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Instrument Panel Plan

J Twilbeck

Well Known Member
I found myself constantly wondering what to do about the instrument panel and all the avionics. The question constantly popped into my head and it was followed with more questions. Do I just build the upper forward fuselage section and worry about all the avionics later? Will it all fit? Do I want to buy or build a center console? Stock panel or expensive aftermarket panel? Layout? Install now or wait? etc...etc... So I decided to model the entire system to allow me to formulate a plan and resolve a lot of the questions and concerns I had.

So here is my plan...
Final+Render+2.JPG

This is the 3D model I created to show the aircraft structure and how I want to integrate my avionics; a Dynon Skyview system with a Vertical Power ECB and a Garmin GTN 635. I will be using Van's instrument panel and new fuel selector. I will be making the center console, side console closeout panel, and fuel valve enclosure. The center console mounts an iPad mini that is removable, and when removed reveals a small storage compartment for sunglasses etc. The instruments and avionics are shown below.

Overview+Plan.JPG

This is a diagram showing all the avionics, instruments, and antennas required for the aircraft. This does not include: switches, probes, lights, or sensors.

Overview+Plan+2.JPG

This is a diagram showing the location of each component along with other view orientations.
Note:
- There are mount angles attached to the ribs directly aft of the firewall. These angles are there to install the panels shown. The panels stand off the firewall 1.0in (no new holes in the firewall) and will be lined on the forward side with sound proofing. The other advantage to having the removable panels in this area is the avionics can be mounted to the panel, outside the aircraft, and then the panel screwed into place.
- The VP-X will be mounted on a plate that spans the instrument panel lower angle and sub panel lip. This allows easy access to the component for the large quantity of wiring that will be going to it.
- The ribs do not need to be modified. Only the subpanel will need to be modified to allow the GTN 635 installation.
- The Transceiver and Transponder are mounted directly to the existing tunnel cover side by side.
- The new center console will be made from fiberglass and can be relatively thin since the only thing that is installing to it is the iPad mini.

This is the plan for now...subsequent to change at any time : )
Any insight, comments, concerns, etc are welcome.
 
Very nice

This looks very nice. Do you plan any independent backup instruments?

Can I ask what software you used and would you be willing to share your design files as a starting point for me to use on my own panel design?
 
Cut out pieces of paper images to scale, scotch tape them to the real panel, put a seat cushion in the plane at the proper position, and see if you are happy with the "feel". e.g., Is it too long a reach to the GTN knobs? Does your arm block a critical view when you turn the knob? Another example, this is how I found out I wanted my efis lower (I wear bifocals).

Stein recently pointed out that the cost difference between the 635 and 650 can be very little, if you catch a rebate at the right time. There are still times when only an ILS will do...

For IFR, some prefer a completely stand alone backup for flight instruments, to preclude a software bug from taking out an entire interconnected system.

Unless you are young and tireless, I would include an autopilot. Maybe you just didn't list the servos.
 
How many ADAHRS are you planning on? You can put in a Dynon D6 as a backup attitude, airspeed and altitude all in one small package. It also has a separate ADAHRS so that if your Skyviews go Tango Uniform, you'll have a completely separate system (software and ADAHRS) in the D6. This is what I did in my panel. It's cheap life insurance!
 
One more thing. It seems like a long reach to your nav/com stack. Good advice in a previous post to make sure you're okay with the position before you cut any holes in the panel. Consider ergonomics like leaning against shoulder straps to reach the knobs, flying with your left hand, and how often you're going to be reaching over there for freq changes, etc.
 
Thanks for the comments and please keep them coming. Feedback is valuable.

To answer a few questions:
I used SolidWorks to model everything. The model consists of about 70 separate components and is about 18mb in size. jwilbur PM me if interested in a few components in particular.

I plan on printing the hole thing to scale on our plotter and hanging it in the aircraft, followed by engine noises and pretend dog fights, to get a good feel for it all.

Thanks for the feedback Bob, you always have good replies for people. I lingered for a long time on whether I should install a system and antenna for ILS approaches or just go full GPS/WAAS. I settled on just the GPS because I really prefer GPS approaches over ILS and almost every time you can descend just as low. Also almost every airport has a GPS approach and the ILS approaches are few and dying out. (also, I didn't list, but will have, the fully coupled autopilot from Dynon as well)

After installing dual Dynon screens with dual adahrs and dual backup batteries and a GTN Nav box I decided I didn't need a backup for my backups....but I will look into the D6. I would really like to hear more about how you guys decided on additional backups and why you wanted them. I consider this system redundant but maybe I am missing something.

Thanks All!
 
I know this is for a -10 but how much of that center console has to come out for your condition inspection?

Also, the Dynon EMS module has connectors on both side, it has the footprint of a dinner plate.
 
The reason I decided on a D6 backup is that when Skyview software glitches, you can potentially lose both screens at the same time. I didn't believe it until I spent some time reading the support forums on their website. It has happened before, and so I suppose it could happen again. Don't get me wrong--I absolutely love my Skyviews. But if you get the "blue screen of death" (or whatever the equivalent is for the Skyview computer screens), then you're going to need to do a power cycle and pray that they come back up. Not an ideal situation if you're in the weather. So I wanted to get a completely separate system--software and ADAHRS--to get help me keep the rubber side down while I troubleshoot the Skyviews if it ever becomes necessary.

By the way, I can't claim to be the smart guy to think of all this. Stein gave me the idea (thanks!)
 
Nice job so far. However there are a couple things that catch my eye...

One thing that catches my eye right away is the location of the radio stack. It's pretty much over in front of the co-pilot (that right rib is about 24" right of pilot center, and is pretty close to centered on the co-pilot). Slightly offset is never an issue, but being that far over is a good ways from a comfortably usable position. It's a long way to read things, a long way to modify IFR fligthplans in the GPS, etc..

Next, I'd strongly suggest shying away from mounting any boxes on the firewall that you can put on the panel side of the sub-panel or on a shelf between the two. You can easily access stuff on the sub panel, but getting to stuff mounted on the firewall after the plane is done is more than a royal pain...I can guarantee you it will be, even with your mounting panels. For example, you still have to get the d-subs connected, screws tightened, etc.. All in poor light with pretty much one hand (or added clumsy use of the 2nd). Putting them on the sub panel means you simply remove one of those big honkin Dynon screens, reach through the now gaping hole with one or both hands while simply sitting in the seat. I can't stress enough how much easier this solution is over trying to crawl down under the panel. If it were me, I'd put everything in front of the Dynon screens, so that when me went to work on it I wouldn't be cussing at the builder! :)

Lastly and as others have mentioned (and I'll be my usual blunt self here), the GTN-635 is just a poor use of money in my opinion - especially when you can often get the 650 for the same price. Sure you may not think you'll "use" the ILS, but ILS aside out here in the boonies on the prairie, it's not uncommon for AWOS/HIWOS to be on a VOR freq, or at remote airports receiving transmissions for opening/closing a flightplan is on a VOR freq. Also, if you ever go to sell the plane I can guarantee someone will wonder "why the heck did he not just get the better box" and scratch their heads. Heck, even if you don't sell the plane people will still wonder! :)

I think you are off to a good start, I'd also just do a flat sheet panel and toss the stock Van's panel which will give you more vertical room to play with in the panel without costing much money at all.

Those are my quick 2 cents as usual!

Cheers,
Stein

Oh, and PS...what others have said. Get a backup (like a D1, D2, D6, D10) that isn't the same main box/software for reliability. Multiple ADAHRS on the same networks with the same software is excellent for redundancy, not so much for emergency reliability. Couple examples why: If you dual ADAHRS system shows a mismatch and you're in the clouds, each screen can display what each box is showing. If one is leaning right and one is leaning left, which is correct? You need a tie breaker. Also, it hasn't been that many years ago that an EFIS vendor had a short term bug that they quickly fixed where if you pressed the wrong button keys in the wrong order, the entire system would lock up (and need rebooted) no matter now many screens or ADAHRS you had.
 
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Let me add, that if you don't want to hang more external antennas, an Archer wingtip antenna works fine in a ten's big tips for localizer/GS, and is more than adequate for a backup VOR. Also a few dollars cheaper.
Just to show it can happen, my last ifr student's cross country took place in perfect training weather - IMC the whole time but well above freezing. We planned the LPV at Chico (minimums 300 and 1) but by the time we got there the ceiling had dropped to near 200. The ILS got us in when the LPV wouldn't. Also, don't discount the chance that interference of some sort might render all on board GPS radios useless.
One more thing about the GTN location: get a hold of an installation manual. There are requirements (part of the TSO so it matters) on how far away from the pilot's centerline of vision the box may be. If you are out of these limits you need annunciator lights.
 
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Someone will wonder "why the heck did he not just get the better box" and scratch their heads. Heck, even if you don't sell the plane people will still wonder! :)

Disclosure: I bought a 420W + SL30 (from Stein!) knowing full well it would cost $1K + more than a 430W + SL40. Reason: I did not want all my nav eggs in one basket. Just in case you were wondering!
 
Justin,

Very nice panel! The removable iPad with storage space is a nice feature I haven't seen before.

These are a few comments from my viewpoint:

Its nice to see you included the new SkyView COM radio. It took us a little while to start shipping them, but the radios have excellent specs and performance in the field. You will love the database driven button-touch tuning.

Dynon will gladly sell you a D6; many customers want one as a backup and it does offer independent software and battery backup separate from any other PFD it is added to. A dual SkyView is designed for IFR redundancy and is more reliability that most GA avionics systems flying, but the D6 by definition adds even more redundancy at a fairly low price.

That being said, I personally fly behind a redundant two ADAHRS SkyView without a D6. The redundancy design goal of SkyView is that no single point failure reduces flight functionality. For example, loss of a data line (short or open) just transfers data to the second line. You do receive a warning so that you know to fix the failed data line. Even the loss of a display automatically transfers all control to the second display for continued flight information and autopilot functionality.

SkyView software has an excellent history in regards to the extreme rarity of even single-display in-flight glitches. Some units had a component hardware failure which we replaced through a service bulletin, but that has not caused any two screen failures. We are very open in our forums to the entire community and do not hold any information back. If you ever have a question about a failure discussion on our forum, please ask us for any clarification on the end results and causes.

As you are planning the location of the various SkyView components, do you know we have dimensional drawings for everything? You can find them at http://dynonavionics.com/docs/SkyView_design_info.html

Please let us know if you have any specific questions.

-Robert
Dynon Avionics
 
I'm toying with Solidworks as I contemplate a panel re-do as well, so I appreciate the amount of work that's gone into that model... :)

I second other people's comments on the asymmetry of the layout. Personally, I plan for the radio stack to be centered, so either seat can access it... Then I can place one screen on either side. I've seen many panels with dual screens on the pilot's side, and radios way off in the boonies in front of the passenger. My radio is currently just right of center, and I find it slightly (not much, just a bit) awkward to use in that location.

I'll PM my email address, i'd be interested in the model files if you'd like to share.
 
Fuel Valve

Hi Justin,

Thanks for submitting this, your setup is exactly how I would like things.

Can I ask two things 1 how you have attached the ipad did you use an aftermarket bracket.

and 2 you mention a new Fuel valve from Vans can I ask what part number that is?

Best Rgs

Chad Boot
 
One thing I might add. I concur with Stein's comments regarding access to equipment located in the firewall bay of the sub-panel. You need to be a contortionist to get up there. Mount as much as you can on the sub-panel immediately behind the main panel. Also, we have a 3 screen G3X system, and we purposely installed a display directly in front of the co-pilot. This was done because my wife and father are both pilots and we wanted to ability to share the flying on long trips.
The field of view requirement that Bob referred to for IFR installations of the GPS is 12.2 inches from the pilot center line FOV.
 
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Hi Justin,

Thanks for submitting this, your setup is exactly how I would like things.

Can I ask two things 1 how you have attached the ipad did you use an aftermarket bracket.

and 2 you mention a new Fuel valve from Vans can I ask what part number that is?

Best Rgs

Chad Boot

1. I haven't finalized that detail yet. I've seen some brackets out there that may work (https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pspages/airgizmo-ipadmini-dock.php
or I have a design in mind for a really simple bracket that I would build.
2. It's the standard fuel valve that is shipping with the fuselage kits. (Received tail and fuse kit in March 2012...looks like the locking feature started in 2008). I didn't upgrade anything. It is no longer the cheasy looking "hose spigot" it was before. This is machined aluminum and must be lifted to turn and switch tanks. I plan on anodizing or powder coating it red and will be perfectly happy with the standard valve. The plans say the PN is VA-178B.
 
The field of view requirement that Bob referred to for IFR installations of the GPS is 12.2 inches from the pilot center line FOV.

My model shows 19.1" pilot center to GPS center or 15.9" pilot center to GPS inboard edge. So it looks like some rearranging is in order. While I'm at it I'll move all the components on or forward of the sub-panel.

Thanks for the input guys! Keep it coming.
 
Justin, if you center a skyviews on the pilot side and co pilot side with the gps and radios in the middle you should be able to fix the issue. I just sold my 7 which had a set up similar to yours however only an iPad instead of the GPS. I found myself using only the skyviews in front of me and the iPad, the 2nd skyviews was primarily to show the large engine page and for the copilot to see what's going on. Lots of people do t like the iPad in the cockpit. I for one loved foreflight and will never build an airplane without it. In flight I would use foreflight to find the info then plug it into the skyviews. To make a long story short, 2 screens and an iPad are great, however I found myself primarily using just one screen and the iPad/gps, move the second screen over and give the copilot something to look at:)
 
Excellent job on the Solidworks model!

Your panel is very similar to my original RV-10 panel. I ended up moving the radio stack closer to the pilot and placing a smaller MFD on top of the GTN-650. Have you thought about using a 7" Skyview on top of the GTN650 and then moving the second 10" display in front of the Copilot?

Current panel:
10178555215_70db8581c7_b.jpg


I am getting ready to replace the panel mounted audio panel with the remote mounted PS Engineering PAC15 to clean up the panel even more. I am also going to replace the SL30 with the new Dynon radio.

Let me know if you ever come out to visit Van's and I will take you flying in the RV-10.

Rob Hickman
N402RH RV-10
Advanced Flight Systems
 
I am getting ready to replace the panel mounted audio panel with the remote mounted PS Engineering PAC15 to clean up the panel even more. I am also going to replace the SL30 with the new Dynon radio.

Thanks Rob! That looks really nice.

I'm interested in this remote mounted PAC15 you mentioned. I went to PS Engineering website and couldn't find it. Can you direct me to any info on this?

Later found more info. It's sold by GRT. Will/how does this integrate into the Dynon System?
 
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ADBS

Minor point, but the Dynon ADSB box doesn't need any adjustments, service or frequent access.

If you have a rear ADBS antenna you could mount the box somewhere in the area of the rear seats or even further back. This will free a bit of space from behind the panel.

It's easier to send a 4 x #22 wire bundle back there than a stiffer RG400 cable.
 
Thanks Rob! That looks really nice.

I'm interested in this remote mounted PAC15 you mentioned. I went to PS Engineering website and couldn't find it. Can you direct me to any info on this?

Will/how does this integrate into the Dynon System?

Here is the link to the PAC15 Manual:
http://www.advanced-flight-systems.com/Support/AF-5600/PAC15EX_IM.pdf

We have implemented a really intuitive interface for the audio panel using the touch screen on the AF-5000 EFIS. We currently sell the PAC15 for the AF-5000 system. You can also play video's on the AF-5000 EFIS screen from your IPad.

10349470086_62fbac4d64_b.jpg


Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems
N402RH RV-10
 
Have you run this past your wife?

Justin,

My wife, who is not yet a pilot, has already informed me that whatever I have in front of me, she wants in front of her. From my days in the T-37, I can tell you trying to fly on the gauges cross-cockpit in the goo is a royal pain.

Though I'm still years away from having to make the decision, I'm leaning toward the 3-screen G3X set-up so we both have PFDs and the third can have map+engine instruments and be a back-up if one of the PFD screens decides to go TU.

Just my 2 pesos. (Remember--you get what you pay for :D)

Jeff
 
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From my days in the T-38, I learned that it's nice sitting on the centerline and having everything in front of me! :D
 
Justin,

Excellent planning approach to the panel/wiring installation. This kind of advance planning will pay off in many saved hours fitting and thinking. I did my behind the panel work with the idea of how it was going to be removed. I have a 7 tipper, but since the area under the tip up can get wet, I moved many things forward. Everything (I think) can be reached from the front or below with one screwdriver in hand. Plate-nuts abound. The beauty of your design process is you can now plan the wiring runs. That will make the process much quicker. Too bad I dont have your CAD skills.

Consider adding some structure to allow mounting the boxes more compactly, like books on a shelf. Then Stein can reach them.

Also think about how you will reach in there to buck the rivets.

Again, great process.
 
My experience says exactly what Stein said. Radio stack between the screens, add the Nav, stay out of the area forward if the sub panel. I've spent way too much time up under the panel with one hand and sweat in my eyes.
 
Panel Plan Rev 2

I updated the plan. Rearranged the avionics behind the panel, added an independent mini efis, and changed to the Garmin 650.
Update+Render+Cropped.JPG

I swapped the location of the MFD and Garmin box, which has now changed to the GTN 650 to include ILS and VOR capabilities. I also added the AvMap mini efis/adahrs, it's a standalone system completely independent of the Dynon Skyview and has it's own Pitot/Static input for airspeed and altitude readouts. I also added a second iPad mini for passenger (wife) entertainment. Behind the panel mounted iPad will be a small "glove box" storage compartment. The iPad mounted to the center console will be running Foreflight.

Update+Overview+2.JPG

This is a diagram showing all the avionics, instruments, and antennas required for the aircraft. This does not include: switches, probes, lights, or sensors. Note changes: Garmin 650 instead of 635 and added the Mini Efis.

Update+Overview+1.JPG

This is a diagram showing the location of each component along with other view orientations.
Note:
- All of the components have been moved onto or aft of the subpanel.
- The VP-X will be mounted on a plate that spans the instrument panel lower angle and sub panel lip. This allows easy access to the component for the large quantity of wiring that will be going to it.
- The ribs do not need to be modified. Only the subpanel will need to be modified to allow the GTN 650 installation.
- The Transceiver and Transponder are mounted directly to the existing tunnel cover side by side.
- The new center console will be made from fiberglass and can be relatively thin since the only thing that is installing to it is the iPad mini.

This is the plan for now...and is still subsequent to change at any time : )
Thanks everyone for your input! Let me hear what you think of the update.
 
Now that Panel I really like! Not much to change anymore, except if at all possible you will benefit from having the GTN a bit higher up in the stack (as high as possible). I know you are being wary of that center rib tough (there are workarounds).

The only other thing I'd do is swap your D1 and the Dynon Comm radio. The comm is something you're likely going to use on every flight, multiple times per flight, so having part of it hid behind the bezel on the right side of the backup EFIS would be eliminated by having them swapped (and access/viewing would be better a well). That falls in line with keeping the stuff you use most often as handy as possible, while still keeping a pleasing form. Typically we try to design for the 99th percentile, while keeping an eye on the 1th percentile - all while trying to balance form and function.

Cheers,
Stein
 
You may want to change the default location of the firewall punch through for the control cables, depending on the height of the two boxes mounted on the tunnel. You may have enough clearance currently. My memory doesn't recall the exact location, but best to check now before drilling any holes in the stainless.
 
Bob,
I should have clearance, all the models are built to scale and the holes are about halfway up the firewall recess. It's hard to see in the pics, but on my model it shows plenty of room about 2.5" of clearance. But excellent forward thinking. Exactly the insight I'm looking for.
 
I rearranged the GTN and mini EFIS. I included a close out panel to lay over the instrument panel, this will hide all the screws and how the instrument panel lays over the lower rail. I also added a little design, for fun. I think it's gonna look really nice.
Render+with+Colors.JPG
 
I like that layout a lot. I think you will be very happy with it. The Dynons and the iPad are great to fly behind.
 
Looking good! If you want to hide the screws, just get rid of them...that's what we do on 90+% of the RV10 panels we build. We just start over with a new flat sheet. Several benefits...first you hide the screws, 2nd is the fact that you get a bunch more room to use from the now removed nutplates, screws and overlapping metal. Lastly, it allows you to shape and size the panel however you want (metal, carbon, glass or a mixture).

Cheers,
Stein
 
Stein,

How do you attach the panel without screws? I'm not doubting, just curious because I like the idea.
 
Instead of using the angles on the side of the "switch strip" , just make two of your own from something like 3/4"x3/4" angle. Rivet it to the fuse like normal, then just bolt/screw the panel to the angles. Structure is put back, but it's still removeable if need be. The other solution is to just whack off the ends of the switch strip and re-use them as attach points. Hope that makes sense....

P.S. we usually bump up the thickness to .080 as well, and also make a bigger bend on the bottom which results in a deeper bottom flange for assisting with wire bundle routing and also hidden mounting of things like USB's, 12VDC's, jacks, ets...

Cheers,
Stein
 
Ok. I've done that on most of my panels. Do you still screw on the top perimeter or have you figured a way around that?
 
SteinAir talks about a 'switch strip'. What is that.
Also I am new to glass panels. Why the Garmin GPS along with the two Dynon displays. Does the GArmin feed data to the displays? For some reason I thought the two Dynon displays were built with GPS. Please forgive my naivety.
 
Also I am new to glass panels. Why the Garmin GPS along with the two Dynon displays. Does the GArmin feed data to the displays? For some reason I thought the two Dynon displays were built with GPS. Please forgive my naivety.

Yes, the Garmin will feed gps data to the Dynon. The only reason to put in a much more expensive Garmin, instead of the Dynon, gps, is if you intend to fly IFR. The Dynon gps units are not TSO'd for ifr, the Garmin is.

Edit. Many panels have a row of switches along the bottom edge, a 'switch strip'.
 
635 vs 650

Justin: Another 2c re the price difference. Until December 6, Garmin has a $500 rebate on the GTN650 (more on the 750).
 
Dennis,
The switch strip is the angle provided with the kit that attaches to the bottom of the panel and to the sides of the fuse. Usually the switches are located on that piece.
 
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