aadamson
Well Known Member
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Virginia ferry pilot's plane found in NM
- Thread starter aadamson
- Start date
java
Well Known Member
Gosh...
From the read of the story, he has more time than I have, even if I were to include thinking about flying... which is alot.
Makes me think of a Churchill quote... "As for me, I am an optimist. There doesn't seem to be much use being otherwise."
Let's hope for a miracle...
From the read of the story, he has more time than I have, even if I were to include thinking about flying... which is alot.
Makes me think of a Churchill quote... "As for me, I am an optimist. There doesn't seem to be much use being otherwise."
Let's hope for a miracle...
Bob Martin
Well Known Member
A nice guy
I know Jim!
He gave me some tailwheel instruction while I was transitioning to my RV-6!
A very nice guy.
My wife and I had dinner with Jim and his wife at the EAA chapter dinner meeting in Feb.
Jim is one our local DARs, flys lots of ultralights and just about anything aviation related, he loves it.
I'm really hoping this turns out well.
This is really close to home.
I know Jim!
He gave me some tailwheel instruction while I was transitioning to my RV-6!
A very nice guy.
My wife and I had dinner with Jim and his wife at the EAA chapter dinner meeting in Feb.
Jim is one our local DARs, flys lots of ultralights and just about anything aviation related, he loves it.
I'm really hoping this turns out well.
This is really close to home.
ShannonEvans
Active Member
Panhandle
Bought a Beech & flew it home from NV on Tues-Thurs this week. Flew from Albuquerque,NM to Dodge City, KS Thurs afternoon. Other than some gusty winds the weather was great with almost unlimited visability across the TX & OK panhandles. Hope things work out. Weather over AZ on Wed was IFR & bad with snow. I stayed an extra day in IFB due to weather on Wed.
Bought a Beech & flew it home from NV on Tues-Thurs this week. Flew from Albuquerque,NM to Dodge City, KS Thurs afternoon. Other than some gusty winds the weather was great with almost unlimited visability across the TX & OK panhandles. Hope things work out. Weather over AZ on Wed was IFR & bad with snow. I stayed an extra day in IFB due to weather on Wed.
CraigH@KRPH
Well Known Member
Wow! I looked into buying that airplane a year ago. Never made it up to inspect it personally (N16RK turned up shortly after hearing about it), but talked to the owner and a friend from the C170 club about it.
Hope everything turns out OK.
Hope everything turns out OK.
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Geico266
Well Known Member
I e-mailed the Civil Air Partol for Amarillo, TX, and I got the following response. I volunteered to fly down and help start to look, but I have not got an answer yet. I feel real bad for the family, not knowing what happened yet.
Dear sir,
There is great interest on the part of the family to alert the aviation community in Texas and New Mexico to this situation so as to put as many eyes on the ground as possible. So please notify any flying clubs or pilots you may know in those areas.
Regards
Phil Williams
Director of Membership
USUA Flying Club 1
Dear sir,
There is great interest on the part of the family to alert the aviation community in Texas and New Mexico to this situation so as to put as many eyes on the ground as possible. So please notify any flying clubs or pilots you may know in those areas.
Regards
Phil Williams
Director of Membership
USUA Flying Club 1
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Missing RV-6 pilot, flying CA to VA (panhandle of TX?)
Aero-News BOLO: Pilot Missing En Route From CA To VA
Last Radar Contact Over Texas Panhandle
ANN has confirmed a pilot ferrying a Vans RV-6 aircraft from California to Virginia this week has gone missing, possibly in the vicinity of the Texas panhandle. Friends and family are looking for any information that may help point rescuers in the right direction.
According to sources, Jim Willess flew commercially to California early last week to pick up the RV-6, which had been purchased by a third party. Reports indicate he began the flight eastward Wednesday, bound for Virginia's Warrenton-Fauquier Airport (W66). The first indicate of trouble came when Willess failed to check in with his family Wednesday night.
Phil Williams, Director of Membership for USUA Flying Club #1 in Virginia, told ANN Willess was flying a fire-engine red RV-6, registry N320TX (shown above.) According to Mr. Williams, the plane is equipped for IFR operation.
Search and Rescue coordinators said the last radar return from the aircraft was over northwest Texas, approximately 3 miles from the Texas-New Mexico border in the "panhandle" region. SAR crews conducted a preliminary search Saturday, but came up empty.
Willess is Training and Safety director for Club #1. Mr Williams tells ANN Willess has between 25,000-26,000 hours flying time, including "more airtime with engine-off landings in cornfields than anyone else I've ever met."
Anyone with information about Jim Willess is encouraged to contact local authorities, and to pass on that information at the email links below. Jim [ Willess BOLO, [email protected] ] END
Thoughts and Prayers.
Aero-News BOLO: Pilot Missing En Route From CA To VA
Last Radar Contact Over Texas Panhandle
ANN has confirmed a pilot ferrying a Vans RV-6 aircraft from California to Virginia this week has gone missing, possibly in the vicinity of the Texas panhandle. Friends and family are looking for any information that may help point rescuers in the right direction.
According to sources, Jim Willess flew commercially to California early last week to pick up the RV-6, which had been purchased by a third party. Reports indicate he began the flight eastward Wednesday, bound for Virginia's Warrenton-Fauquier Airport (W66). The first indicate of trouble came when Willess failed to check in with his family Wednesday night.
Phil Williams, Director of Membership for USUA Flying Club #1 in Virginia, told ANN Willess was flying a fire-engine red RV-6, registry N320TX (shown above.) According to Mr. Williams, the plane is equipped for IFR operation.
Search and Rescue coordinators said the last radar return from the aircraft was over northwest Texas, approximately 3 miles from the Texas-New Mexico border in the "panhandle" region. SAR crews conducted a preliminary search Saturday, but came up empty.
Willess is Training and Safety director for Club #1. Mr Williams tells ANN Willess has between 25,000-26,000 hours flying time, including "more airtime with engine-off landings in cornfields than anyone else I've ever met."
Anyone with information about Jim Willess is encouraged to contact local authorities, and to pass on that information at the email links below. Jim [ Willess BOLO, [email protected] ] END
Thoughts and Prayers.
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Whiskey Charlie
Well Known Member
I hear they now believe something happened closer to El Paso.
Bob Martin
Well Known Member
Jim Willess missing
Tuesday 8pm eastern
This morning, I emailed the contact on the ANN new report and asked for an update and if there was anything I or the RV community could do to help. I just received the following reply.
"Dear Sir,
I fly with Jim regularly and am Membership director of USUA flying Club one. My role in the club is to assist the families and coordinate with other organizations in situations such as this. Currently a search is being conducted in eastern New Mexico and Western Texas. If you know people in that area who are pilots that might be willing to search that would be very helpful.
The tail number of the plane is N320TX, it is a bright red RV-6, IFR rated. All indications are that it went missing late Wednesday evening. Perhaps if you have a way to contact other RV owners or EAA chapters in that area. While low flying over rough terrain is not really what GA planes are designed for, any eyes on the ground would be good.
Thank you for your concern, I will pass you thoughts along to Jim's family.
Regards
Phil Williams
Director of Membership
USUA Flying Club 1 "
If I hear anything else I'll pass it along ASAP.
He must have been making good flying time to get from California to TX in one day. I was hoping he was just flying VFR and not calling home but with more time passing.......I'm praying for a miracle.
Tuesday 8pm eastern
This morning, I emailed the contact on the ANN new report and asked for an update and if there was anything I or the RV community could do to help. I just received the following reply.
"Dear Sir,
I fly with Jim regularly and am Membership director of USUA flying Club one. My role in the club is to assist the families and coordinate with other organizations in situations such as this. Currently a search is being conducted in eastern New Mexico and Western Texas. If you know people in that area who are pilots that might be willing to search that would be very helpful.
The tail number of the plane is N320TX, it is a bright red RV-6, IFR rated. All indications are that it went missing late Wednesday evening. Perhaps if you have a way to contact other RV owners or EAA chapters in that area. While low flying over rough terrain is not really what GA planes are designed for, any eyes on the ground would be good.
Thank you for your concern, I will pass you thoughts along to Jim's family.
Regards
Phil Williams
Director of Membership
USUA Flying Club 1 "
If I hear anything else I'll pass it along ASAP.
He must have been making good flying time to get from California to TX in one day. I was hoping he was just flying VFR and not calling home but with more time passing.......I'm praying for a miracle.
a little elt history
one of my pet peeves --
two congresscritters crashed in alaska in 1970 -- they were never found, so congress passed a law requiring elt's. the law became part of 14cfr. later the sarsat network was established to track elt's, but it was also made capable of doing 406 MHz. turns out that 121.5 MHz is plagued with false alarms and failures to alarm, and the 406 is supposed to work better. (which causes one to wonder how changing the carrier frequency is supposed to improve the trigger mechanism??) now sarsat/cospas are claiming that they will not be monitoring 121.5 after sometime in 2009, reportedly frbruary. there has been no word yet on whether or not the faa will change the reg to require the 406 vice the 121.5.
it's a shame elt's can't be of much help, particularly in cases like the one in this thread. i join with the community in wishing nothing but the best outcome of this event for the pilot.
haven said:
one of my pet peeves --
two congresscritters crashed in alaska in 1970 -- they were never found, so congress passed a law requiring elt's. the law became part of 14cfr. later the sarsat network was established to track elt's, but it was also made capable of doing 406 MHz. turns out that 121.5 MHz is plagued with false alarms and failures to alarm, and the 406 is supposed to work better. (which causes one to wonder how changing the carrier frequency is supposed to improve the trigger mechanism??) now sarsat/cospas are claiming that they will not be monitoring 121.5 after sometime in 2009, reportedly frbruary. there has been no word yet on whether or not the faa will change the reg to require the 406 vice the 121.5.
it's a shame elt's can't be of much help, particularly in cases like the one in this thread. i join with the community in wishing nothing but the best outcome of this event for the pilot.
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
There is a story about the search for this missing aircraft on the front page of our local newspaper in Carlsbad. They are concentrating the search in the Guadalupe Mountains.
http://www.currentargus.com/ci_5363325
http://www.currentargus.com/ci_5363325
Brian Denk
Well Known Member
Yeah, it's been on the local news for the past two days but with NOTHING saying WHAT kind of airplane they're looking for. I mean come on, a few details might help in case anyone in the area saw or heard anything. No more than "civil air patrol is looking for a missing aircraft in southern new mexico that departed from California on it's way eastbound."
Then, more Anna Nicole and the latest drive-by shooting details. Oh, they did show a picture of an airplane....THE CAP search airplane. Thanks, that helps.
Typical.
Then, more Anna Nicole and the latest drive-by shooting details. Oh, they did show a picture of an airplane....THE CAP search airplane. Thanks, that helps.
Typical.
The problem with the 121.5 ELT's isn't triggering the ELT itself. The sattelite tracking is horribly flaky, bordering on useless, and triggers many false alarms. With the new ones, you'll truly be able to pinpoint (I use that term loosely) the aircraft position and it should be much more robust to false triggering.
az_gila said:
Nope re: the GPS
I think you may be right re: the ID. I'm really not sure.There's a planned enhancement that would allow the ELT to transmit GPS coordinates.
I should have been more precise in the last email but I was lazy
Here's the full story...
The original ELT's were built to a specification that was junk. It would rarely trigger in a crash and would false alarm frequently. 20 years ago, the spec was updated and the behavior of the ELT's was significantly improved.
The 406 ELT's achieve the higher performance by using a digital signal instead of an analog signal. Without getting into techno-babble, the end result of this essentially increases the SNR (which makes life easier for anyone or anything trying to track it).
edit: I pieced this together from a few excellent articles I read some time ago. If I can dig them up again, I'll post a link. The GPS thing is a good idea....wish I'd thought of it.
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Definitely right about the ID; a 406 MHz ELT is programmed with a unique code that gets registered with NOAA - they run the SARSAT system.jcoloccia said:Nope re: the GPS
Some 406 MHz ELTs can broadcast a GPS position if they're wired to the output of a GPS or FMS.
Dave
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
We got a full briefing on the search at the EAA meeting tonight at Carlsbad. I will leave out a couple of things they specifically asked as to not repeat, there is still quite a bit of information.
There were 14 search planes on the ramp tonight and they expect around 20 tomorrow. A larger scale thing than I expected. All the airplanes are Cessnas except for the Australian GA-8 that has some high tech sensing equipment.
The CAP guy said they are usually searching for someone with under 500 hours. This ferry pilot has around 26,000 or 27,000 hours, retired military and airline, mid 70s age.
The weather was good except for being windy. Peak gusts in nearby Guadalupe Pass on the order of 90 knots.
They showed us the ground track, which they got today. He was traveling just about due east and went over the north edge of the cultivated fields around Dell City, Texas. Radar contact was lost at about 8,000 feet on the west end of the Guadalupes, the normal place to lose radar contact at that altitude. The next place there would be radar contact at 1,000 agl would be at about the New Mexico/Texas border over in the Jal, Eunice, NM area, so that is the area they plan to search. They have concentrated on the Guadalupes so far and there has been some ground searching going on in the Guadalupes also. They have already found many airplane wreckages in the Guadalupes, but there are many there and all those so far have been accounted for.
Some possible scenarios were discussed; about what you could come up with. A point of interest is that the pilot reportedly fit very tightly in the cockpit, for headroom.
Some good things: The pilot is known to often carry survival equipment and was dressed warmly as the RV supposedly didn't have a heater (I'm guessing maybe it just didn't work well) and of course he has the military survival training.
Hoping for the best.
There were 14 search planes on the ramp tonight and they expect around 20 tomorrow. A larger scale thing than I expected. All the airplanes are Cessnas except for the Australian GA-8 that has some high tech sensing equipment.
The CAP guy said they are usually searching for someone with under 500 hours. This ferry pilot has around 26,000 or 27,000 hours, retired military and airline, mid 70s age.
The weather was good except for being windy. Peak gusts in nearby Guadalupe Pass on the order of 90 knots.
They showed us the ground track, which they got today. He was traveling just about due east and went over the north edge of the cultivated fields around Dell City, Texas. Radar contact was lost at about 8,000 feet on the west end of the Guadalupes, the normal place to lose radar contact at that altitude. The next place there would be radar contact at 1,000 agl would be at about the New Mexico/Texas border over in the Jal, Eunice, NM area, so that is the area they plan to search. They have concentrated on the Guadalupes so far and there has been some ground searching going on in the Guadalupes also. They have already found many airplane wreckages in the Guadalupes, but there are many there and all those so far have been accounted for.
Some possible scenarios were discussed; about what you could come up with. A point of interest is that the pilot reportedly fit very tightly in the cockpit, for headroom.
Some good things: The pilot is known to often carry survival equipment and was dressed warmly as the RV supposedly didn't have a heater (I'm guessing maybe it just didn't work well) and of course he has the military survival training.
Hoping for the best.
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Bob Martin
Well Known Member
Larry's Update
Larry,
Thanks for a great update......seems like real information, instead of news accounts. I know Jim and I own and fly a RV-6, Jim is no bigger than I am as a normal "bubba" and although I fill up a -6 seat, there surely aren't any fitting issues that would cause a problem.
Link to Jims pic from the ultralight site Club #1
http://usuaclub1.org/resources/Instructors.php
Now, age and fatique is quite another story and maybe size related. With filling up the seat and buckled in, you can't move around, I think typical of a sport plane. When I have traveled xc in the -6, I find 2.5 to 3 hours long enough without moving and climb out of the plane with sore joints etc.
I don't know how many times he stopped on his way from CA but he had to be making good time and a long day for sure.
Jim was not a regular RV pilot that I know of. I've know him as a flight instructor that gave me some tailwheel instruction for my tailwheel endorsement before I flew my -6 about 5 yrs ago and he is a very active member of our local EAA chapter. Lately, Jim is mostly active in flying ultralights and light sport airplanes, he is a DAR, CFI and did lots of inspections. He was a dealer for HKS engines (2 cyl-60hp-4stroke). I know the above information from talking to Jim infrequently over the years, at the occasional EAA metting I attended and most recently, my wife and I sat with Jim and his wife at out local EAA chapter dinner meeting in Feb. Being retired, Jim is doing what he loves to do, fly, work on, inspect, talk, ferry, sell, anything aviation related.
I didn't know until this happened, that Jim was ex military, had tons of hours and was in the ferrying business, but when I called his cell phone the other day, the voice mail message said "ferry" in the message, so I guess he had added that to his long list of aviation related things he does.
I say these things based on my knowledge, Jim didn't fly RV's regularly, that I know of, but he is surely is a well rounded pilot. That said, in my opinion, long xc's are hard work. So fatigue may be factor for sure.
I'm still hoping for the best, Jim has lots of experiance to pull from and I'm hoping he got to use it. Again, my prayers go out to Jim and his family and now all the people and planes that are searching for Jim.
n5lp said:
Larry,
Thanks for a great update......seems like real information, instead of news accounts. I know Jim and I own and fly a RV-6, Jim is no bigger than I am as a normal "bubba" and although I fill up a -6 seat, there surely aren't any fitting issues that would cause a problem.
Link to Jims pic from the ultralight site Club #1
http://usuaclub1.org/resources/Instructors.php
Now, age and fatique is quite another story and maybe size related. With filling up the seat and buckled in, you can't move around, I think typical of a sport plane. When I have traveled xc in the -6, I find 2.5 to 3 hours long enough without moving and climb out of the plane with sore joints etc.
I don't know how many times he stopped on his way from CA but he had to be making good time and a long day for sure.
Jim was not a regular RV pilot that I know of. I've know him as a flight instructor that gave me some tailwheel instruction for my tailwheel endorsement before I flew my -6 about 5 yrs ago and he is a very active member of our local EAA chapter. Lately, Jim is mostly active in flying ultralights and light sport airplanes, he is a DAR, CFI and did lots of inspections. He was a dealer for HKS engines (2 cyl-60hp-4stroke). I know the above information from talking to Jim infrequently over the years, at the occasional EAA metting I attended and most recently, my wife and I sat with Jim and his wife at out local EAA chapter dinner meeting in Feb. Being retired, Jim is doing what he loves to do, fly, work on, inspect, talk, ferry, sell, anything aviation related.
I didn't know until this happened, that Jim was ex military, had tons of hours and was in the ferrying business, but when I called his cell phone the other day, the voice mail message said "ferry" in the message, so I guess he had added that to his long list of aviation related things he does.
I say these things based on my knowledge, Jim didn't fly RV's regularly, that I know of, but he is surely is a well rounded pilot. That said, in my opinion, long xc's are hard work. So fatigue may be factor for sure.
I'm still hoping for the best, Jim has lots of experiance to pull from and I'm hoping he got to use it. Again, my prayers go out to Jim and his family and now all the people and planes that are searching for Jim.
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
He had hoped to get a very early start but did some work on unspecified mechanical problems that delayed him. He had made one stop at Marana Northwest Regional, near Tucson.Bob Martin said:
Originally his plan had been to make the whole trip in one day.
How much headroom one has would depend on how the airplane is set up, as well as the size of the pilot.
Bob Martin
Well Known Member
Size of Pilot
Larry,
I agree, and while writing my last post, early this morning, I failed to connect the part about maybe no cabin heat, too....he may have been dressed warmly and that fills up the cockpit even more.
Thinking about making the trip non stop, well.....
Still hoping for a miracle.
n5lp said:
Larry,
I agree, and while writing my last post, early this morning, I failed to connect the part about maybe no cabin heat, too....he may have been dressed warmly and that fills up the cockpit even more.
Thinking about making the trip non stop, well.....
Still hoping for a miracle.
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
None that I know of.TSwezey said:
They have made it clear here that they don't want anything but CAP planes in the areas where they are searching and they are searching in the most likely areas.
I understand their reasons for that but know of another search in New Mexico where an active duty Air Force pilot, after offering help, was basically sent to where there was no chance he would find the wrecked aircraft.
He did that for a while then did some investigating on his own. He was the one that found the wreckage, with his RV, one of the poorer search planes I can think of, and with no observer help.
Having done a little search work from an RV, I know visibility may not be that of a -182 or similar. But covering ground at 180-190 mph can sure make up for restricted visibility. And having 2, 3, 4+ extra pairs of eyes out there obviously helps.n5lp said:
Besides, what's so difficult about assigning sectors and altitudes to various pilots? Not rocket science to me.
If it were my friend or relative, and no TFR established. I'd be flying. Might even be flying with a TFR.
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CraigH@KRPH
Well Known Member
I'm with you Bryan. We had a Cheyenne crash out here several years ago. All the local pilots wanted to look, but CAP grounded everyone except for the CAP planes. After several days without success, the family hired some search helicopters of their own who ultimately located the wreckage.
We had several high-wing low-and-slow types (including myself) based here at the time. It just didn't make sense to me to not allow them to assist.
We had several high-wing low-and-slow types (including myself) based here at the time. It just didn't make sense to me to not allow them to assist.
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RV7Guy
Well Known Member
Elt's ineffective
After flying Search and Rescue helicopters for years and being involved in over 20 searches for downed aircraft, I can only recall one successful ELT find, and it didn't matter. Sad but true fact of the ELT world.
We did find an aircraft that had an emergency landing and pulled the ELT out and used it manually.
The other very important factor in SAR is overflying the same area at different times of the day. You simply can't fly an area and call it done. If practical each grid should be flown morning, noon and late day. Shadowing can hide an aircraft and any signally efforts.
On one search for a murder victim in Mesa AZ, the target area had been flown extensively in the early morning because of the extreme heat. Our search coordinator asked me to fly it late in the day. Sure enough, I located the body in a thicket of bushes. At any other time of the day the body would be shadowed and not visible.
CAP is great at their job. Many who haven't been involved may not be aware of some of the principle of SAR.
I sincerely hope the guy got down and is awaiting rescue.
After flying Search and Rescue helicopters for years and being involved in over 20 searches for downed aircraft, I can only recall one successful ELT find, and it didn't matter. Sad but true fact of the ELT world.
We did find an aircraft that had an emergency landing and pulled the ELT out and used it manually.
The other very important factor in SAR is overflying the same area at different times of the day. You simply can't fly an area and call it done. If practical each grid should be flown morning, noon and late day. Shadowing can hide an aircraft and any signally efforts.
On one search for a murder victim in Mesa AZ, the target area had been flown extensively in the early morning because of the extreme heat. Our search coordinator asked me to fly it late in the day. Sure enough, I located the body in a thicket of bushes. At any other time of the day the body would be shadowed and not visible.
CAP is great at their job. Many who haven't been involved may not be aware of some of the principle of SAR.
I sincerely hope the guy got down and is awaiting rescue.
n5lp said:
Why do they want stuff about a search and rescue mission kept secret?
I agree about additional help; I can see why they wouldn't want everyone and their brother out in a small area, but it seems like more eyes and more planes would be better if people were coordinated in the search.
Thomas
Civil Air Patrol
I can appreciate the heartfelt comments about wanting to get out and find people missing. I would want each of you to help find me if I were down.
I am a Civil Air Patrol volunteer and pilot. Just this morning, we did a two hour training session for Search and Rescue and scanning techniques in a C-182 over a simulated crash site, with practice ELT and a canvass "plane" in a remote area.
Even with leaves off the trees and the "simulated crash site" partially out in the open, it was difficult to spot the scene, even with the practice ELT getting us into position. Our standard proceedure to fly is 1000 feet AGL and 80 knots when flying a grid (square, rectangle, expanding square, creeping grid, standard grid or geographical terrain). 2000 feet AGL and 120 knots when flying the "enroute" grid, located 1/2 mile off anticipated route, then fly it back another 1/2 mile from last line of flight, etc, etc.
This takes an extensive amount of personnel on the ground to coordinate search efforts (often including ground teams in contact with aircrews) and crews of three (Mission Pilot, Mission Observer and Mission Scanner) per plane to run the proper grids. This takes precision to do correctly so as not to miss an area or overfly the same route twice, except to overfly as planned to take advantage of sunlight and changes in shadows. Grids are pre-establised for every sectional chart and flights alternate grids so CAP planes do not overlap an active grid (think wind drift).
The last thing CAP needs are well wishers blasting through an area where each Observer and Scanner are concentrating looking at the ground (and not another flight in the area). The Pilot is concentrating on flying a proper grid, controlling slow flight and maintaining a very narrow altitude range in bumpy conditions. Have you practiced precision slow flight for 3 to 4 hours at a time? This is hard work.
The G8 Airvans are equiped with the ARCHER sytem, Airborne Real-time Cueing Hyperspectral Enhanced Reconnaissance camera. If CAP knows the paint code on the missing aircraft, this can be loaded into the computer system and this paint color will be located if they fly over it. (Cessna white differs from other manufacturers white, etc.) This is a very technical piece of equipment and only CAP offers it for SAR and Homeland Security.
If you wish to assist, then I suggest considering joining the Civil Air Patrol. CAP needs good people and pilots to fulfill their missions. Our squadron meet two hours per week for training and provide monthly SAR training sessions to be as prepared as possible when called upon.
Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
I can appreciate the heartfelt comments about wanting to get out and find people missing. I would want each of you to help find me if I were down.
I am a Civil Air Patrol volunteer and pilot. Just this morning, we did a two hour training session for Search and Rescue and scanning techniques in a C-182 over a simulated crash site, with practice ELT and a canvass "plane" in a remote area.
Even with leaves off the trees and the "simulated crash site" partially out in the open, it was difficult to spot the scene, even with the practice ELT getting us into position. Our standard proceedure to fly is 1000 feet AGL and 80 knots when flying a grid (square, rectangle, expanding square, creeping grid, standard grid or geographical terrain). 2000 feet AGL and 120 knots when flying the "enroute" grid, located 1/2 mile off anticipated route, then fly it back another 1/2 mile from last line of flight, etc, etc.
This takes an extensive amount of personnel on the ground to coordinate search efforts (often including ground teams in contact with aircrews) and crews of three (Mission Pilot, Mission Observer and Mission Scanner) per plane to run the proper grids. This takes precision to do correctly so as not to miss an area or overfly the same route twice, except to overfly as planned to take advantage of sunlight and changes in shadows. Grids are pre-establised for every sectional chart and flights alternate grids so CAP planes do not overlap an active grid (think wind drift).
The last thing CAP needs are well wishers blasting through an area where each Observer and Scanner are concentrating looking at the ground (and not another flight in the area). The Pilot is concentrating on flying a proper grid, controlling slow flight and maintaining a very narrow altitude range in bumpy conditions. Have you practiced precision slow flight for 3 to 4 hours at a time? This is hard work.
The G8 Airvans are equiped with the ARCHER sytem, Airborne Real-time Cueing Hyperspectral Enhanced Reconnaissance camera. If CAP knows the paint code on the missing aircraft, this can be loaded into the computer system and this paint color will be located if they fly over it. (Cessna white differs from other manufacturers white, etc.) This is a very technical piece of equipment and only CAP offers it for SAR and Homeland Security.
If you wish to assist, then I suggest considering joining the Civil Air Patrol. CAP needs good people and pilots to fulfill their missions. Our squadron meet two hours per week for training and provide monthly SAR training sessions to be as prepared as possible when called upon.
Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
So coordinate the volunteers. Assign grid areas and altitudes. Require two person crews - one fly, one observe.gorbak said:
sure have. Even while the person in the left seat trying to kill me for hours at a time! I.e., flight instruction!!
Sorry - still of the opinion that having amateurs participate might be stepping on the jump boot toes.
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frankh
Well Known Member
Certainly made me think
about a PLB. Hang the thing around your neck and remember to activate it on the way down.
Seems to offer about the best chance of resue in a remote area. If the plane ends up such that the signal can't get out is probably the biggest issue.
Sure hope they find him soon..
about a PLB. Hang the thing around your neck and remember to activate it on the way down.
Seems to offer about the best chance of resue in a remote area. If the plane ends up such that the signal can't get out is probably the biggest issue.
Sure hope they find him soon..
az_gila
Well Known Member
Paint codes
Very interesting, does this mean we should register our paint code and paint manufacturer with the CAP?
Or at least with a knowledgeable person at our home base?
This sounds like a great tool, but getting it the correct data seems to be the key...
gil in Tucson
gorbak said:
Very interesting, does this mean we should register our paint code and paint manufacturer with the CAP?
Or at least with a knowledgeable person at our home base?
This sounds like a great tool, but getting it the correct data seems to be the key...
gil in Tucson
frankh
Well Known Member
Flares?
Thinking about the downed airplane scenario again. I have not heard anyone mention the idea of carrying red rocket or pistol fired flares.
Clearly no one wants to start a forest fire and I guess the idea of pyrotechnics inside the cabin is less than appealing but it seems that there is a big risk of the CAP plane flying close by and not being able to spot the crash.
An aerial flare would seem to solve this issue assuming someone was able to hear the engine of the search plane and there was sufficient gap in the trees.
Thoughts??
Frank
Thinking about the downed airplane scenario again. I have not heard anyone mention the idea of carrying red rocket or pistol fired flares.
Clearly no one wants to start a forest fire and I guess the idea of pyrotechnics inside the cabin is less than appealing but it seems that there is a big risk of the CAP plane flying close by and not being able to spot the crash.
An aerial flare would seem to solve this issue assuming someone was able to hear the engine of the search plane and there was sufficient gap in the trees.
Thoughts??
Frank
Coordinating volunteers
Brian,
I agree with you 100% on coordinating volunteers. In fact, that is what we do once people join CAP! Might just as well join so the coordination efforts are standardized. Unfortunately, our experimental private planes do not have CAP radios, frequencies, and ELT directional finding equipment as standard equipment. CAP does not allow Experimental catagory planes to fly CAP missions. Brian, I appreciate your understanding of spending large time periods in slow and sometimes uncomfortable flight. You know how hard this can be!
Seriously, the reason three person crews are standard is so the pilot can concentrate on flying the plane on a precision course and altitude at low levels in a challenging environment. The Mission Scanner in the left rear is the substitute eyes on the ground for the pilot and operates the CAP air to ground radio frequencies, often coordinating ground teams. The Mission Observer in front right seat is also an observer for the right side, the navigator, Becker operator (ELT directional finder) and avionics radio operator. This set up is the most effecient method of searching and keeps safety high on the scale. If you are a CAP member on a funded mission (Air Force approved mission) then you are covered by govt. insurance and benefits and all flight costs are covered. Even if you use your own personal(approved) certified plane with CAP equipment installed.
Our squadron does offer training and coordination for disaster relief efforts from private pilots (even experimental). This is utilized to get necessities to disaster areas by plane prior to the FEMA efforts getting in place. This is for the first three days immediately after a large disaster. This is hard work to organize, increases our hours of training (by nearly double) and outside volunteers have trained with CAP for these possible missions. Not all CAP squadrons offer this as many pilots want to help during a disaster but they have not gone thru any preliminary coordination or training. The key is to coordinate and train prior to a disaster.
Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
Brian,
I agree with you 100% on coordinating volunteers. In fact, that is what we do once people join CAP! Might just as well join so the coordination efforts are standardized. Unfortunately, our experimental private planes do not have CAP radios, frequencies, and ELT directional finding equipment as standard equipment. CAP does not allow Experimental catagory planes to fly CAP missions. Brian, I appreciate your understanding of spending large time periods in slow and sometimes uncomfortable flight. You know how hard this can be!
Seriously, the reason three person crews are standard is so the pilot can concentrate on flying the plane on a precision course and altitude at low levels in a challenging environment. The Mission Scanner in the left rear is the substitute eyes on the ground for the pilot and operates the CAP air to ground radio frequencies, often coordinating ground teams. The Mission Observer in front right seat is also an observer for the right side, the navigator, Becker operator (ELT directional finder) and avionics radio operator. This set up is the most effecient method of searching and keeps safety high on the scale. If you are a CAP member on a funded mission (Air Force approved mission) then you are covered by govt. insurance and benefits and all flight costs are covered. Even if you use your own personal(approved) certified plane with CAP equipment installed.
Our squadron does offer training and coordination for disaster relief efforts from private pilots (even experimental). This is utilized to get necessities to disaster areas by plane prior to the FEMA efforts getting in place. This is for the first three days immediately after a large disaster. This is hard work to organize, increases our hours of training (by nearly double) and outside volunteers have trained with CAP for these possible missions. Not all CAP squadrons offer this as many pilots want to help during a disaster but they have not gone thru any preliminary coordination or training. The key is to coordinate and train prior to a disaster.
Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
CAP isn't Perfect - but they are very good!
I hope this won't turn into a CAP-bashing thread....those guys and gals really go out of their way to do a service to us all. Not only are they volunteering their time, airplanes, and money during an actual search - they also do it on nights and weekends for training. I have never been in the CAP, but I spend a lot of time doing volunteer rescue work, and you don't pick up the necessary skills without a lot of dedicated time BEFORE the emergency occurs. You don?t just show up on the day of a search and become a hero. To think that you will is pure hubris, and potentially insulting to those that have put in the time ? time and again, with no reward or recognition. If you search without using an established pattern, then you haven?t really proven that the area has been searched ? it?s like taking a spoonful of water out of the ocean on one side of the boat, and putting back in on the other.
A few years back, I helped run a huge aerial search operation in east Texas (and points farther west), using everything from the CAP, military aircraft, and civilian research planes up to and including an ER-2. It was a massive effort, and the guys I could depend on the most to bring back a map with an X saying "this block has been searched" was the CAP (Yeah, the ER-2 covered a 900 mile long, 30 mile wide swath in just three hours - but it took a team of photo analysts a month to look over the film!). We didn't close the airspace, because it was too large an area, and we didn't want to inconvenience the public that much - but I was always worried about traffic - and the safety of everyone involved.
If you really feel that you can do some good searching on your own, and there aren't any TFR's, you can certainly do so. Pat pointed out several potential safety ?gotchas?, not the least of which is watching out for other traffic while you?re trying to concentrate on the ground. Don?t be a hazard to yourself and others.
Interesting thoughts from Pat on Multispectral Imaging. This was one of the new and experimental technologies we tested back in ?03. The one we were using flew in the back of a DC-3, took three guys to operate (in addition to the aircrew), and generated data at the rate of 2.0 TerraBytes in a four-hour flight. Data reduction and analysis was a big problem! I?m glad to hear that it has reached a level where there are production units ? we played with it for a month with little result ? but we were looking for tiny pieces, and not an entire aircraft. I expect it would be better for that!
Paul
I hope this won't turn into a CAP-bashing thread....those guys and gals really go out of their way to do a service to us all. Not only are they volunteering their time, airplanes, and money during an actual search - they also do it on nights and weekends for training. I have never been in the CAP, but I spend a lot of time doing volunteer rescue work, and you don't pick up the necessary skills without a lot of dedicated time BEFORE the emergency occurs. You don?t just show up on the day of a search and become a hero. To think that you will is pure hubris, and potentially insulting to those that have put in the time ? time and again, with no reward or recognition. If you search without using an established pattern, then you haven?t really proven that the area has been searched ? it?s like taking a spoonful of water out of the ocean on one side of the boat, and putting back in on the other.
A few years back, I helped run a huge aerial search operation in east Texas (and points farther west), using everything from the CAP, military aircraft, and civilian research planes up to and including an ER-2. It was a massive effort, and the guys I could depend on the most to bring back a map with an X saying "this block has been searched" was the CAP (Yeah, the ER-2 covered a 900 mile long, 30 mile wide swath in just three hours - but it took a team of photo analysts a month to look over the film!). We didn't close the airspace, because it was too large an area, and we didn't want to inconvenience the public that much - but I was always worried about traffic - and the safety of everyone involved.
If you really feel that you can do some good searching on your own, and there aren't any TFR's, you can certainly do so. Pat pointed out several potential safety ?gotchas?, not the least of which is watching out for other traffic while you?re trying to concentrate on the ground. Don?t be a hazard to yourself and others.
Interesting thoughts from Pat on Multispectral Imaging. This was one of the new and experimental technologies we tested back in ?03. The one we were using flew in the back of a DC-3, took three guys to operate (in addition to the aircrew), and generated data at the rate of 2.0 TerraBytes in a four-hour flight. Data reduction and analysis was a big problem! I?m glad to hear that it has reached a level where there are production units ? we played with it for a month with little result ? but we were looking for tiny pieces, and not an entire aircraft. I expect it would be better for that!
Paul
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Smoke is great
Frank,
Flares are great as long as they don't come too close to the plane! CAP just wants to save lives. If a flare is shot, it may help but some of this effect may be lost during bright days and glare on the windshield. Night flights are rare.
Smoke is a great tool for being located. Today, during SAR flight training, we could see numerous small fires (smoke actually) from over 10 miles away. Clean up and burning of broken limbs is going on from last months ice storm.
So a very important key to being found is to be as visible as possible. Smoke can be seen from a very large distance in a plane. Matches in a waterproof container may be better than flares. I personally carry flint and steel and waterproof container with matches in my survival pack.
Gil,
The ARCHER system is such a hyper sensitive system that it really can determine the difference between Ford blue and GMC blue on a car while flying overhead. Keeping the actual paint code or name could be very beneficial. I.E. Sherwin Williams Jet Glo Poppy Red color is different from other red pigments and can be identified from this system. Fortunately, aircraft manufacturers use large quantities of the same colors. This helps when searching for a particular manufactured aircraft with a known paint scheme. Experimentals are different and use "everything", so having this written down could assist in setting up the ARCHER system. CAP does not keep a database of individual paint on planes but does have the database of the name and paint code for major paint manufacturers along with a bunch of other colors or reflective characteristics of metal, aluminum, plastics....you name it. If you can see it, it has a reflective "signature" and can be recorded and pinpointed later out of other "stuff". Based on color, this system can determine if the green you see in a field is corn, alfalfa or beans. It is a great system to assist in many missions, including SAR.
Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
Frank,
Flares are great as long as they don't come too close to the plane! CAP just wants to save lives. If a flare is shot, it may help but some of this effect may be lost during bright days and glare on the windshield. Night flights are rare.
Smoke is a great tool for being located. Today, during SAR flight training, we could see numerous small fires (smoke actually) from over 10 miles away. Clean up and burning of broken limbs is going on from last months ice storm.
So a very important key to being found is to be as visible as possible. Smoke can be seen from a very large distance in a plane. Matches in a waterproof container may be better than flares. I personally carry flint and steel and waterproof container with matches in my survival pack.
Gil,
The ARCHER system is such a hyper sensitive system that it really can determine the difference between Ford blue and GMC blue on a car while flying overhead. Keeping the actual paint code or name could be very beneficial. I.E. Sherwin Williams Jet Glo Poppy Red color is different from other red pigments and can be identified from this system. Fortunately, aircraft manufacturers use large quantities of the same colors. This helps when searching for a particular manufactured aircraft with a known paint scheme. Experimentals are different and use "everything", so having this written down could assist in setting up the ARCHER system. CAP does not keep a database of individual paint on planes but does have the database of the name and paint code for major paint manufacturers along with a bunch of other colors or reflective characteristics of metal, aluminum, plastics....you name it. If you can see it, it has a reflective "signature" and can be recorded and pinpointed later out of other "stuff". Based on color, this system can determine if the green you see in a field is corn, alfalfa or beans. It is a great system to assist in many missions, including SAR.
Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
n5lp
fugio ergo sum
I think there is a difficult balance of public responsibility and personal freedom when it comes to our flying.
CAP briefed us yesterday and, of course, emphasized "no flight plan."
I could file a flight plan for every flight but if I did that I would have to give up flying. To me, flying is mostly about the freedom. Take off, go somewhere, discover what is there and follow the lead of what you find.
I am also influenced by my several years as a Flight Service Specialist where I gave weather briefings and took flight plans all day long and thought I was helping. Today, I cringe at contacting Flight Service, with all their CYA statements that have nothing to do with what is going on, and their advisories from 1,500 miles away, from a person that has no idea of my local terrain.
My choices are to use flight following, when feasible, which is usually when you don't need it much, and to self weather brief, and to carry a personal locater beacon.
The beacon is amazing technology, with an integrated GPS receiver that should pretty much pinpoint my location immediately but it has some drawbacks.
First is that it is not self activating. I looked up data on aviation ELTs today and found that of all the ELT activations, about 3 percent are due to actual difficulties. We all know that they fail to activate a huge amount of the time in an actual emergency.
Second, I haven't come up with a good way to mount it in the RV. It doesn't seem to be designed with this sort of use in mind. I just loop the wrist strap through the seatbelt, but it doesn't look like a high G solution. Maybe if the Gs are a lot higher than it can withstand, it won't matter.
On the good side it is portable. I am not only irresponsible in flying alone, without a flightplan, but I like to hike the same way, alone and without a plan. I routinely carry the PLB in a backpack, and it gives me some comfort while hiking in the very same area where the CAP search is now taking place, some of which is very very rough terrain. The cost, compared to some noise reduction headsets, which many think are cheap, is not very significant. As to whether these devices, and others like GPS and cellphones encourage irresponsible actions I will not take a stand.
I do wish we could just sign a waiver that says we are responsible for our actions, don't come look for us, but that doesn't really seem to be in the cards.
CAP briefed us yesterday and, of course, emphasized "no flight plan."
I could file a flight plan for every flight but if I did that I would have to give up flying. To me, flying is mostly about the freedom. Take off, go somewhere, discover what is there and follow the lead of what you find.
I am also influenced by my several years as a Flight Service Specialist where I gave weather briefings and took flight plans all day long and thought I was helping. Today, I cringe at contacting Flight Service, with all their CYA statements that have nothing to do with what is going on, and their advisories from 1,500 miles away, from a person that has no idea of my local terrain.
My choices are to use flight following, when feasible, which is usually when you don't need it much, and to self weather brief, and to carry a personal locater beacon.
The beacon is amazing technology, with an integrated GPS receiver that should pretty much pinpoint my location immediately but it has some drawbacks.
First is that it is not self activating. I looked up data on aviation ELTs today and found that of all the ELT activations, about 3 percent are due to actual difficulties. We all know that they fail to activate a huge amount of the time in an actual emergency.
Second, I haven't come up with a good way to mount it in the RV. It doesn't seem to be designed with this sort of use in mind. I just loop the wrist strap through the seatbelt, but it doesn't look like a high G solution. Maybe if the Gs are a lot higher than it can withstand, it won't matter.
On the good side it is portable. I am not only irresponsible in flying alone, without a flightplan, but I like to hike the same way, alone and without a plan. I routinely carry the PLB in a backpack, and it gives me some comfort while hiking in the very same area where the CAP search is now taking place, some of which is very very rough terrain. The cost, compared to some noise reduction headsets, which many think are cheap, is not very significant. As to whether these devices, and others like GPS and cellphones encourage irresponsible actions I will not take a stand.
I do wish we could just sign a waiver that says we are responsible for our actions, don't come look for us, but that doesn't really seem to be in the cards.
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the_other_dougreeves
Well Known Member
I've been following CAP's implementation of this system for some time. It promises to really improve the ground-searching capabilities of CAP. This, along with the ability to real-time link hi-res digital images from the aircraft along with ADS-B like equipment could really make a big difference in what CAP can do. These systems are way ahead of what we had in the mid 1990s, when we were happy to have a LORAN in the aircraft and forget actually having a dedicated FM radio or a decent intercom system that made it easy for the observers to talk to the mission comm folks (ARRGH! Did NXXXXX miss roll call again? Do I presume them missing?)gorbak said:
The problem, as always, is training the people, having them available and getting the equipment in their hands. I'm not saying that this isn't the case with CAP today, just that this was a big problem we faced ten years ago. The fact that CAP is sending one of the ARCHER systems to this search is promising. However, they have, what, 16 of these systems? How much can they give in the first 24-48 hours? I'm not bashing, I just really an curious.
Doug
Low Pass said:
I guess my little bit of sarcasm didn't come through
!I don't usually file flight plans ... I use flight following when traveling or going over less populated areas. I like the freedom to deviate whenever I want without worrying about the flight plan.
Are there specific qualifications for the CAP? Not sure we have much need for search and rescue most times here in central IN, but the southern part of the state is far less popular. I've always wondered about them as they come and shoot approaches at our airport, etc.
T.
AZtailwind
Well Known Member
Other flight Plan files
I Don't usualy file a VFR flight plan but I try to file with someone at the destination- and get it on tape: - such at your towered airport: "request left turn south to Payson"- the last two words will get it on tape or: "ABQ center experimental 1234F 20 miles north of X VFR, 7,500, just wanted the next center frequency of your sector eastbound, my destination is Alomagordo" in this way you just talk through the system and get your position and your destination is recorded also.
I Don't usualy file a VFR flight plan but I try to file with someone at the destination- and get it on tape: - such at your towered airport: "request left turn south to Payson"- the last two words will get it on tape or: "ABQ center experimental 1234F 20 miles north of X VFR, 7,500, just wanted the next center frequency of your sector eastbound, my destination is Alomagordo" in this way you just talk through the system and get your position and your destination is recorded also.
GrayHawk
Well Known Member
I also have not been filing flight plans & resist it for the same reasons. But I have been following this thread and thinking about things that might make flying without a flight plan safer. Some of these have been mentioned and maybe other more experienced pilots can add to the list:n5lp said:
- Give copy of your flight plan to several people (Aeroplanner ceates a pdf file).
- Flight following wherever possible
- Position reports on a regular basis, to nearest FSS, if possible. I understand this can be done without a filed flight plan.
- Pireps on a regular basis
- Cell phone calls at every stop to flight plan recipients.
- At airports along the way give position & direction advisories. Not logged but maybe some one will remember.
- Maybe be proactive and migrate to the newer ELT systems.
gmcjetpilot
Well Known Member
Great ideas. Only comment is there are some very remote parts of this country even today. I am guilty of taking some direct routes over the Cascades and Sierra Nevada mountains that put me over remote tough terrain. In this case they lost the radar and there was NO radio calls? It could be physical incapacitation. I hope not in this case and hope for the best, but sometimes planes are not found. I agree the new gen of ELT's should give you a better chance of being found. I assume they will have similar problems of not activating like current ELT's. It does not matter how wizzbang the electrics are if they never get turned on.GrayHawk said:
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David Johnson
Well Known Member
One more item to add:GrayHawk said:
-Wear a PLB so you can get to it fast and activate it in a panic.
