulkhead fittings with stat-o-seals. Just be really careful to not install them too far aft; the rv-14 position almost works but you still need to move them forward and down a bit to clear the tank top stiffener.

You will need two cans of sealant to build the tanks (i used about 1-1/3 cans). Wait until you're ready to start to order them though.

Email sales and they can send you the pick list for the wing kit (and all the other kits too if you want them).
 
I went with standard tips attached with piano hinge, and Paul's FlyLeds Nav/strobes. I rolled my own landing lights from Cree LED flashlight heads in Duckworth mounts, but that was before FlyLeds offered a landing light solution which IMO is a no-brainer now that it's available. Never saw the appeal of ZipTips beyond sex appeal on the ground. I would never consider them for flight utility, and allocate the money saved somewhere else in the build. Just my $.02
 
... Never saw the appeal of ZipTips beyond sex appeal on the ground. I would never consider them for flight utility, and allocate the money saved somewhere else in the build. Just my $.02

Same here. My fear of Ziptips is the low volume and the changing nature of LED lights. What happens when the light in the wingtip dies? Can you easily find a replacement in 5 years? 10?
 
I kept the Vans stall warning as well as two different (!) AOA systems. If doing again, I’d delete the Vans stall warning and cover the slot. Main reason: with good noise cancelling headphones I can’t really hear the Radio Shack buzzer. And the AOA warning tones are superior to the buzzer. But then plan on calibrating the AOA on the first flight.
 
Optionitis

(op-shun-i-tus)

1. A disease of homebuilt airplane builders, characterized by endless rationalization. Secondary symptoms include (a) slow build progress, (b) self-doubt, (c) eyestrain. Severity varies widely. Some option heavily without apparent effort, while others succumb to analysis paralysis.

Optionitis is often diagnosed concurrent with Empty Wallet Syndrome.

Epidemiology is complex, but the primary vector appears to be internet contact with other infected individuals. Most patients eventually gain some degree of immunity, if they reach their second build.
 
I went with standard tips attached with piano hinge, and Paul's FlyLeds Nav/strobes. I rolled my own landing lights from Cree LED flashlight heads in Duckworth mounts, but that was before FlyLeds offered a landing light solution which IMO is a no-brainer now that it's available. Never saw the appeal of ZipTips beyond sex appeal on the ground. I would never consider them for flight utility, and allocate the money saved somewhere else in the build. Just my $.02

Bill, the only challenge with the landing lights in the tips is that you can’t get the lights aimed in the middle of the runway. They’re great lights, and I’ve got them installed, but it would be great to get more light on centerline. Unfortunately its the design of the wingtips thats the problem.
 
If I was building now, I wouldn’t worry about buying the EFIS, but I’d be looking hard at which company, and I’d very likely be getting an Advanced Panel from AFS, set up for either AFS or Dynon. Those electronics will be a key component of your airplane, and they do have an obsolescence horizon. If you own the plane for awhile, it’s highly likely that you’ll be replacing or adding some major components and the plug-and-play modularity of Rob Hickman’s Advanced Panel would just be too attractive for me to pass up from a cost and convenience standpoint. Or...it becomes a great selling point if the buyer knows that avionics upgrades/replacements won’t necessarily require a whole new panel.

In that regard, yeah. I’d definitely be installing Van’s F-00150 ADAHRS bracket now..I can tell you it’s a PITA to put in after the fuselage is completed. Likewise, I would put in both Van’s stall warning stuff as I built the wings, as well as using the Dynon heated pitot and definitely running both pitot and AoA tubing to it. I can choose later which I want to use...or use both. And conduit...I can tell you that running Van’s 3/4 in corrugated flexible conduit down the wings root to tip could someday make your life a lot easier.

But EFIS...I’d wait. It could be 3-10 years before you get there and the EFIS you buy toward the end of your build is very likely to be much more sophisticated than the one that you can put in today.
 
Stall Warning

First Vans at least for me would not let me remove the stall warning "stuff" calling it a safety related items and could not be removed. Second I did not install it and filled it in on the 14. If it would have been a 7 I would have installed it as that airframe stalls a lot different than the 10 or 14, both of these stall characteristics are very docile. They just sink nose high wings level. The AOA does a very nice job predicting a stall with tones and verbal alerts. The 10 will also not get a stall warning installed besides the AOA. I even tried loading excess baggage putting the CG at the extreme and could not get a decent stall, even full power stalls (Which I hate) are very docile. Extreme aft CG does let you hold the nose wheel off the ground until the plane is moving fairly slow. I also tried several 60 degree bank stalls and were very mild with the airframe trying to correct to wings level in the stall. It would be interesting to hear of anyone flying a 10 or 14 gets a "interesting" stall.
 
Wing Kit delete

I'm in a similar position as the OP. Question is what if anything to delete on a standard build wing kit.

I'm not doing zip tips so I think I'm hearing there is nothing to delete. I'll figure out AOA versus stall, fuel caps, and light packages, but the kit itself looks like a go unless I missed something in the read.
 
Confession

Optionitis

(op-shun-i-tus)

1. A disease of homebuilt airplane builders, characterized by endless rationalization. Secondary symptoms include (a) slow build progress, (b) self-doubt, (c) eyestrain. Severity varies widely. Some option heavily without apparent effort, while others succumb to analysis paralysis.

Optionitis is often diagnosed concurrent with Empty Wallet Syndrome.

Epidemiology is complex, but the primary vector appears to be internet contact with other infected individuals. Most patients eventually gain some degree of immunity, if they reach their second build.

I built and RV8. I, too, was a victim of Optionitis. Took ten years to build my eight. Lots of options. Probably cost me three years in the build and Lord knows how many dollars. Working on a -10 now. I think I will follow the plans. I want to finish the build before I die of old age. Why, Dan, why didn't you warn me about this before? We should think about a twelve-step program.
 
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