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AD on carb floats

Ex Bonanza Bucko

Well Known Member
It's been 69 days since the carb float SB was issued. All of us have been through at least one float inspection.

If this really is a safety problem on 912 engines I think it's time for Rotax to ask for an AD. If they don't do that I think it's time for us to ask the FAA to issue one. That might get Rotax interested in speeding things up or at least giving customers some info about the status of this.

There also is at least some controversy or confusion about the difference between an SB and a Safety Directive (SD) and an AD. I think it's time to clear that up too.

EBB
 
I would leave the FAA alone on this, we all know the story too well:
"We are from the government and we are here to help you" :eek:
 
I stand to be corrected here but I don't think manufacturers request regulating authorities to issue an Airworthiness Directive on one of their own products.

Manufacturers have an obligation to provide continuing airworthiness data in the form of Service Bulletins, Service Instructions and Service Letters.

Aircraft engineers (as we call ourselves in Europe, in the USA you have mechanics) technically assess the continuing airworthiness data and if they're sensible, comply with it.

There is also a responsibility for the aircraft owner to ensure they have their aircraft correctly maintained.

No one has to wait for the regulating authority (issued by the state of manufacture or state of registry) to issue an AD based on an SB to comply with it.

Not everyone has had to comply with (or has complied with) the float SB as it limited by engine serial number and parts supply.

Personally, I am confused by any thought that an engine manufacturer wouldn't be doing their best to make good any deficiencies or problems with their product - why wouldn't they?

Be very careful with what you wish for.....
 
The nice thing about experimental is the freedom it gives us. I wouldn't invite additional regulatory attention. If I had my way all those steam Gage's in my Cherokee would be replaced with a Skyview. Big Brother frowns on that. He doesn't always get it right.
 
Regarding any issue in which we owners still have the opportunity to exercise discretion and perhaps even common sense, asking the feds for "clarity" is not likely to improve the situation. One can choose to always maximally follow every suggestion by every component manufacturer if one wishes, or exercise some judgement.

In general, one should not act to mess things up for others that have a different viewpoint. Every builder/owner does not need to be told exactly what and how to address each issue that arises. Some find comfort in such an arrangement, others prefer more flexibility.

Many ADs proposed by the FAA have met with howling resistance because of technical errors, which produced AD revisions (but often still with major problems.) That process is so imperfect as to make "requesting an AD" very likely a really poor idea. Not everything must be either mandatory or forbidden.
 
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Bill hit the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. Asking for an AD is like calling the irs and asking them to audit you. Both a very bad idea. That's what you do to someone you hate (I assume, since I don't have anybody I hate).
 
There also is at least some controversy or confusion about the difference between an SB and a Safety Directive (SD) and an AD. I think it's time to clear that up too.

EBB

There should not be any confusion if you read and comprehend the FARs. The other thread about the floats contained several quotes from others showing the differences.

Even if an AD was issued, do you think Rotax will pony up and send you some new design floats? Rotax is notorious for not supporting known issues. Look at the countless service bulletins that address gearbox issues, light weight case cracking issues, ignition module issues, oil pressure sender issues, fuel pump issues etc. they never supplied replacement parts for free to resolve any of these issues. The only parts that I am aware of that Rotax replaced for free was the intake manifold for the IS engine when it was redesigned and became obsolete in less than a year from delivery of the first IS engines.
 
My purpose in mentioning ADs was to get some action on the 71 days since the carb float SB was laid on us.
Those 71 days with no communications beyond a video to my mind reflect a lousy customer focus for any company and especially one ramping up sales in a large new market....the USA. I fly from the busiest GA airport in Southern California which is a very big market for LSAs and training airplanes and the S-LSA certainly is one of those. There are about 100 very tired C-172s and 152s flitting around here that need to be replaced and the S-LSA is perfect for that. But there are only five Rotax engines on the field and two of them are on one airplane, a Tecnam.

I also need to ask you to remember that guys like me are flying an RV12 and not somewhere in the building process so the SB represents a roadblock in our natural desire to go get one of those $20 hamburgers which used to be $150 hamburgers:)

I have been flying for about 40 years and I've owned a lot of airplanes and I've seen a lot of ADs and "mandatory" SBs from such wonderful people as Continental, Beech, Piper, Cessna and Lycoming; I know how those things hurt. And, the FAA is among my least favorite parts of an increasingly predatory government.....maybe a click better than the IRS, but that ain't saying much:)

One of the posters below has called attention to our problem with the carb SB by providing a list of other cases in which Rotax has been kind of deaf. That was all news to me as a newby. But I bet it was also news to some others who ain't newbies and it fits perfectly with the questions I asked and with the suggestion that maybe there are better ways to get Rotax to listen to its customers a little better.

I talked with Van's about all of this and their main guy for S-LSAs said that he was sure Rotax was working pretty hard to fix this. He pointed out that the carb floats are from somebody else further down the supply chain which produces delay. He also reminded me that we live in a nation of predatory lawyers who see GA as a big fat target so Rotax and Van's has to be sure about anything before they jump. (I hope there ain't any of those predatory lawyers on these pages just waiting to lecture me some more about my iconoclasm):)

Some of us would feel better if there were more communications from Rotax about this.

EBB
 
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EBB, sorry if I was an ***... I dint mean to come off that way. I understand the energy that you have on this issue. For you it seems like a three sided issue: #1 rules for mandatory SBs and SDS for SLSA are clearly defined, maybe different than the part 23 world, but they are what they are. #2 the lack of customer communication from Rotax, which unfortunately has always been the way they do business. Not that I am defending them but they do things differently, and almost all of the engines they produce and sell are non-certified units that are to be installed in EAB or SLSA aircraft, and they way I understand it is the manufacturer of an SLSA aircraft is responsible for communicating safety and maintenance issues. #3 Lack of free replacement parts for known defects from Rotax. Good luck with that one, they make great engines, but they have a long track record of not supporting warranty issues or providing upgrade parts for known issues, even when the engine is still under warranty.

The floats are made by Bing, who makes the carbs. There are other sources of Bing parts than from Rotax. They will make some new batches of floats that will be just fine, but it will take some time unfortunately. I had some older used floats that were not affected that I would have given you, but I recently gave them to someone else that was having problems.
http://bingcarburetor.com I have purchased Bing parts here several times.
 
I'm not one of the affected serial numbers (for once some good luck!), but I was wondering about the float availability issue. Have all the overhaul kits in stock been sold by the usual sources (Lockwood, CPS, ETC)? Don't those kits include floats. An expensive way to get the floats, but if the kits are available from old stock at least you'd be flying again.
 
Even if an AD was issued, do you think Rotax will pony up and send you some new design floats? Rotax is notorious for not supporting known issues. Look at the countless service bulletins that address gearbox issues, light weight case cracking issues, ignition module issues, oil pressure sender issues, fuel pump issues etc. they never supplied replacement parts for free to resolve any of these issues. The only parts that I am aware of that Rotax replaced for free was the intake manifold for the IS engine when it was redesigned and became obsolete in less than a year from delivery of the first IS engines.

Really? Perhaps you can quantify your sweeping statement.

I wonder why Rotax sent out latest spec fuel pumps free of charge if what you say is correct? I know - we got one for our RV-12.

Rotax may not send out free replacement parts for every engine they've ever made when they improve a component but what manufacturer of anything ever does that?

Lycoming and TCM have issued the odd SB in their time. Did they send out free updated compnents to all affected motors?

I'm all for freedom of speech and opinion but it would be handy to be factually correct if you want to state facts...

Edit to add: Tecnam is now, I understand, the largest producer of GA aircraft. Nearly all of their aircraft use the Rotax 912 and many of the aircraft are certified (P2002JF, P2008JC and P2006T for instance). I think there are more certified 912s in production/use than you might think.

Rotax provide comprehensive continuing airworthiness data in the form of installation manuals, operators manuals, maintenance manuals, parts catalog(ue)s, SB, etc - all absolutely free of charge and on line. In my book that's better communication with their customers than some others in the industry who demand vast sums of money to access their data....
 
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Yes really! I have never owned a 912 that was in warranty, but I know several who have and only some got the new style fuel pumps replaced for free.

This is not a Rotax vs Lycoming vs Continental argument.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, but you said 'they never supplied replacement parts for free' which is factually incorrect.

Sure, not everyone got the latest fuel pump FOC, for instance, but those under warranty did. Those out of warranty got them at 50% discount, if I remember correctly.

I say again - what manufacturer in any walk of life provides life-long free upgrades for their products?

You single out Rotax as being the bad boys here but in truth they do no less than other aircraft engine manufacturers and in many cases do a whole lot more.
 
Correct me if I'm wrong, Mike, but you said 'they never supplied replacement parts for free' which is factually incorrect.

Sure, not everyone got the latest fuel pump FOC, for instance, but those under warranty did. Those out of warranty got them at 50% discount, if I remember correctly.

I say again - what manufacturer in any walk of life provides life-long free upgrades for their products

You single out Rotax as being the bad boys here but in truth they do no less than other aircraft engine manufacturers and in many cases do a whole lot more.

I never said that Rotax never supplies replacement parts for free. I said I personally know a few people who had affected engines and only some got parts FOC.

No one i know that had affected pumps out of warranty was offered a 50% parts discount. I'm not saying that was not the case, but they paid full price.

None, nor do I or anyone else expect any manufacturer to do something such as that. I never said Rotax should give everyone free parts and upgrades for life. You started the Rotax vs Lycoming vs Continental argument. I really like the Rotax 912 engine and would buy one again.

I strongly disagree, I have much better support from other engine manufacturers, but that's my experience and my opinion. Do a google search for "Rotax warranty denial" and see what kind of experience others have had.
 
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I received a free fuel pump for my RV12 and it was approx 3 years out of warranty. I know of one other person who also got theirs free.
 
120241 also got a free pump

or at least a full refund on the purchase price from Lockwood. Who I assume got their money from Rotax. This three years after the engine was purechased and more than 2 years after first flight.

Wayne 120241/143WM
 
Rotax tries to stay out front and when they have 2-3 issues they' jump in and let people know and try to help.

Or you could have been one of the Zenith 601 people where they had 6 crashes and 9 fatalities and never once took responsibility or helped anyone. After they were going to get slammed and got grounded in Europe they offered to SELL others a retro kit.

I'll take the guys who want to stay out front and help without government and mass intervention.
 
I never said that Rotax never supplies replacement parts for free.

Apologies then Mike, I must have misunderstood your statement in Post #9, if I may quote (my bold for clarity):

Look at the countless service bulletins that address gearbox issues, light weight case cracking issues, ignition module issues, oil pressure sender issues, fuel pump issues etc. they never supplied replacement parts for free to resolve any of these issues.

I thought you meant in that post #9, that Rotax had never supplied replacement parts for free to resolve any of those issues.

My mistake.... ;)
 
Ladies and Gentlemen,

If I may be so bold as to suggest the equestrian is apply the whip to a deceased beast! 😜

Rich
 
Apologies then Mike, I must have misunderstood your statement in Post #9, if I may quote (my bold for clarity):



I thought you meant in that post #9, that Rotax had never supplied replacement parts for free to resolve any of those issues.

My mistake.... ;)

Ah... If you add the important words "those issues" then it changes things doesn't it?
In post 15 you quoted me as saying "they never supplied replacement parts for free".
I know English is tough and reading is fundamental, but words do matter.
Either way I was wrong, as stated the fuel pump issues as one of the parts that Rotax never supplied under warranty. That was incorrect, as they clearly did for some.
 
I stand to be corrected here but I don't think manufacturers request regulating authorities to issue an Airworthiness Directive on one of their own products...

Not true. It happens regularly when an OEM finds a serious airworthiness issue and they want to force operators to address it. I work for an AC mfg and we do request cert authorities to issue ADs. If it is serious enough that we think an AD is required usually the authorities are easily convinced.
 
Not true. It happens regularly when an OEM finds a serious airworthiness issue and they want to force operators to address it. I work for an AC mfg and we do request cert authorities to issue ADs. If it is serious enough that we think an AD is required usually the authorities are easily convinced.

I stand corrected, although I would still think that the regulating authorities issue ADs off their own backs more often than as a request from a manufacturer.
 
LSA get SD's. Certified usually get AD's. Over the years Rotax should have issued an SD verses a Mandatory SB, but they are European and believe mandatory SB's are the same and that the US should stand by them as an SD, but that isn't the way the FAA legal language works. Sometimes the vary things we like about the FAA legal languge is also the same that can shoot us in the foot depending on the situation.
 
Apparently the "new" floats are coming

http://legacy.rotaxowner.com/si_tb_info/serviceb/sb-912-067.pdf

Called Lockwood earlier today and added my name on a list. They might be getting some next week according to the person I spoke with.
---------------
3.3) Exchange of the floats
Exchange of the floats must be carried out according to the latest Maintenance Manual
Heavy.
Only floats without markers have to be changed. Already marked floats (see Fig. below)
-----------
257n891.jpg
 
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Rotax maintenance qualifications

The Rotax SB says: "... Only certified technicians (iRMT-Level: Line Maintenance) are qualified to work on these engines ..."

My understanding is that, as builders of an Experimental, we meet this qualification by definition. Is that correct or am I wrong?
 
The Rotax SB says: "... Only certified technicians (iRMT-Level: Line Maintenance) are qualified to work on these engines ..."

My understanding is that, as builders of an Experimental, we meet this qualification by definition. Is that correct or am I wrong?

You are correct!;)
 
Does anyone have a handle on when Rotax will deliver enough new carb floats to meet demand? Lockwood has been on backorder for a very long time and there seems to be no real info about when that will change.

I also read here that the new floats are exactly the same as the old ones but that Ducati had "tested" them three times instead of the two times previously. Do you know anything about that?

Thanks,
EBB
 
EBB,

I received my "new floats" a couple of weeks ago and will be installing them this coming week. They appear to be exactly like the "old floats" except for two tiny round dents to identify them.
They cost about $35 more than the previous ones but as you said, as far as I know, they've just been tested more. As in quality control. I've sent Lockwood the four floats, which failed, that came with the airplane along with the refund form. They said it'll be a while before they're processed as Rotax does it in batches.

As soon as the "new floats" are installed I'll send the ones we remove in for refund too.

I'll also be installing the new carb springs this week. I've sent the form and invoice from Vans in to McFarland for refund/credit for those too.

I got on the list at Lockwood a while back and they sent them to me when they came in about 2 weeks later.
 
FYI here's a relatively current status on the floats. I was at Lockwood in mid April for the Rotax service course. They had no floats in stock and did not know when they would get more, but were hopeful it would be soon. I got on the wait list for floats on 3/6/15 and they verified that I am now near the top of the list. Fingers crossed and waiting......
 
I have access to a set of new floats that are on a 912/80hp that is about 10 years old. does anyone know if they are the same part? I have not removed them pending a call to Lockwood on the subject. My floats have been on order since March also.
 
I just got off the phone with California Power and they tell me they just spoke to Rotax and they have rescinded on a notice to ship floats out on 5-12-15 stating there is a manufacturing issue and no new shipping date is available.
 
This has been going on for so long that I am beginning to suspect another motive in the delays. It will drive some of the partisans here nuts but I think one should consider that a corporate bean counter would find a delay in shipping new floats as a really nice way to slow down outlays of warranty payments.

EBB :-(
 
EBB are you so untrusting and unhappy in all walks of your life or do you save it up for here....?

Just asking ;)
 
Dear Aerofurb:
Well....it certainly seems that it's time for some pointed questions to be asked. BTW I am supremely happy in most things....but not about a "mandatory" SB (as opposed to an AD that would be "mandatory and which would put enough heat on Rotax to get them more interested) that is now 7 months old.

I guess since you are a "furb" you must spend at least part of your time fixing carb floats and other such stuff.

One of the things I'm happy about right now is sitting on a beautiful Mexican beach watching the sun start to set while I drink a Margarita:)

All the best,
EBB
 
Aerofurb:

No floats allowed in Margaritas. Ours down here in Mexico are made of 1/3 fresh squeezed lime juice, 1/3 Quantreau and 1/3 Commemorativo Tequila. You put crushed ice (I know you Brits are allergic to that) in a shaker and shake!.....no blender allowed just like no "floats." The glass has to be encrusted in salt too.

We have a good buddy, Duncan Robertson of BEA Systems in UK, who comes to our ramp every June for our Bucker Jungmann and Jungmeister fly in just so he can get a real Mexican Margarita; we are experts!.....one local guy, a Jungmann owner with a Jungmeister in construction my Joe Kribus, even has a machine to crank them out. An Engineer like you would approve.

I'll send you a link in another message to a Vimeo slide show I made of a flying trip to our place down here where the Margaritas are a requirement.

I even have a fridge full of good ale although it is cold.....again something you guys don't like.

EBB :)....cheers back to you.
 
Aerofurb and others who may be interested:

Here's the link to a Vimeo slide show I made of "Flying Home Again to Baja" where we have a part time home:

https://vimeo.com/68383565

The video slide show is not too long and it includes music...Mexican and Gringo (US) so turn on your sound. The Mexican song is about la Paloma....the doves...who sing every evening here. The Gringo song is by Randy Newman....good stuff.

I have been a Baja Bush Pilot since the early 1970s and we love flying in this remote, beautiful and so far unspoiled part of the earth. Flying here requires bush skills because there are very few airports, no nav except GPS and very few places for gas---only two of those reliably in 750 nautical miles from La Paz to the border. But freedom to fly is here and If you like that you should come here.

Baja California Mexico is about 900 miles long with a coast on the Pacific Ocean on the West and the Sea of Cortez on the East. Our house is 350 NM South East of the border on the Sea of Cortez. We've lived here part time for almost 40 years.

The RV 12 doesn't come here because it doesn't have the range or the high wind capability that is required here; Bonanzas, C180s, C185s and C210s are the standard single engine birds here....twins don't usually handle the bush as well as a single. Most landings are on dirt or beaches. The Vimeo shows landing on ours...right behind the house.

I hope you enjoy the show as much as we like being here.

All the Best,

EBB
 
EBB,

Thanks for the slide show! I feel more relaxed already sitting here in my office on a Sunny Monday morning. (Wishing I was flying BTW).
 
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