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'Notify' worse than "We need to talk"

Dgamble

Dgamble

Well Known Member
I'm starting to hate emails with the subject line 'Notify'

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DO NOT REPLY to the address that this e-mail was sent from.
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ATTN: All RV-12 SLSA and ELSA Flying Aircraft or Kits under construction


Notification of Minor cracks in HS-1204 Fwd Inbd Rib


Important RV-12 Notice!


Be advised that a Notification has been posted to our website on 5-14- 14. Please visit www.vansaircraft.com, click on Support, then Service Information and Revisions or go directly to the Notification section using this link:

http://www.vansaircraft.com/public/service-rv12.htm
 
****! Just when I thought my annual was just about finished! Well, at least the covers are still off. I'm going to try seeing in there with my little Harbor Freight bore scope before I go to all the trouble of taking off the HS, that's for sure. I'll let you know how that goes.
 
BigJohn said:
****! Just when I thought my annual was just about finished! Well, at least the covers are still off. I'm going to try seeing in there with my little Harbor Freight bore scope before I go to all the trouble of taking off the HS, that's for sure. I'll let you know how that goes.
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Yeah, I grabbed one of those $20 dental cams - I'm hoping it can do the trick. Pulling the stab was one of those things I swore never to do again.
 
BigJohn said:
****! Just when I thought my annual was just about finished! Well, at least the covers are still off. I'm going to try seeing in there with my little Harbor Freight bore scope before I go to all the trouble of taking off the HS, that's for sure. I'll let you know how that goes.
Click to expand...


I just signed off my condition inspection on 5/13/14. :mad: I'll wait to hear from you folks if the bore scope works, if so, I'll go purchase one.
 
This is described as an Annual Condition Inspection Item. Does this mean that there may be pre-existing manufacturing cracks in the ribs and therefore the ribs need to inspected once at the next annual, or does it mean that these cracks may develop over time and therefore the ribs need to be inspected at each annual? To me it sounds like the latter, but hopefully not.
 
rgmwa said:
This is described as an Annual Condition Inspection Item. Does this mean that there may be pre-existing manufacturing cracks in the ribs and therefore the ribs need to inspected once at the next annual, or does it mean that these cracks may develop over time and therefore the ribs need to be inspected at each annual? To me it sounds like the latter, but hopefully not.
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That was exactly my next question. Scott, can you help fill in the blanks here?
 
If no cracks are found no further action is required.

...does make it sound like a one-time event. Also, these were in unassembled ribs. You would think cracks in earlier ribs might have been noticed at some point in the last five years. Be interesting to see if anyone finds any huh?
 
From a Layman's Point of View!

It sounds like it may be a rib batch problem, and not all of the production of these ribs. Most of us deburred, cleaned, straightened, scotch brightened, and inspected these ribs before installing them. Some even primed/painted before installing. Guaranteed, as mentioned, someone would have noticed it. I know I would have noticed cracks, and either did a stress relieve, or made a call to Van's. The wording of the notification gave me the idea that, if no cracks were found at this time, none were likely to show up later. Basically the cracks are the result of a manufacturing defect, not a flight stress issue. At least I hope that is correct.

Van is doing it right. He is notifying his customers, and getting the necessary feedback to "nip it in the bud". I'm sure the effected ribs will be identified, which will probably point to a specific date of manufacture group.. Time will tell.............Tom
 
To Vans Aircraft - More information please

Does this new Notification relate in any way to Notification 05-17-11? Those of us who were building back then already inspected those ribs. If this is a new problem, is it strictly a manufacturing problem? Have the cracks been observed in any flying aircraft? It seems there ought to be a way to address this with much smaller brush strokes than advising the disassembly of all flying airplanes.
 
Regarding inspection methods....

By pressing my eyeball firmly to the tool hole and shining a very small LED light in the other hole I was able to confirm no cracks in outboard ribs. I was able to bend the bore scope in such a way so as to see the middle ribs. No cracks there either. Couldn't really find a way to see the inner rib, but I'm not going to pull anything apart until more is known about this issue.

BTW, can anyone find any wording on the legal ramifications of a "Notification"? I think I have seen it somewhere but can't lay hands on it right now.
 
Finally I have a reason to buy an endoscopic camera! Now I need to search the forum for some good choices. Amazon seems to have some cheap ones. The two I currently find on Harbor Freight are not that cheap and seem short.
 
BigJohn said:
By pressing my eyeball firmly to the tool hole and shining a very small LED light in the other hole I was able to confirm no cracks in outboard ribs. I was able to bend the bore scope in such a way so as to see the middle ribs. No cracks there either. Couldn't really find a way to see the inner rib, but I'm not going to pull anything apart until more is known about this issue.

BTW, can anyone find any wording on the legal ramifications of a "Notification"? I think I have seen it somewhere but can't lay hands on it right now.
Click to expand...

I'm with you John.
 
I don't know whether Scott will comment or not, and wouldn't blame him if he didn't given some of the reaction he gets here at times for trying to help, but this seems to be the same kind of minor manufacturing defect that some of us have experienced before in these ribs. Easy to fix while building, and certainly more awkward to access when the stab is complete, but still no big deal in the scheme of things. The synopsis in the notification suggests it's a one off inspection and not a recurring annual event as the time of compliance could be taken to mean. It would be nice to be sure on this point though.
 
WingedFrog said:
The notches I mentioned were a way for VANs to cover the cracks made during manufacturing. I guess they missed a few
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How much can one of those ribs cost to make? Certainly not enough to risk your brand's reputation on a "good enough is good enough" QA program and an ensuing reputation for a substandard level of quality.

It boggles the mind that those ribs weren't just tossed out.
 
Dgamble said:
How much can one of those ribs cost to make? Certainly not enough to risk your brand's reputation on a "good enough is good enough" QA program and an ensuing reputation for a substandard level of quality.

It boggles the mind that those ribs weren't just tossed out.
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Unfortunately VANs is not specific enough in their notice for us to know if the ribs involved are the ones that were "corrected" i.e., notched as mines or the ones they missed and shipped to unwitting customers . I believe it's the latter because else their credibility would be in doubt for what they told us about the validity of their fix. Still if this is the case, why bother the guys who received their kits in the last 3 to 4 years when this problem was supposedly fixed?
... or may be the problem came back in their manufacturing process?

Only VANs knows!

I know VANs is in a tough business and they need to protect it (for our own good as well as theirs) but they could use a little more transparency when communicating with their customers affected by this.
 
Success using Borescope

Was able to inspect the 4 inner ribs using a borescope. The camera head was only 9mm and fit through the narrow opening in the photo below. Our scope had 12 feet of cable but 2 or 3 feet should work.
 
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Advice from Vans

I asked Vans whether this is intended to be a one-off or a recurring annual inspection item. Received this response:

"Right now we don't know if cracks will extend, but we may learn the answer when inspections have been conducted for a few cycles. Ribs should be inspected at least every condition inspection".
 
rgmwa said:
I asked Vans whether this is intended to be a one-off or a recurring annual inspection item. Received this response:

"Right now we don't know if cracks will extend, but we may learn the answer when inspections have been conducted for a few cycles. Ribs should be inspected at least every condition inspection".
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What about wing ribs? Are they not subject to cracks too?
 
"Right now we don't know if cracks will extend, but we may learn the answer when inspections have been conducted for a few cycles. Ribs should be inspected at least every condition inspection".[/QUOTE]

So we have to remove the HS every annual inspection? Not happy :(
 
You would think Scott and Van's could suggest an alternative inspection method, even though it might suggest the purchase of a borescope or another specialized tool that will work to perform the inspection.

Van's has resisted suggesting the purchase of a specialized tool. This might be an exception that we would welcome.

I can understand will they resist.

Removal of the HS is NOT a trivial job.

Scott?? You have been silent! Sure would be nice if you can suggest an alternative inspection technique. Sure would be nice if Van's would provide the reasons why the bulletin was issued!! Was it noticed on a flying RV-12 or parts that were scheduled for the production RV-12 or parts on the shelf, similar to the previous bulletin?
 
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In an effort to clear up any confusion...

A update has been made to the NOTIFICATION 14-05-14 document, to clarify the time of compliance.

It now contains the statement -
Time of Compliance: One time inspection at or before next Annual Condition Inspection.

The one time inspection (some time during the next year), corresponds to the low level of concern regarding the likelihood of cracks and the low level of seriousness if there is cracks.

Regarding questions on the required process for compliance...

Since its release, the notification has stated - For easiest inspection of the 4 inboard HS-1204 Fwd Inbd Ribs removal of the stabilator is recommended

Removal of the stabilator is not a requirement. It was just a recommended process to use, based on the tools most people would be likely to have on hand.
If the person doing the inspection is able to devise a different method, that still allows them to make a determination that the are willing to sign their name to in the log book, then removal of the stabilator would not be required.
 
That's good news. Thanks for the clarification Scott. A `one time inspection' is much better than the 'at least every condition inspection' interval previously advised.
 
TomVal said:
Was able to inspect the 4 inner ribs using a borescope. The camera head was only 9mm and fit through the narrow opening in the photo. (see previous post). Our scope had 12 feet of cable but 2 or 3 feet should work.
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What type (model) of borescope did you use? Has anyone considered enlarging the tooling holw in the HS endcap for the borescope? Could be covered with a stainless button cover.

Anyone else have good luck with a borescope? Please let us know!
 
Were these cracks found only in recently made ribs?

My kit (120241) was shipped in August 2009 and we certainly did NOT see and cracks during preparation. We de-burred and sanded every one of those holes and would have seen any cracks at that time. It sounds as though the cracks were found in ribs that hadn't been shipped. I don't see that there is any mechanism to generate cracks once the stab has been assembled.

Wayne 120241/143WM with 240 hours
 
Kit #120119 Ditto what Wayne said. We were anal about stress cracking, and tooling marks. Like him, we deburred and polished every hole. No cracks were found during the build.

Tom
 
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