I would like opinions on a Mattituck TMX320 that has never been run. but has been sitting in a garage for nine years on the front of an airplane. It doesn't have dessicant plugs installed but the owner thinks it was set up for long term storage. What are the odds it would still be OK? Any other or things I should be aware of? Thoughts on the value of this engine?
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NOS ENGINE
- Thread starter ivana
- Start date
Nobody knows. Pull a jug, look inside.
N941WR
Legacy Member
This is god advice but if you havr access to a color borescope, you can see inside the cylinders snd case without pulling a cylinder.
My first engine was overhauled and pickled in 1959. Here is what my cylinders looked like and the cam and other internals were equally as clean. Oh, the engine was stored in a garage in Louisiana.
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Raymo
Well Known Member
You will get many varying opinions, as have similar threads. No one can know what you should expect but, in general, if it was stored in a low humidity environment, odds are good that it is rust free inside.
But, you should pull one or more cylinders (one at a time) and take a peek inside to be sure. Cam shaft and gears are the biggest concern. If you can get it for the price of a core, there is not much to lose.
But, you should pull one or more cylinders (one at a time) and take a peek inside to be sure. Cam shaft and gears are the biggest concern. If you can get it for the price of a core, there is not much to lose.
Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
Bill - I suspect you're saying one can look inside the accessory case and cylinders without doing anything too invasive. If you're actually saying there's a way to look inside the crankcase without pulling cylinders, please DO share your technique as this is the "magic" solution that most engine buyers are looking for.
(Oh, I should mention that I DO consider drilling a big hole in the crankcase to be "somewhat invasive"...
)David Paule
Well Known Member
I've got a similar engine that right now is just over 13 years old. It was run at the factory and then preserved. The engine was stored in Wyoming and Colorado, places where it's relatively dry and usually, rust is not an issue.
Next week it'll get built up (add prop governor, oil filter adapter, starter, change from fixed-pitch to constant speed configuration, etc.), then test run and pickled again. Hopefully it won't be another 13 years before I can fly it.
When I get it back from the shop, I'll report on how it went.
Dave
Next week it'll get built up (add prop governor, oil filter adapter, starter, change from fixed-pitch to constant speed configuration, etc.), then test run and pickled again. Hopefully it won't be another 13 years before I can fly it.
When I get it back from the shop, I'll report on how it went.
Dave
Mike S
Senior Curmudgeon
N941WR
Legacy Member
Bill - I suspect you're saying one can look inside the accessory case and cylinders without doing anything too invasive. If you're actually saying there's a way to look inside the crankcase without pulling cylinders, please DO share your technique as this is the "magic" solution that most engine buyers are looking for.
(Oh, I should mention that I DO consider drilling a big hole in the crankcase to be "somewhat invasive"...
I was thinking a jackhammer would be invasive. a drilled hole can be welded shut.
I was thinking of going through the plug opening to check the cylinder heads and valves, and through the accessory case & oil filler neck.
Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
Hmmm, I never considered a jackhammer. Now I KNOW my toolbox is under-equipped!
Checking the cam would be pretty difficult if accessing via the dipstick tube, but now you've got me thinking that going straight up from one of the drain plugs in the oil pan might allow at least a glimpse of the cam. Hmmm. I might try this once I drain the oil from my NOS 11 year old engine, just to see how much can be seen.
Checking the cam would be pretty difficult if accessing via the dipstick tube, but now you've got me thinking that going straight up from one of the drain plugs in the oil pan might allow at least a glimpse of the cam. Hmmm. I might try this once I drain the oil from my NOS 11 year old engine, just to see how much can be seen.
Toobuilder
Well Known Member
On the 360's I've seen, going in through the dipstick only gets you a view of the sump. The crank case is essentially closed off above, with only a few narrow slits to provide access to the actual crankcase area. Going stright up through a drain plug would probably be the only shot unless you had a highly articulated flex borescope.
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
It seems a lot of the discussion is on the condition of the cylinders. What about the cam shaft?
N941WR
Legacy Member
When you remove the cylinders, you have a clear view of the camshaft.
Here is a picture of my original engine with one cylinder removed. Although this picture doesn't show the cam, it is visible.
Seeing the condition of the inside of the cylinders should give you a good idea if you need to pull one for further inspection or not. If there is any doubt, pull the cylinder.
N941WR
Legacy Member
You are correct, I doubt you can see the cam but should have a view of other steal parts and if anything looks questionable, time to pull a cylinder.
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
Exactly - that's why I'm thinking it might be prudent to pull at least one jug.
N941WR
Legacy Member
And that's why I'm saying to get a scope and check it out through the sparkplug hole first. An engine that has been properly pickled should have no issue and looking through the sparkplug hole w/o pulling the jug and looking at the gears via the accessory case are a good way to see if further disassembly may be required.
jdeas
Well Known Member
I purchased an IO-360 under the same circumstances for core value
I was told that the cam was the most likely issue when an engine sits this long and should be looked at.
You can pull a cylinder without disturbing the piston rings to take a look. It's close, but when removing the cylinder slip the wrist pin before the piston rings exit the barrel.
In my case everything looked clean and 200hrs later the engine and oil analysis are still good. The only issue I have is dried seals and gaskets seeping oil.
*View from #1 Cylinder base
I was told that the cam was the most likely issue when an engine sits this long and should be looked at.
You can pull a cylinder without disturbing the piston rings to take a look. It's close, but when removing the cylinder slip the wrist pin before the piston rings exit the barrel.
In my case everything looked clean and 200hrs later the engine and oil analysis are still good. The only issue I have is dried seals and gaskets seeping oil.
*View from #1 Cylinder base
Auburntsts
Well Known Member
Don't disagree. But there are questions as to whether it was properly pickled in the OP so if it were an engine I was looking to buy I'd like a little more investigation to be sure before I paid good money for it.
Canadian_JOY
Well Known Member
This comment leads to the next logical step...
If the seller is willing to let a cylinder be pulled, then he will logically expect, if it is a good engine, to receive close to full price for the engine, once it has been determined to have a rust-free interior.
On the other hand, if the seller is not willing to allow a cylinder to be removed so the internals can be inspected, the buyer is assuming a very large risk, thus the benefit of pricing goes to the buyer. The seller should be willing to take core value or perhaps a bit more, but not full price unless the internal condition of the engine can be verified.
It's a pretty simple game - he who takes the risk saves the money if it all goes well. He who isn't willing to take the risk pays the big money to be absolved of the risk.
If I may ask what is core value of a brand new engine? These were $25K plus when new 9 years ago and have proven to be good engines with ONE caveat
The ECI cylinders they were built with.Something else to look into before purchase.
RHill
AK4x4
Well Known Member
Core value
Current core price (usually including a crank and case guaranty) for a certified 4 cylinder Lycoming is 3-6K depending on the desirability of the particular engine model. You should read Lycoming Service Letter No. L180B and compare how the engine you are considering was stored vs. how Lycoming recommends it should be stored. Remember standard TBO is 2000hrs or 12 years whichever comes first. The engine in question in my opinion is USED and only worth core price, unless a partial disassembly and comprehensive inspection are performed. Good luck, Russ
Current core price (usually including a crank and case guaranty) for a certified 4 cylinder Lycoming is 3-6K depending on the desirability of the particular engine model. You should read Lycoming Service Letter No. L180B and compare how the engine you are considering was stored vs. how Lycoming recommends it should be stored. Remember standard TBO is 2000hrs or 12 years whichever comes first. The engine in question in my opinion is USED and only worth core price, unless a partial disassembly and comprehensive inspection are performed. Good luck, Russ
Well........The seller may disagree. Outside of manufacture run in time.The engine was never run(The OP didn't elaborate on if it had been hung or was sitting in a box.I suspect the ECI cylinders would be replaced by ECI for free or shipping expense as part of there recall and all questions concerning this engines internals could be addressed for time and labor. I would put this engine at the 18K level given its a complete package including all accessories,will have had new cylinders installed and all AD's/SB's addressed and logged,Given the circumstances of the original purchase,may have some level of warranty left.Now to play the other side, A tare down with everything sent out for tags including cylinders $6K off the original price still leaves you in the low to mid teens.Ebay part out value would put you there also. This was built as an experimental engine and outside of the cylinder issues can fly as-is. Hard to see this go for $5k because it sat too long.If that's the case, I'll write a check today.
RHill
Could have ECi cyls, Lycoming cyls and or Superior Cylinders. We used them all randomly. All engines were long term preserved before they left our facility.
Condition now depends on a lot of things. Was it ever turned over by hand. Not good if so. I know Lyc says to pull it through but all that does is wipe the oil off things as far as I am concerned. Was it stored in a climate controlled environment? Etc. The best thing to do is pull one cylinder and look. The Cost to do so should be subtracted from the purchase price and if its good inside one cylinder hole its good everywhere. The preservation oil turns kind of waxy or greasy over time so If you see what is a lot of gunky looking oil on things that is a good thing. as far as value if it was good inside I think it would be worth 4-5 grand less that what a new one costs now less the inspection costs and cost to update any AD's that may have come out in the past 12 years.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
Condition now depends on a lot of things. Was it ever turned over by hand. Not good if so. I know Lyc says to pull it through but all that does is wipe the oil off things as far as I am concerned. Was it stored in a climate controlled environment? Etc. The best thing to do is pull one cylinder and look. The Cost to do so should be subtracted from the purchase price and if its good inside one cylinder hole its good everywhere. The preservation oil turns kind of waxy or greasy over time so If you see what is a lot of gunky looking oil on things that is a good thing. as far as value if it was good inside I think it would be worth 4-5 grand less that what a new one costs now less the inspection costs and cost to update any AD's that may have come out in the past 12 years.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
David Paule
Well Known Member
My Lycoming O-320 has finally run, after something like 13 years since it was built and factory-preserved. Please refer back to post #7.
The engine shop offered to put 9 to 1 pistons in it and I said yes. Afterwards, I asked how it looked inside and the engine guy said "very good."
The brief run today was without incident. It started right up, ran well, and shut down with no drama.
Although I'd had some concern during the last couple of years wondering if this was a good engine or if I'd bought a mistake, right now today I'm one happy man.
Thanks to Rocky, from whom I bought it, to DaleB, who sold me my P-Mags, and to Joe, who did the engine work and ran it today.
Dave
The engine shop offered to put 9 to 1 pistons in it and I said yes. Afterwards, I asked how it looked inside and the engine guy said "very good."
The brief run today was without incident. It started right up, ran well, and shut down with no drama.
Although I'd had some concern during the last couple of years wondering if this was a good engine or if I'd bought a mistake, right now today I'm one happy man.
Thanks to Rocky, from whom I bought it, to DaleB, who sold me my P-Mags, and to Joe, who did the engine work and ran it today.
Dave
