What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Certificate of Airworthiness Woes

DonFromTX

DonFromTX

Well Known Member
Well I have cooled off since my DAR went home with the papers instead of giving them to me. I felt I should share my experience to perhaps keep others from a similar experience. I am located where there are no DAR's within about 600 miles!
For convenience my fuselage and tools are in my air conditioned garage at my house, and the wings are in the hangar several miles away. It is much more comfortable to work here at home on wheel pants and my various "extras" which my plane is full of. I became aware of a DAR that had done a RV12/Viking recently, and called to see if he could do mine, and what he wanted to see. As you all know, DARs seem to each write their own regulations and their requirements can be all over the place. The separated wings and fuselage was discussed in detail, he claimed to have read my entire kitlog, and claimed that he had an option, either send in a photo of the plane with wings on, or submit a three view drawing of it (which I have) and that he could of course inspect the wings far better if not installed. This did not surprise me much, even Mel's instructions are as cut and pasted from his email: "I want to see the aircraft with inspection covers and cowling removed as if for a condition inspection." Can be read both ways, but since a condition inspection requires the wings to be removed, I supposed he wanted to see the wings OFF too.
We had two planes to inspect, the other one was first, took all of 10 minutes to glance at the plane (An RV8a). Data plate, Experimental passenger warning and that was it. Thinking I was in for the same the next day, it all turned sour! He called his "boss" at some MIDO who told him he could never give an AW cert to a plane that had the wings off! He then told me that he would just keep the papers until I sent him a photo of the wings on. His boss again said no way, since I could change things around in the meantime to make it not in condition for the certificate. His final offer was that all I had to do is pay him for another visit, $1200 and he would come back and see it with the wings on!
Obviously putting the wings on is a complicated technical operation and cannot be entrusted to a simple builder, Tech counselor, and A&P like myself, but $1200 seems stiff as well. Since it should fly just fine without the piece of paper, I am tempted to just forget about it. I think the EAA idea of DAR's was a good idea gone really wrong, letting the MIDO loaf and making homebuilders play a game that is costly and they cannot win.
It is a real shame, but I would encourage a builder to get EXACTLY what the DAR wants in writing, and then include a statement that if he wants to change the rules when he gets there, he can go home with none of your money. If he won't sign it, he is probably looking to rip you off with multiple visits.
 
If the DAR claimed he could do it wings off, but later was overruled by his boss, he should not charge you for the first trip because it was his error.
This is exactly what small claims courts are for. Ask for your money back, and sue if he won't return it.
 
Just to clear things up a little. I have communicated with Don on several occasions. I NEVER told him that I wanted the wings off for an airworthiness inspection. I have certificated over 800 experimental and light-sport aircraft and have never done the inspection without wings installed on the aircraft. And I don't know of any other inspector that would consider doing so. I also told him that before I undertook the job, I would make sure that everyone was on the same page concerning the condition I expected the aircraft to be in.
Some DARs may have minor differences but I think Don is painting with a pretty broad brush.
Bottom line........There's more to the story!
 
Last edited:
Don, My idea of using a DAR rather than an FAA is that they will really give the plane a good inspection and find things that even the best of us may miss during the build. Would you trust your life to a DAR that needed to call his "Boss" on the most simple things? If you want a rubber stamp call the FAA. From what I have heard they will count the wings, kick the tires and spend the rest of the time looking over the paperwork. I would prefer a DAR that I can bet my life on. It appears he may not be one. . . .but there are always two sides of a story. Keep Us posted
 
FAA rubber stamp

In my case, I chose the FAA for my inspection. Two FAA inspectors arrived and did a very thorough inspection. It definitely was not a kick the tires and paperwork inspection. In fact, they required all zip ties to be removed from firewall forward before they'd sign off (they insisted on adel clamps to secure all wires). Overall, I was quite impressed by their level of detail in the inspection.

Jim Diehl 7A
Flying since 2012
Lock Haven, pa
 
There are some very good FAA Inspectors out there and there are some unscrupulous DARs. One difference is that the unscrupulous DAR won't last long. Word travels fast.
The other difference is that many FAA Inspectors don't have the time to keep current on experimental and light-sport aircraft whereas DARs do.

I think you will find that, overall, most DARs are very easy to work with and charge a reasonable fee.
 
I put more faith in my own inspection than that of any party with possibly no knowledge of the airframe they are inspecting. In my four homebuilts I have had very detailed inspections by DARs and some not so detailed. None found anything that was life threatening, and several missed items I found in testing. Don't get me wrong, I don't pretend to know it all, and I enlist the help of A&Ps that I trust if there is any question. It's just that if my life is at risk I am the one who needs to be satisfied and I don't rely on a DAR for my safety.
 
Sorry Mel, I meant no disrespect to you. In over 5 years on VAF, I have NEVER heard a bad word about you, not even one.
I was using you as that example of a good DAR that has inspected over 800 EABs - most all of which the wings don't come off for an condition inspection! The point was to readers to make sure there is a good understanding on a 12 simply because they are different. I have no clue what you have meant about there being more to the story.

.
Mel said:
Just to clear things up a little. I have communicated with Don on several occasions. I NEVER told him that I wanted the wings off for an airworthiness inspection. I have certificated over 800 experimental and light-sport aircraft and have never done the inspection without wings installed on the aircraft. And I don't know of any other inspector that would consider doing so. I also told him that before I undertook the job, I would make sure that everyone was on the same page concerning the condition I expected the aircraft to be in.
Some DARs may have minor differences but I think Don is painting with a pretty broad brush.
Bottom line........There's more to the story!
Click to expand...
 
This is just some of the points I was trying to get across. I was unaware of any regulation saying you cannot use zip ties under the cowling. I am beginning to understand that each MIDO makes up its own rules, and maybe even makes them up as they go. It is definitely a thorny thicket out there, where there should be no such confusion. In five years of reading VAF, this is the first time I had heard this one. I even asked this DAR to produce to me something in writing that said the wings had to be on since that was his reason for refusal, or anything about failing if the wings were off. He could not, simply stated that was verbal instructions. He would not give me a refusal either, I kinda wanted to see that in writing. He did do an EAA Tech Counselor report however, but did not even leave me a copy. Most of you have it easy, the DAR can drop back by the next day when he is at his hangar, not so way down here in the Rio Grande Valley. I dropped by my brother that just retired from Wash DC FSDO yesterday, he was telling me stories of people trailering their aircraft to EAB friendly FSDO regions for AW certificates. That may well be my best bet as well. My only point is that is simply should not be that way.

jdiehl said:
In my case, I chose the FAA for my inspection. Two FAA inspectors arrived and did a very thorough inspection. It definitely was not a kick the tires and paperwork inspection. In fact, they required all zip ties to be removed from firewall forward before they'd sign off (they insisted on adel clamps to secure all wires). Overall, I was quite impressed by their level of detail in the inspection.

Jim Diehl 7A
Flying since 2012
Lock Haven, pa
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
g. Aircraft Inspection. The FAA must arrange with the applicant to make the aircraft available for inspection to determine, at a minimum, the following:
......................
(4) The flight control system, engine(s), propeller(s), pitot static system, and associated instruments operate properly.

This is a portion of the required inspection taken from FAA Order 8130-2H. 8130-2H is our "Bible" for airworthiness inspection.

If the wings are not installed, one cannot verify that the flight control systems are operating properly. i.e. ailerons, flaps, etc.

Believe it or not, I have founds ailerons, rudders, and elevators rigged backwards. Yes, even on RV-12s.
 
Last edited:
One of the things about these inspections is some FSDOs will do an inspection for no direct cost to the builder while others refuse. We all pay the same tax rates but some get the inspection do free while others have to pay a DAR. A friend had his home build glider inspected last year, cost $800. That was in Norfolk Va. And I don't think it involved a lot of travel for the DAR. If the FSDOs wants to use DARs, fine but they should pay them out of their own budget.
 
I totally agree. I think this is what bugs me the most, the "unfairness" tax some of us have to pay. This DAR for instance has never built an experimental, and brags he has never even ridden in an experimental! Yet I have to let him crawl over my plane, act like god, and tell me what HE thinks should be done! I guess like other things, it started off OK. I am told by EAA that builders were having a rough time getting the FAA to issue AW certs, so EAA stepped in, got the authority for DARs and paid for their training, so they could give the certificates free to EAA members. (Encouraging EAB, wow what a concept that was)

wilddog said:
One of the things about these inspections is some FSDOs will do an inspection for no direct cost to the builder while others refuse. We all pay the same tax rates but some get the inspection do free while others have to pay a DAR. A friend had his home build glider inspected last year, cost $800. That was in Norfolk Va. And I don't think it involved a lot of travel for the DAR. If the FSDOs wants to use DARs, fine but they should pay them out of their own budget.
Click to expand...
 
I inspected a plane that had just been certificates by a reputable DAR. The elevators moved about 15 degrees independently because the pushrod bolt was not tightened through the horns. The control cables on the engine were loose and jam nuts loose. On several belcranks I found loose connecting bolts and loose jam nuts. It was a disgrace. I told the guy I wouldn't fly it. It crashed on the second flight or so.

Don't assume the plane is safe just because a DAR signed it off, no matter who they are.
 
When I do condition inspections on EAB planes, I sometimes find stuff that shocks me too. The worst seems to be the person that buys an EAB, then does his own maintenance with little knowledge of what he is doing but with full authority to do it!
 
DonFromTX said:
This is just some of the points I was trying to get across. I was unaware of any regulation saying you cannot use zip ties under the cowling. I am beginning to understand that each MIDO makes up its own rules, and maybe even makes them up as they go. It is definitely a thorny thicket out there, where there should be no such confusion. In five years of reading VAF, this is the first time I had heard this one. I even asked this DAR to produce to me something in writing that said the wings had to be on since that was his reason for refusal, or anything about failing if the wings were off. He could not, simply stated that was verbal instructions. He would not give me a refusal either, I kinda wanted to see that in writing. He did do an EAA Tech Counselor report however, but did not even leave me a copy. Most of you have it easy, the DAR can drop back by the next day when he is at his hangar, not so way down here in the Rio Grande Valley. I dropped by my brother that just retired from Wash DC FSDO yesterday, he was telling me stories of people trailering their aircraft to EAB friendly FSDO regions for AW certificates. That may well be my best bet as well. My only point is that is simply should not be that way.
Click to expand...

There isn't any reg that's says you can't use zip ties FWF. There are best practices that recommend when and when not to use them and the material from which they should be made out of (e.g. tefzel vs nylon). Pull the cowl of a new Cessna fresh out of the factory and you'll see zip ties.

The problem is the guy doing the inspection can impose their will on you as they have the leverage of issuing or declining to issue the AWC. You can fight them, but it's usually easiest to acquiesce and do what they want so they get away with it. At our FSDO there's an inspector that insists that you have to have a whiskey compass regardless of any magnetometer systems installed before he'll sign off. There's no FAR requirement for a whiskey compass as the only legal magnetic direction indicator and the FAA's General Counsel has backed that interpretation up in writing, but that doesn't stop this, err gentleman from making guys install compasses in order to get the AWC.

The moral here is to know in advance what a given inspector's requirements are, whether DAR or FAA, and play the game accordingly. Should we have to do this, nope, but for my money it's a small price to pay to get the AWC, especially after of years of building. YMMV....
 
Last edited:
jdiehl said:
In my case, I chose the FAA for my inspection. Two FAA inspectors arrived and did a very thorough inspection. It definitely was not a kick the tires and paperwork inspection. In fact, they required all zip ties to be removed from firewall forward before they'd sign off (they insisted on adel clamps to secure all wires). Overall, I was quite impressed by their level of detail in the inspection.

Jim Diehl 7A
Flying since 2012
Lock Haven, pa
Click to expand...

Sure hope I don't run into the same during my inspection (I understand the issue of not using nylocks or wire ties fwf for structural anchoring as 250 degree temps will cause damage); but for "prettying up" wiring runs....come on, there will be more than wiring tie damage I.e. Wire insulation amoung other issues that will have to be looked at if you had an actual fire fwf!!!!
 
I have found, with many years experience, that knowing the FAA's rules as good or better than they do will save you a lot of grief in dealing with them. A little studying before calling a DAR or the FAA goes a long way and there is a lot of help here about what needs to be studied.
 
Phantom30 said:
Sure hope I don't run into the same during my inspection (I understand the issue of not using nylocks or wire ties fwf for structural anchoring as 250 degree temps will cause damage); but for "prettying up" wiring runs....come on, there will be more than wiring tie damage I.e. Wire insulation amoung other issues that will have to be looked at if you had an actual fire fwf!!!!
Click to expand...

I hope the same thing...

But, if the DAR insists on the zip tie removal, then polyester lacing tape would be a fairly quick replacement and good to 450 F.
 
Hmmm...

Really sorry to hear about the problems you guys are having with DAR's. I trust it is the exception.

BTW, the EAA didn't pay for anything----we paid, and continue to pay, for our initial training and required recurrent training, including travel if required.

I do hear some do a paperwork inspection, and I know some are happy with that, not wanting anyone to look over their airplane. IN the hundreds I have done, I have only ever issued one denial, and we both agreed to it as the engine of questionable origin was over 30 years old and had never been run since it was pulled off of another airplane. Not safe. I came back and licensed it after some work was done.

I believe my job is two-fold--make sure the paperwork is right for the FAA, but more importantly, to insure that you have a safe first flight. It's really just a VERY THOROUGH preflight for you. Most of the items I find are fixed on the spot, or the same day. The missing jam nuts on controls are found on almost every airplane except a couple.

Face it, building an airplane is a huge project, and things can get overlooked. I pointed out a bunch of rivets missing in the vertical spar of an RV12 once and the builder kept staring at them and still couldn't see them! Sometimes we see what we want to see. And on a couple of airplanes there were some serious issues that most likely would have been catastrophic on the first flight.

I'm OK with anyone looking over my airplane ANYTIME, before first flight or anytime you happen to be in the hangar or around my airplane. I'd rather find the problem on the ground.

As with any profession, there are a few bad apples. The rest of us, and you know who we are on this Forum, try our best to make up for them.

Vic
 
I agree 100% with Vic. I have denied 2 aircraft in the last 17 years.
One had several major fuel line chafe problems.
After 3 visits, the builder finally agreed to correct the problems and we got it done.
The other one was a little more complex and had to do with a highly modified major component that I wasn't comfortable with.
The builder found another DAR who signed it off. The component failed in flight within 4 months of A/W issuance. My name was NOT on the Airworthiness Certificate.
 
Inspection

Don,

Being in a remote part of Australia I had to fly an inspector (L3) to my location to assist with the final inspection. In my case i had a great inspector and the inspection experience was very positive thanks to Dean.
I hope you can get the remainder of your inspection cleared up quickly and move on to the next exciting phase, "The Flying"

Mel,
Now you have my attention, I'll bite! How were the aileron connections connected in the reverse sense on a RV12?

Cheers, Andrew.
 
AJSWA said:
Mel,
Now you have my attention, I'll bite! How were the aileron connections connected in the reverse sense on a RV12?
Cheers, Andrew.
Click to expand...

In the RV-12 case, it was the stabilator that was reversed.

My statement was meant to state that I have found aileron, rudder, and elevator controls reversed on different aircraft, even on the RV-12, not that I have found all of these on the -12.

Sorry for the confusion.
 
Inspection

Mel,

Thanks, I was hoping that was the case. I just wanted to clear that up.

Whilst it is concerning that control systems do get connected / routed incorrectly occasionally (even in the case of GA aircraft whilst in maintenance) the final inspection and in Aust (I don't know anything about the US process) a duplicate control system inspection must be carried out and signed off by both of the inspecting persons prior to flight, to catch these oversights and ensure safe correct operation of control systems, this defiantly needs to happen without exception, I can't help but feel Don's pain and angst especially when there are huge distances and significant costs involved, possibly caused by assumptions and unclear communications.
I suspect Don is a bit like myself, in that we recognisei it is as much our fault as the other person involved and beat ourselves up for our short coming, which shows up when we are trying to share details of the mistake so others can learn and reduce the chance of others experiencing the same disappointing situation.
 
You might have paid for yours Vic, but EAA claimed that originally the EAA paid, and still does. Recently I was considering becoming a DAR since there are none around, and the FSDO even asked me to. The EAA was offering an amount, seems like $765 if I recall correctly to encourage me to become a DAR by helping with the training costs. With nobody else building down here, and plenty of DARs in the rest of the world, it made no sense to do it. Besides, I found I could not issue my own AW cert anyhow!

vic syracuse said:
Really sorry to hear about the problems you guys are having with DAR's. I trust it is the exception.

BTW, the EAA didn't pay for anything----we paid, and continue to pay, for our initial training and required recurrent training, including travel if required.
Vic
Click to expand...
 
DAR...based inspection

Yippy Skippy....just finished up my AW inspection. Was warned that our local DAR was a SOB... So needless to say, I was a little apprehensive.

Turned out he was very professional, extremely through; and best of all, N312RD is now legal...and have Mike Seager scheduled for Phase 1 fly-off. 3 plus years and it is finally done!

Now to get some time in the saddle...so I can have some $100 hamburgers.
 
And I am so happy for you!!
It now appears that I will be getting the FAA to come give me my AW cert and inspection. I guess that will make my plane one of the few that got its AW cert by being inspected by BOTH a DAR and the FAA!
 
I visited him last week in San Antonio, had to make sure he had all the "becoming a Texan" rule book memorized. He still had a bit of that screwed up "way out East" attitude to overcome, but he and Joyce are working on it.

Skykingbob said:
Hey Don....to bad you didn't have Norm do it BEFORE he left the agency!!:cool:
Click to expand...
 
DonFromTX said:
You might have paid for yours Vic, but EAA claimed that originally the EAA paid, and still does.
Click to expand...

Not sure what they mean by "Originally". Most of us had our DAR long before EAA ever got into the system.
We all paid for our training and continue to do so.
 
Interesting for sure. My contact at the EAA claims that the DAR system was the sole product of the EAA trying to get service for its members, since the FAA was not cooperating very well. He claims that to make it happen after it was approved, EAA provided funds for training (and still does). I have no recollection of those days, so was merely stating what the EAA told me. That is supposed to be the reason that on the DAR list there are EAA DARs that do not charge for their services, since they agreed to not charge since the EAA paid for their training. Sounds like there is a lot more to that story than appears here..

Mel said:
Not sure what they mean by "Originally". Most of us had our DAR long before EAA ever got into the system.
We all paid for our training and continue to do so.
Click to expand...
 
DonFromTX said:
Well I have cooled off since my DAR went home with the papers instead of giving them to me. I felt I should share my experience to perhaps keep others from a similar experience. I am located where there are no DAR's within about 600 miles!
For convenience my fuselage and tools are in my air conditioned garage at my house, and the wings are in the hangar several miles away. It is much more comfortable to work here at home on wheel pants and my various "extras" which my plane is full of. I became aware of a DAR that had done a RV12/Viking recently, and called to see if he could do mine, and what he wanted to see. As you all know, DARs seem to each write their own regulations and their requirements can be all over the place. The separated wings and fuselage was discussed in detail, he claimed to have read my entire kitlog, and claimed that he had an option, either send in a photo of the plane with wings on, or submit a three view drawing of it (which I have) and that he could of course inspect the wings far better if not installed. This did not surprise me much, even Mel's instructions are as cut and pasted from his email: "I want to see the aircraft with inspection covers and cowling removed as if for a condition inspection." Can be read both ways, but since a condition inspection requires the wings to be removed, I supposed he wanted to see the wings OFF too.
We had two planes to inspect, the other one was first, took all of 10 minutes to glance at the plane (An RV8a). Data plate, Experimental passenger warning and that was it. Thinking I was in for the same the next day, it all turned sour! He called his "boss" at some MIDO who told him he could never give an AW cert to a plane that had the wings off! He then told me that he would just keep the papers until I sent him a photo of the wings on. His boss again said no way, since I could change things around in the meantime to make it not in condition for the certificate. His final offer was that all I had to do is pay him for another visit, $1200 and he would come back and see it with the wings on!
Obviously putting the wings on is a complicated technical operation and cannot be entrusted to a simple builder, Tech counselor, and A&P like myself, but $1200 seems stiff as well. Since it should fly just fine without the piece of paper, I am tempted to just forget about it. I think the EAA idea of DAR's was a good idea gone really wrong, letting the MIDO loaf and making homebuilders play a game that is costly and they cannot win.
It is a real shame, but I would encourage a builder to get EXACTLY what the DAR wants in writing, and then include a statement that if he wants to change the rules when he gets there, he can go home with none of your money. If he won't sign it, he is probably looking to rip you off with multiple visits.
Click to expand...
I am a DAR-T and DAR-F, recently, the FSDO curtailed all original certifications including DAR-T's. This is now assigned to the MIDO, and DAR-F's. This void will be filled in the near future. I go anywhere to inspect and issue as a DAR-F, if one needs certification, contact the local MIDO. I work through the Seattle MIDO if I can be of assistance. Gary Brown.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top