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  #151  
Old 12-18-2016, 11:24 PM
Paul 5r4 Paul 5r4 is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Foley, Al
Posts: 604
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Let's assume that all 700 affected Aircraft were flying with Navworx ADSB out and within their hockey puck of coverage each one was also allowing three other aircraft with just an ADSB IN receiver to receive traffic information...... The FAA changing everything around affects many more than just 700 Navworx customers. It would be 700+2100 for a total of 2900 airplanes not getting the full picture thanks to the FAA! One source I saw states there are anywhere from 9 to 12,000 airplanes airborne in the United States at peak times. So you can see that hypothetically it would affect 25 to 30% of all flying aircraft! The FAA isn't interested in our safety at all. This is the best example ever of you can't fight City Hall. If I ever have a mid air because of this I hope it's with an airplane carrying one of these jacka...sses!
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Last edited by Paul 5r4 : 12-18-2016 at 11:38 PM.
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  #152  
Old 12-19-2016, 06:47 AM
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GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
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Location: KSGJ / TJBQ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agirard7a View Post
Before someone gets killed relying on incomplete miss information.
FWIW: It is impossible for any system (ADS-B included) to provide complete information at all times. As a pilot, if you have ADS-B use it to augment the information already provided by existing systems like flight following and most important of all EYES OUT THE WINDOW. Otherwise, you are just fooling yourself.

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Last edited by GalinHdz : 12-19-2016 at 08:53 AM.
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  #153  
Old 12-19-2016, 09:38 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Location: 57AZ - NW Tucson area
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalinHdz View Post
FWIW: It is impossible for any system (ADS-B included) to provide complete information at all times. As a pilot, if you have ADS-B use it to augment the information already provided by existing systems like flight following and most important of all EYES OUT THE WINDOW. Otherwise, you are just fooling yourself.

Is Flight Following any better?

Don't the controllers see the same data that is presented by the ADSB display, but now with a human time lag in the loop?
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  #154  
Old 12-19-2016, 10:11 AM
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Jesse Jesse is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: X35 - Ocala, FL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GalinHdz View Post
FWIW: It is impossible for any system (ADS-B included) to provide complete information at all times. As a pilot, if you have ADS-B use it to augment the information already provided by existing systems like flight following and most important of all EYES OUT THE WINDOW. Otherwise, you are just fooling yourself.

While I do agree with this, if you take it to the extreme you might as well leave traffic out of the screen altogether. Traffic helps sometimes on cross-country trips when talking to ATC, but it helps more so when not talking to anyone, and helps even the most in the traffic pattern. Sometimes people will call their downwind on a certain runway, but be on downwind for a different runway. The traffic display helps you know where to look. Other people are either instructing or just being dopey and flying the pattern without talking. This helps you know that they are there. Yeah, midairs don't happen when the planes are a mile or two apart, but knowing there is a plane a mile or two away can help you see them earlier, know where to look for them and avoid getting close enough to become a problem. Even two miles or less away, in the traffic pattern, it can be hard to see a plane even if they are calling their position. Seeing them on the display makes it much easier because you know exactly where to look.
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  #155  
Old 12-19-2016, 10:44 AM
DennisRhodes DennisRhodes is offline
 
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Location: Taylorsville, Ga
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Should be interesting to see how this AD is finally settled. Appears there are still rules out there that are not clear and are subject to interpretation ( by the FAA and lawyers) and maybe rules that are being altered along the way. With this ongoing, I don't see how anyone could afford to build a product that would be considered to be compliant for the long run. Maybe it is now but give them 6 weeks.
I guess the one thing that stands out for me in all of this is, how can the FAA as a public federal organization with safety at its core withold safety info ie TIF-B to some users and provide that to others. Aren't we all a part of the system?
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  #156  
Old 12-19-2016, 11:09 AM
JBPILOT JBPILOT is offline
 
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Location: Jesup, Iowa
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Default My ADS-B experience - -



This was leaving a Flyin this summer. I for one very much appreciate what info is available. I could pretty much know where everyone was while listening to the tower. This was a screenshot from a 10" IPad Pro. If you haven't experienced this much info, you likely don't understand how much info is available.
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  #157  
Old 12-19-2016, 12:02 PM
DennisRhodes DennisRhodes is offline
 
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Location: Taylorsville, Ga
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Looks a lot like an ifly screen. Have one. What ADSB receiver or transciever are you using?
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  #158  
Old 12-19-2016, 02:03 PM
Paul 5r4 Paul 5r4 is offline
 
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Location: Foley, Al
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Looks like ifly software loaded onto an iPad. There "multiplatform" package for $20. Besides my ifly 720, I use it on two other devices. At one time I was using wing x and ifly.... that got confusing when I wanted to do something. When Ifly came out with the multi-platform option, I jumped on it and have never looked back. Love it! And now back to your regularly scheduled program.....

Like I've already mentioned in a previous post, if I ever have a mid air because of the FAA's screwing around with the ADSB outputs and navworx, I hope the other aircraft has one of the decision makers aboard behind all this. Irony.
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  #159  
Old 12-19-2016, 05:34 PM
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GalinHdz GalinHdz is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by az_gila View Post
Is Flight Following any better?
Not really. TIS-B is basically just a FF display in the cockpit that will show traffic the controller has not called out to you because he might not be paying attention to it at that moment. So if it isn't on the controller's display, it won't be on your display either. That is why we need to use ADS-B to AUGMENT our traffic situation awareness not as a system to be blindly relied upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse View Post
While I do agree with this, if you take it to the extreme you might as well leave traffic out of the screen altogether. Traffic helps sometimes on cross-country trips when talking to ATC, but it helps more so when not talking to anyone, and helps even the most in the traffic pattern. Sometimes people will call their downwind on a certain runway, but be on downwind for a different runway. The traffic display helps you know where to look. Other people are either instructing or just being dopey and flying the pattern without talking. This helps you know that they are there. Yeah, midairs don't happen when the planes are a mile or two apart, but knowing there is a plane a mile or two away can help you see them earlier, know where to look for them and avoid getting close enough to become a problem. Even two miles or less away, in the traffic pattern, it can be hard to see a plane even if they are calling their position. Seeing them on the display makes it much easier because you know exactly where to look.
I also agree with you, but again "we need to use ADS-B to AUGMENT our traffic situation awareness not as a system to be blindly relied upon" which is my point. ADS-B is another tool for us to use, not a fix-all.

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Last edited by GalinHdz : 12-19-2016 at 05:39 PM.
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  #160  
Old 12-19-2016, 06:24 PM
maus92 maus92 is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Annapolis MD
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The statement from NavWorx needs editing for clarity, but when the owner makes this type of declaration "We can only conclude that the FAA is deliberately sabotaging our business.," combined with the refusal to allow FAA inspectors access to their production facility / records, my spidey sense goes off. I'm not convinced we're getting the entire story. Let's hope that the FAA will clarify its position, so the APOA / EAA - or the courts - can get to the bottom of the issue.

When I was installing my G3X system, I had to change my system design to include a "certified" (GPS20A when it became available) earlier than anticipated to meet the FAAs change in traffic transmission policy. I had originally designed my ADS-B In/Out system to use the G3X's internal WAAS GPS to provide position data until the final 2020 specs were implemented. But faced with the potential of not having a complete and comprehensive traffic picture (as complete as ADS-B traffic can be,) I had to spend more money earlier. I'm happy with my decision.
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