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AC 90-109 / Transitional Training

WingedFrog

Well Known Member
The FAA just released Advisory Circular AC 90-109:Airmen Transition to Experimental or Unfamiliar Airplanes
http://www.faa.gov/regulations_poli...fm/go/document.information/documentID/1018499
From a quick survey, I conclude that the only way I can get training for the RV-12 is to find a Flight School that has a trainer with similar performances as the RV-12. For those who have experience in flying the RV-12 what plane in your opinion meets these conditions and is an S-LSA used by flight schools?

NB: I am talking training for low flight time pilots here.
 
I for one find it awfully ironic (and two-faced) that the FAA tells us to get training in the same type of aircraft we're building, yet makes it nearly impossible for instructors to obtain LODAs to actually PROVIDE the training they say is so important.

Choose one or the other, FAA.
 
Dead on! This is really hypocritical!

I learned in an E-AB RANS S-12S and after I got my license my instructor got almost pushed out of business as he focuses on high-drag LSAs and there was (and still is) nothing available as an SLSA he wanted to teach in and the exemption period expired. LODA refused, petitioned the FAA, no response. After a year of waiting he settled on a Eurofox SLSA and offers transition assistance for the S-12s but overall it'd be better if he could train in them but that's illegal.
 
I just spoke with the FAA today...

...and they are well aware of the recent report and also how they drag their feet issuing LODA's. He promised to get back with me today for my -10 LODA.

Between EAA and others, we're slowly making progress,
 
Transition to -12

I have been doing my sport pilot training in the Gobosh 700. I flew the -12 with Mitch for a demo flight and feel that it flies very similar to the Gobosh. I think it provides a very close approximation to the handling characteristics and flight controls response very similar to the -12. The notable pitch caused by the drop of the flaperons prior to landing was really the only noticeable change to the feeling I got between the two.

Carl
 
Although I haven't flown one, a guy on the field had a Sportstar that is an LSA the flight schools use. Looks very similar to an RV12. I would think any low wing with a Rotax would do. I would think a Cherokee would work, too.

I am not a low time pilot, so the flying part was not too challenging, but the insurance training part was hard. I just "self trained" for the 7 hours.
 
Maintenance and Inspection is also an important aspect of the safety equation. When I brought up the fact that I would be working on Experimental Aircraft with my FSDO recently (I'm still in the process of certifiying my "Repair Station") the inspector looked at me like I was NUTS and started treating me like I had the plague! The FAA is so out of touch with aviation it makes me sick. The inspector they have assigned to me is neither a pilot or mechanic and has never actually worked in the aviation industry, go figure :confused:
 
Dead on! This is really hypocritical!

I learned in an E-AB RANS S-12S and after I got my license my instructor got almost pushed out of business as he focuses on high-drag LSAs and there was (and still is) nothing available as an SLSA he wanted to teach in and the exemption period expired. LODA refused, petitioned the FAA, no response. After a year of waiting he settled on a Eurofox SLSA and offers transition assistance for the S-12s but overall it'd be better if he could train in them but that's illegal.

The guidance from FAA HQ to FSDO's for issuance of LODA's was released in September or October, after about a year and a half moratorium. I got mine fairly quickly after the guidance was issued, but as Pierre has noted, not all FSDO's are created equal. The process is really pretty simple, but I think one needs to be a squeaky wheel with your FSDO inspector. I hope the issuance of AC 90-109 and EAA support will give some relief to this issue.
 
I would think a Cherokee would work, too.
In comparison, a Cherokee flies like a bus... A good start but won't provide the nibble feel of the 12 or the light feel of the 12s controls. Have 150 Cherokee Hrs. and 130 Mooney Hrs. They were helpful, but it was the 30 Hours in the Skylark LSA that provided the most useful experience before the first flight in our 9. The 6 hours in the Skylark TA with dual Dynons was useful to prepare for our TA dual Dynon 9. After spending 2 hours in the Skylark on a windy, gusty day 2 days before our first flight, our 9s' first flight was a piece of cake, a slice of pie, smooth as silk. That experience of course was aided by a week of pre-flight inspections and a well briefed and experienced ground crew.
 
Even as an experienced CFI with a lot of time in various airplanes I found the RV-12 to be a very different airplane from anything I had previously flown. I had two "demo" rides in the '12, and that convinced me to seek a little more practice in something with a similar design. I have a buddy with a Sting Sport, and he gave me an hour of dual in that, which was very helpful. Visability and "feel" very similar. After that my first flights in my '12 were non-events.

I would caution that a low wing Piper is NOT a good preparation for the RV-12. Completely different perspective, feel, instrumentation, engine, etc. It's just apples and oranges.

The RV-12 is very easy to fly, but it is very different from heavier production airplanes, and I do suggest that, especially for low time pilots, some transition work be done in an RV-12 or a similar design.
 
Guys: The Reno FSDO issued my LODA for an RV-9A in less than a month and the inspector was gone one week of that. I used a syllabus obtained from a member of this forum and condition inspection checklist acquired from the homepage of this forum also. Both the syllabus and checklist was modified for my aircraft. I emailed everything to the FSDO inspector and the only thing they wanted in addition was the serial number of my engine. The process was absolutely painless. The additional insurance is approximately $1000 more than my standard policy for dual only with licensed pilots nose wheel RV transition traning from Falcon. I am now up and running here in Reno. Dan
 
Grumman Yankee??

I flew an AA-1 Yankee for 12 years before buying the RV-12 kit. I wanted something that handled (low stick force and rapid response) like the Yankee and found the RV-12 filled the bill perfectly with the bonus of MUCH shorter takeoff and lainding and better climb rate. I've flown Cessnas from the 140 through the 172 and several low-wing Pipers and NONE of them handle anything like (can you say truck?) the Yankee or -12.
The irony is that you can get instruction from a CFI (if he's getting paid for it) only in the SLSA version of the RV-12. There's ONLY one, so to satisfy your insurance you've got to go to Oregon and schedule a checkout with Mike Seager. I was current in the AA-1 but still found the instruction with Mike to be very worthwhile. Consider a trip to Oregon as part of your kit expense unless you know a CFI who's current in the RV-12.

Wayne 120241 N143WM
 
The irony is that you can get instruction from a CFI (if he's getting paid for it) only in the SLSA version of the RV-12. There's ONLY one, so to satisfy your insurance you've got to go to Oregon and schedule a checkout with Mike Seager. I was current in the AA-1 but still found the instruction with Mike to be very worthwhile. Consider a trip to Oregon as part of your kit expense unless you know a CFI who's current in the RV-12.

Wayne 120241 N143WM

Thank you for the tip, Wayne, I will give it serious consideration. In case I get an experienced pilot to perform the 5 hours test, would it be legal to hire a CFI for training on my own RV-12? I think so but the next question is: Where do I find a CFI current on RV-12? I fear that the only answer might be Mike Seager...
 
Training

All insurance companies don't require make/model. Depends a great deal on what you're coming out of and flying history. If you are coming out of ultralights they will want different training than if you are coming out of a Baron. BOTH require some experience in a different type of aircraft. High performance drivers would do well as an example to fly around in a Champ to get a feel for lower wing loading, considerably less power and a much slower approach. Castering nose wheel experience is something you can learn in taxi practice...not a big deal. I agree that transition training is a must as will all insurance companies. They will not all require that you get it in a 12. If you can get it done with Mike Seger great but its not imperative that you make a special trip to Oregon. Get a good broker..NOT AOPA. You can get insured.

Pete
 
FYI for those of us that are Sport Pilots or those of you training to be you may or may not have noticed yet that there is a REQUIRED endorsement to fly any LSA that is capable of more than 87 knots. If you fly and get your ticket in anything that flys slower you will not be legal in the 12!

I fly an Evektor Sport Star, it was 742 lbs, low wing rotax 912, very similar to the 12 except it sinks like a brick when you pull the power and the fuel is in the wings.

I flew out of Scottsdale AZ, (well still do while I am renting) so I got all endorsements, greater than 87kts, BCD airspace, bravo transition. This is the way to go as you have full rights to do anything in an LSA anywhere as long as you are above minimums and in daylight.

Alliance Flight Schools in Scottsdale has two, good instructors, well maintained planes, if you are in the area or want a warm weather vacation I would recommend them for a few hours. ($99.00 wet)
 
Transition training is still sparse

Well, I guess I'm looking at a "commercial tube" trip. I'm in Virginia and it's looking like I only have three options for RV tailwheel transition training - Florida, Texas, or Oregon. From post on VAF, all three are good options.

I hope more CFI's join the program so we get a bit more coverage. I'm thankful we have at least these options given the value of transition training but the relatively high cost to those who provide it.
 
DA20

While I have no experience in a RV12, one aircraft that comes to mind is the Diamond DA20. It is light and has very responsive controls. They are popping up everywhere as primary trainers and could possibly provide you with ample experience in order to jump into a -12. Anyone here that has flown both a DA20 and the RV12 might know of they are alike in flight characteristics.

Just a thought. BTW the DA20 is a great flyer in itself. Of course this probably wouldn't work too well if you are exercising a sport pilot certificate.
 
Sorry...not alike. I notice you are in the Tulsa area. If you ever get down Dallas way I would be happy to take you out in mine. Who doesn't like an excuse to fly!

Pete
 
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