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Insurance

Jcy482

Member
Does anyone have recent data on insurance costs for Elsa owned and flown by a brand new pilot? I’ve heard answers ranging from “you can’t afford it” to “you can’t get it”. Appreciate any ideas!
 
If you are an AOPA or EAA member call them. They have arrangements with a few insurance companies. If you are willing to get liability only it will save you a bundle.
 
Falcon Insurance was the lowest I could find. Zero time in an RV12 when I applied, but I have been a licensed Private Pilot for many years.. Some companies gave ridiculous $3000-$4000+ per year quotes.
 
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+ 1 for Falcon Insurance of Houston. My agent is Martha Christian, 281-540-8822. She has always found good rates for me.

-Marc
 
I received an interesting email from my insurance agent; She said that one of the companies she was getting a quote from wanted me to justify the $200K value I wanted for the hull insurance. Looking at the prices of -10's these days I wonder about that request.

Does anyone have info on a -10 that sold recently for LESS than $200k?

-Marc
 
I received an interesting email from my insurance agent; She said that one of the companies she was getting a quote from wanted me to justify the $200K value I wanted for the hull insurance. Looking at the prices of -10's these days I wonder about that request.

Does anyone have info on a -10 that sold recently for LESS than $200k?

-Marc

I haven't seen anything CLOSE to that number recently!
 
I'll post the actual cost when I receive the quote but after speaking with my agent, I learned that under-insuring can cause you to lose your plane if the cost to repair equal 80% of the "agreed" value.

IOW, if I have a hull of $200k, and the cost to repair the plane is $160k, the insurance company would total the plane, pay the hull value then sell the carcass and probably make $$$. I chose to raise my hull to $225k. It *only* cost an extra $300 dollars premium increase.

Having said that, I do know of one builder that carries liability only. His attitude is that he can repair the plane himself if it's necessary, and the $$$ saved on insurance would easily fund that.

-Marc
 
Having said that, I do know of one builder that carries liability only. His attitude is that he can repair the plane himself if it's necessary, and the $$$ saved on insurance would easily fund that.

-Marc

Not insuring the hull (liability-only coverage) is a strategy that has seen common usage for a very long time. For a pilot who has the resources to cover the cost of the hull this is a viable alternative.

My approach is a hybrid option. Ground-not-in-motion coverage protects the hull of my RV-6 in case the hangar is wiped out by a tornado (could easily happen in my location!) and provides full liability protection for a premium that is much less than full coverage. This gives me full liability coverage at all times but I don't pay for hull protection inflight. If a landing accident occurs I'll repair the plane at my expense. If I put the plane into a smoking crater....I won't have to worry about repairing the plane.....

Your agent can provide quotes for ground-not-in-motion and also ground-in-motion coverages.
 
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Not insuring the hull (liability-only coverage) is a strategy that has seen common usage for a very long time. For a pilot who has the resources to cover the cost of the hull this is a viable alternative.

My approach is a hybrid option. Ground-not-in-motion coverage protects the hull of my RV-6 in case the hangar is wiped out by a tornado (could easily happen in my location!) and provides full liability protection for a premium that is much less than full coverage. This gives me full liability coverage at all times but I don't pay for hull protection inflight. If a landing accident occurs I'll repair the plane at my expense. If I put the plane into a smoking crater....I won't have to worry about repairing the plane.....

Your agent can provide quotes for ground-not-in-motion and also ground-in-motion coverages.

Doesn't this also mean that if you auger in your significant other sees no money on the equity you have in the plane?

Definitely not dogging your decision, but it is a small part of my decision to have full coverage.
 
Doesn't this also mean that if you auger in your significant other sees no money on the equity you have in the plane?

Definitely not dogging your decision, but it is a small part of my decision to have full coverage.

Yes, everyone one needs to decide what they are comfortable with. Whether your plane is financed or paid for may also factor into your thinking. So I'm not dogging your decision either.

That said, remember the opportunity cost you are incurring for every year you pay hull premiums that you or your heirs will be highly unlikely to ever recover. For example, and just to make things simple:
1. Assume hull insurance costs an additional $1000 over GNIM + liability only (that what it was likely to be for me when I got a quote, and just for a 2-place RV).
2. Assume you own/insure the plane for 25 years.
3. Assume you invest that $1000 every year in a simple S&P500 index fund (which, BTW, is the same direction Warren Buffet has given to his wife upon his death).
4. Assume you earn the average S&P 500 return of 10% each year.
After 25 years that $1000/year would have grown to $108,000.

Though not inflation adjusted, that $108K would partially offset some of the what your heirs lost in the worst case scenario of you augering it in. Much more likely, however, you give to your heirs a fully intact plane + the $108K. I'm guessing they'll prefer the latter.;)

Again, it's more complicated than this of course, and it's a very personal decision for everyone, but people often over-insure as much as they under-insure. If you can swing it, self-insuring for hull is a good middle ground.
 
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Yes, everyone one needs to decide what they are comfortable with. Whether your plane is financed or paid for may also factor into your thinking. So I'm not dogging your decision either.

That said, remember the opportunity cost you are incurring for every year you pay hull premiums that you or your heir will be highly unlikely to ever recover. For example, and just to make things simple:
1. Assume hull insurance costs an additional $1000 over GNIM + liability only (that what it was likely to be for me when I got a quote, and just for a 2-place RV).
2. Assume you own/insure the plane for 25 years.
3. Assume you invest that $1000 every year in a simple S&P500 index fund (which, BTW, is the same direction Warren Buffet has given to his wife upon his death).
4. Assume you earn the average S&P 500 return of 10% each year.
After 25 years that $1000/year would have grown to $108,000.

Though not inflation adjusted, that $108K would partially offset some of the what your heirs lost in the worst case scenario of you augering it in. Much more likely, however, you give to you heirs a fully intact plane + the $108K. I'm guessing they'll prefer the latter.;)

Again, it's more complicated than this of course, and it's a very personal decision for everyone, but people often over-insure as much as they under-insure. If you can swing it, self-insuring for hull is a good middle ground.

Excellent post and you covered most of my rationale for the path I chose.

I've been flying my RV-6 for 21 years so the savings in premiums (which have been invested in good performing funds) would have paid for the plane more than twice over. We each have different risk management approaches and financial resources so what seems obvious to one individual will not be the only option for another.

Thanks again for your well-reasoned explanation.

Additional note: I carried full hull coverage for the first year which included Phase 1. After that year I assumed my odds for wadding up the plane went way down. :)
 
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Doesn't this also mean that if you auger in your significant other sees no money on the equity you have in the plane?

Everyone's situation is different.. If I create a smoking crater with my plane, my family will be taken care of, equity in the plane or not... With that said, I carry full coverage right now since I have less than 50 hrs of experience in my RV. As long as I have to come and go from a narrow bumpy 2000 ft grass strip with power lines at one end, I'll probably keep the coverage.. In a few years once I get a hanger next to a wide mile long paved runway, I may consider dropping hull coverage..

In the back of my mind I always think about the fact that insurance companies are in the business of making money.. They insure me because in their professional opinion, they will make money in the long run..

Lots of things to think about..
 
All superb posts everyone! Like you mention everyone's decision is different based on situation. At some point I would love to be self insuring hull but it's just not in the cards right now. Glad I got to see your guys' rational for self insuring too; I can definitely see the advantages of it if your situation is right for it.

I love it when VAF stays positive and helpful on a hotly debated area! :D Certainly gave me more options to think about as my ownership progresses.
 
Whether you carry hull or not might influence your thinking during that emergency approach and landing -- just sayin'.....
 
Whether you carry hull or not might influence your thinking during that emergency approach and landing -- just sayin'.....

No.......that line of thinking has to be settled prior to making the decision to self-insure the hull. Once made, it doesn’t come back to impact decisions while flying.
 
Whether you carry hull or not might influence your thinking during that emergency approach and landing -- just sayin'.....

The plane is replaceable... my life is not. Losing the plane is not the end of the world, losing my life, is. I can always buy another plane, even if I wad the hull. As long as I don't crater or flip and get pinned in upside down trapped by a canopy and unable to crack and chip out of the canopy.
 
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I lost a seaplane when it got swamped on a rough water lake that I probably shouldn’t have been on. I had liability only. When it came time to pop my life vest and get out I wasn’t thinking about financial loss. I was more concerned about saving my dumass!😝
 
I lost a seaplane when it got swamped on a rough water lake that I probably shouldn’t have been on. I had liability only. When it came time to pop my life vest and get out I wasn’t thinking about financial loss. I was more concerned about saving my dumass!😝

I’m an awful person for finding humor in your loss, but it’s a bit ironic that someone who lives in the desert, in a landlocked state lost an airplane in a boating accident.
 
The best part is that a great looking blonde in a black bikini fished me out of the lake on to her speedboat. The story is much funnier now than it was 18 years ago floating in Lake Mohave a mile and a half from shore.
 
Just got my quote with AIG: $2541

That's with $225k hull, PPASEL, instrument, Rotor wing (H) and glider rating with over 2000 hours.

-Marc
 
Why such a huge hull coverage? I have 65K hull coverage and a million liability for about 1K per year. I hold an ATP and MEII with 100 hrs in the 12. In the 80s when I got my PPL I was paying the same for a Cherokee 180. Seems like getting the ratings kept up with inflation. When I had a Yak-52 as a PIR I was paying 2K per year with 60 K hull coverage. The next year I dropped hull coverage and my premium dropped to $350 per year!
 
Why such a huge hull coverage?

Because if there is an incident where it will cost $160k to repair my plane, the insurance company could buy and I would be paid far less than it's worth - or I'd be stuck with a huge repair bill if I wanted to keep it as the insurance company won't pay to repair beyond a certain dollar amount.

I agree that it's a fine line we have to negotiate but I know what it cost to have airframe repairs made. A minor incident could easily pay for the last 5 years of insurance payments.

10 years ago I owned a 2005 C-172 and a fuel truck hit the wing while it was tied down. It was pretty minor damage to the leading edge but it cost $14k to repair and took 3 months! That was back when things were less expensive compared to today.

-Marc
 
45% premium increase

Just received my new premium for the yr and I was shocked. On my RV4 that I have been flying for 10 yrs, no accidents and have owned numerous planes over the last 40 years my premium went from $1113 a yr to $1618 or a 45% increase.

That is full coverage, in motion and 2m liability.

No complaints on the old premium but that kind of increase is insane.

I'm in Canada and we have less options here to chose from but will start looking in the morning.

Tim
 
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Just received my new premium for the yr and I was shocked. On my RV4 that I have been flying for 10 yrs, no accidents and have owned numerous planes over the last 40 years my premium went from $1113 a yr to $1618 or a 45% increase.

That is full coverage, in motion and 2m liability.

No complaints on the old premium but that kind of increase is insane.

I'm in Canada and we have less options here to chose from but will start looking in the morning.

Tim

1. Premiums are increasing for most people.
2. Your post suggests you may be approaching a certain age where insurers get nervous. Of course they won’t acknowledge that for fear of discrimination lawsuits.
3. Is that really $2M liability with no sub-limits? Here in the US that is pretty much unattainable.
 
Age discrimination

Option 1 – Combined Single Limit Bodily Injury (INCLUDING Passengers) and Property Damage, please select your limit: * $2,000,000

On the age thing, I'll be 64 this summer. Is this an age to be of concern?

Age discrimination is rampant in this country at least for work. Since my late 50's it's has become more and more difficult to get any consulting work. All of the people my age have been forced out, retired and gone from the industry. A whole younger age group are in charge and we know what happens there. This last year it has been impossible to get anything. For staff work, its impossible as no one is putting people on staff.

But at this stage of my life in this industry I certainly didn't expect it to be happening here with premium increases like this.

Tim
 
I wouldn’t think mid-60’s to be a concern for insurance, if your health is okay. As I said, here in the US $2M smooth is virtually unattainable. I blame our crazy contingency laws, which of course Canada doesn’t have. And while the percentage increase seems high, I know of others who are seeing $500 premium increases.
 
I guess I missed that you were talking about an RV-10 (it is an RV-12 forum, after all). My logic at 65K coverage is that at least I could buy another kit.
 
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