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Picture and a tale regarding ADS-B

ChiefPilot

Well Known Member
Couldn't decide if the general area or pictures area was better, but decided in the general area due to the ADS-B aspect...

Anyway, a month or two ago on a return from a trip west, ATC put us in a nice bank right over the top of MSP at about 14,000 and I thought "If Pete Howell were here, he'd take a picture!". Unfortunately, taking pictures from the cockpit of an airliner are frowned upon by many and so it was instead stored away as an idea for later.

Last week the weather was amazing, and so I thought I'd go take that picture in my RV. Not wanting to deal with all the usual stuff around a class B airport, I figured out a route that'd keep me out of the way of the airline traffic and motored up to 12,500' - well above the 10,000' top of the MSP class B. My plan was to loop around KMSP once taking a bunch of pictures to sort out what I wanted later. Since it can be a busy airspace, aside from the ADS-B traffic displays I had departure and approach on the main and standby frequencies (I can listen to both at the same time) on com1 plus guard on com2.

Imagine my surprise when I hear "N164BL, Minneapolis Depature". Completely unsolicited. I never called them, nor was I ever required to talk to them as I never encroached on any airspace that required two way radio comms. Obviously, ATC had my N-number via ADS-B and I had no reason to not talk to them, so I answered. I had recognized the controller's voice and I think she recognized mine - it was a pretty friendly exchange and she was just curious what I was doing. It also helped, I think, when I explained that I was aware of and remaining clear of the WLSTN departure along with the BAINY, KILLR, and MUSCL arrivals.

They offered flight following for the return to KSGS; I accepted, and that was that. Pretty uneventful otherwise. But remember kids - the 'S' in 'ADS-B' stands for 'surveillance' :)

50821453707_93e5416770_b.jpg
 
Yes indeed, ATC can see us now, which can either be scary or helpful... not sure which way I lean just yet. Mostly helpful I guess.

I had a similar ATC interaction a month or two ago arriving back into home base at Houston Hooks airport, which is crazy busy with 4 flight schools plus corporate and the usual GA traffic; I was 8 miles out inbound and the radio chatter was nonstop, so I was waiting for a break so I could call tower. Yep, I was surprised when tower called ME in the blind, "N8YV, are you on?" Uhh, yes please, may I sneak in and land? It worked out pretty well.
 
Not if you have UAT "out" ADS-B with anonymous mode enabled. The internal randomization of your ICAO code makes it impossible for anybody, including ATC to read your N-number. There are other ways they can track you and find you if needed but why not enjoy the value of participating in the system all the while maintaining your privacy? The fancy 1090ES transponders do not support anonymous mode.
 
Maybe I am a bit naive here but I don't see the problem with ATC or anyone on flight tracker software knowing my N number and seeing where I am. I certainly don't want big brother tracking my phone but they do, or looking at me through my desktops's little internally mounted camera which is covered. Now if I had robbed a bank and was using the RV in the getaway to get far far away, that might be a different story.

The OP was interesting!
 
Now if I had robbed a bank and was using the RV in the getaway to get far far away, that might be a different story.

All the more reason you shouldn't be allowed to opt out of it. If you're not doing anything unlawful, nobody has the time to waste on tracking you anyway. If you are, the easier you can be found the better.

I hope anyone flying around on a 1200 code and thinking they're untrackable has their cell phone turned off as well. And their smartwatch. And their passenger's phone...
 
Maybe I am a bit naive here but I don't see the problem with ATC or anyone on flight tracker software knowing my N number and seeing where I am. I certainly don't want big brother tracking my phone but they do, or looking at me through my desktops's little internally mounted camera which is covered. Now if I had robbed a bank and was using the RV in the getaway to get far far away, that might be a different story.

The OP was interesting!

A total surveillance state is easily misused. People being people, it is just a matter of time as to how it will manifest.

Super Photo Brad thanks! Yeah . . uuhhh . . . I am just taking some pictures . . ..
 
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Interesting. I have many times flown over controlled airspace and though I should check in. Just in case they need me out of the way but the couple of times I have, they seem annoyed I was wasting their time calling. So I quit calling.
 
ATC actually saved my bud with ADS-B.

I was flying cross country without flight following minding my own business but monitoring 121.5 as I always do when not talking to anybody. I was getting within 2 miles or so of a restricted area and suddenly heard my call sign on 121.5. Took me a second to realize they were calling me and answered. Controller was just checking in to see if I was aware that the restricted area in front of me was active and I was getting close. Now unfortunately I wasn’t aware that it was active (should have been of course...). So I thanked him and turned. Airspace violation avoided .... .

There are some nice people out there!

I do worry about the privacy part though (I am the only one flying my plane so if you want to know where I was over the last couple of years you can easily find out). Unfortunately that is just another bit of data data aggregators are capturing about me but in balance I think its worth it... .

Oliver
 
Your old (non-ADSB) transponder reveals your identity as well. I have had departure call me by N number to see if I was on frequency and aware of departing traffic.
 
Your old (non-ADSB) transponder reveals your identity as well. I have had departure call me by N number to see if I was on frequency and aware of departing traffic.

If you mean by "old" non-ADS-B transponder = Mode S transponder, then sure. Mode S is always gives out your N number. Always has. Even if squawking VFR. Legacy Mode C does not ever give out your N number. It's not even possible for Mode C to do that. Now, if you are squawking an issued discreet code (i.e. not squawking VFR) then ATC knows you from that code, which has been the whole point of radar surveillance and transponder discreet codes since the 1960's. But if you have a Mode C transponder and were squawking VFR without establishing radio communication with ATC then ATC got your identity some other way, but not through your transponder or radar reflection.
 
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The information is given out way too readily

I am all for the FAA and air traffic control knowing my N number and where I am. The part that bugs me is that every small detail of your flight is know to every individual on the planet with apps installed such as Flight Aware. Friends of mine will call me and say, how was your flight today? Friendly enough, but if the app notifies them when I move the aircraft, others with nefarious intentions will too. Great time to rob this guys house, we know that he is not home. How would the general public feel if there was a GPS tracker on their car or boat and its position constantly given to the world? They would be up in arms. Currently, that requires a warrant. Why should we be any different? Why can't the information be kept to use by the agencies to benefit the safety of the skies, and keep our privacy to some extents?
 
Why can't the information be kept to use by the agencies to benefit the safety of the skies, and keep our privacy to some extents?
Because the complexity of a system necessary to provide the equivalent level of tracking and monitoring that ADS-B does, and keep that information private to ATC, would drive the cost into the range of unreasonability.
 
Because the complexity of a system necessary to provide the equivalent level of tracking and monitoring that ADS-B does, and keep that information private to ATC, would drive the cost into the range of unreasonability.

actually, it's not complex at all. The FAA just needs to stop making aircraft registration details available to the public. To my knowledge, it is the only vehilcle registration information that is publicly available. Try finding owner information based upon an auto license plate number or serial number. Yes, it is available to various civil organizations and therefore open to some abuse, but you can't just look it up on the internet.
 
Because the complexity of a system necessary to provide the equivalent level of tracking and monitoring that ADS-B does, and keep that information private to ATC, would drive the cost into the range of unreasonability.

I simple click of an opt-out selection. Not that complex. Heard through the grapevine that certain individuals have the ability to keep their flights private. Might just be a conspiracy theory. ;)
 
The opt-out you mention is simply for public systems but does not apply to private tracking companies like FlightAware, other private sites or individuals with ground receivers. Your airplane is talking directly to their receivers with your N Number so that's what they get. If you are 1090ES the FAA has started a program where you can use "call signs" instead of N-Numbers but in order to do that you have to sign up with a subscription to a third-party service provider that charges big bucks. So that will only be a practical option for multi-millionaire business jets or charter companies. If you go UAT with Mode C then full anonymity is free when squawking VFR but that goes away when you squawk a discreet code.
 
I simple click of an opt-out selection. Not that complex. Heard through the grapevine that certain individuals have the ability to keep their flights private. Might just be a conspiracy theory. ;)
How's that working out for you? (Recent flight of N219PB)

"Opt out" doesn't do much when you transmit your position on 1090 MHz for anyone to see.
 
I simple click of an opt-out selection. Not that complex.
Actually, it is. The system necessary to let you click an opt-out selection doesn't exist, and would need to be developed. It's debatable whether the ADS-B hardware that everyone was convinced to install over the last few years could even provide such an anonymized level of service, allow ATC to identify you, and block all others from seeing your identity.
 
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