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Nosegear creaking

Scott Will

Scott Will

Well Known Member
I am quickly approaching the 100 hour mark on my noseroller -7A... and loving every moment of it. However I have one issue that is bugging me. My nosegear creaks... a lot... when there is a side load on it (i.e. pushing sideways on the cowl). You can hear the creaking when I tow it out of the hangar and turn the nosewheel or when you intentionally push the airplane to the side. But today I noticed the creaking coming back after a local flight.

About a week ago I serviced the nosegear. I greased the fork and adjusted the breakout force. I found the breakout force to be surprisingly low so I tightened it back up.

I wanted to garner the experience of the experienced nose dragger people. This creaking (don't know of a better way to describe it) isn't normal, is it? When I had the nose gear off the ground, you can see some play in the gear side-to-side as you try to rotate it (looking straight on...imagine rotating it... not about the vertical axis).

My fork is the newer model. I have always flown off improved strips and tried to land without much sideload.

I'm wondering if I should replace the fork. Wonder if the aluminum bore is wearing?

Appreciate the input!
 
Check the fit in the motor mount socket. Apply some inspection torque paint at the socket/leg location and check for movement after it dries.
 
Creaking..

Hi Scott!
I agree with Gasman, you need to make sure the gear isn't twisting in the socket at the mount. I had the problem on my -6A, had a slight motion in this area. Cured the problem by installing a close tolerance AN bolt.
Are you sure it's coming from the nose gear? Another -6A I know of was getting a creaking noise, ends up the main gear weldement bolts needed retorquing.
Good Luck!
 
On initial assembly, I greased the sockets of the gear legs as per the manual (or I thought). I removed the gear legs (all three) at about 2 years, as the right main was creaking when taxiing on grass or rough pavement. I was quite surprised at how the grease had vanished. There was a lot of burnishing and some galling going on in the pressure contact points. I found the thickest grease I could find, and upon removal a few years later, all was ok. I would suspect that the socket is dry where the gear goes into the motor mount. I had some difficulty removing the gear legs during that first inspection. I think the heat in the engine compartment thins the nosegear grease and the breeze going by drives it out. You could try putting some oil liberally on the top of the gear where it is flush with the motor mount, and some into the bottom. If the noise goes away, you have found where your problem is.
 
Would it make sense to insert grease fittings in these locations?

Charlie Becker
N464CB 8A
Finishing
 
Thanks guys... pretty sure I didn't grease that nose gear when I slid it into the mount, so that would be a good thing to check. I'm able to get the creaking when the nose gear is off the ground so I'm pretty sure it's not coming from the main gear legs.

If I recall, I can also get it creaking by moving the nose gear fork by itself and imparting little to no motion on the gear leg.

Guess the hard part is gonna be getting the plane high enough off the ground to get the gear leg out.
 
Rotational movement in mounting bracket

I have 90 hrs on a 9A mostly flying off sod strips and was experiencing nose gear creaking (especially noticeable when moving the a/c with a tow handle).

Following damage to the wheel pant I decided to instal the newer design gear leg and offset fork. When the weight was removed from the nosegear (pull the rear tie down eye down to a floor anchor) it was possible to generate rotational movement in the gear leg indicating that the retaining bolt had probably enlarged the holes in the engine mount bracket.

Grease would not be a solution as once movement starts the holes will probably continue to enlarge.

I am going to instal the new leg with a taper pin which will hopefully avoid the need to remove the engine mount every time to extract the alternative close tolerance bolt as I have very restricted access on my installation. I will probably have the pin fabricated with an exposed thread on the thicker end to facilitate removal.

Rupert Clarke
 
To remove the nosegear, I think you can get the nosewheel high enough by simply weighing down the tail. I put a block under the tail, and put 3 or 4 40# bags of salt to hold it down. You may have to remove the nosewheel. I would think the 7A model will be easier to obtain clearance than my 6A.

Regarding the hole elongating, I've written a bit about this before. It seems to be good practice to see if a close tolerance bolt will go in instead of the normal AN bolt. A taper might be a problem in that it will do all the work at only one end, and you may never get the nosegear out again. I had a heck of a time getting mine out the first time at around 200 hours or so, because the normal AN bolt had upset things enough where it was REALLY difficult just to remove that bolt.
 
Very common problem... Vans to blame.

Vans approves the use of a 5/16" DRILL to drill the gear leg to engine mount hole (on ALL the gear legs including the nose). Well that is very poor advice and as a result many builders do not have a snug bolt to start off with.

What is required is a reamer, and an adustable reamer is even better. This will provide a snug "tap-in" fit. If the fit is not snug in the first place then the bolt sits on less than the full circumfrence of the hole thus causing areas of high stress which results in elongation of the hole. This exacerbates the problem further.

If the hole is sloppy then torqueing up the bolt is useless for removing movement....it works until the first landing.

If you used a drill to drill out your gear leg/engine mount holes then that is almost certainly your problem. If the bolts simply slid in without needing a mechanical tap in the first place then they were too loose. Now you probably have "bruising" of the mount holes as well.

The answer is to buy an adustable hand reamer (range 5/16" to 11/32") and instal a NAS oversize bolt (21/64"). Bring up the hole in very small increments of a approx .002" at a time and test fit the bolt in stages until you have exactly the tightness of fit you want. In mine I need a positive tap with a computhane hammer to get them in...that's what you want.
 
Bolt source

Captain Avgas said:
.....

The answer is to buy an adustable hand reamer (range 5/16" to 11/32") and instal a NAS oversize bolt (21/64"). Bring up the hole in very small increments of a approx .002" at a time and test fit the bolt in stages until you have exactly the tightness of fit you want. In mine I need a positive tap with a computhane hammer to get them in...that's what you want.
Click to expand...

Bob... do you have a source for the oversize bolts?

I tried to find them for a friends RV-6A with not much luck. He was lucky, and said that most of his slop went away when he replaced the bolt. I guess sometimes the mount is heat treated during welding to be harder than the bolt... :)

I guess an NAS1105- with a -X (1/64 os) or -Y (1/32 os) as a suffix...

gil in Tucson
 
az_gila said:
Bob... do you have a source for the oversize bolts?

I tried to find them for a friends RV-6A with not much luck. He was lucky, and said that most of his slop went away when he replaced the bolt. I guess sometimes the mount is heat treated during welding to be harder than the bolt... :)

I guess an NAS1105- with a -X (1/64 os) or -Y (1/32 os) as a suffix...

gil in Tucson
Click to expand...

Hi Gil,
If he replaced the bolt with another AN bolt he might have got a "fat" one....so it could have resulted in a better fit....by luck. AN bolts have a relatively loose tolerance compared to NAS bolts.

I doubt the wear would have been in his original bolt. At 125,000 PSI ultimate tensile strength the steel in the AN bolt would probably be far harder than the steel in the mount.

I don't think that a NAS 1105 is the right bolt. The NAS 1105 is a large head shear bolt. It has the larger head to increase the clamping forces. That is not relevant in this particular application and the large head may not fit through the hole in the firewall. In reality I'm not even sure if the 1105 series comes with oversized shanks. But I wouldn't put my house on it.

The bolt you really need is a NAS6605-X which definitely has a .016 oversize shank.

They're not stocked by everyone but they ARE available through specialist aviation fastener suppliers. Do a Google search.
 
Lil bigger should do the trick!

Captain Avgas said:
Hi Gil,
........

The bolt you really need is a NAS6605-X which definitely has a .016 oversize shank.

They're not stocked by everyone but they ARE available through specialist aviation fastener suppliers. Do a Google search.
Click to expand...


He is right, that would be the bolt of my choice. :)

The next would be NAS6205-(GRIP IN 16THS)X

After that the older NAS2905-(GRIP IN 16THS) (NO X REQUIRED)

I believe these are put in shear, so either would work.

What grip length do you need? (how much material is it going through, include washers)

Let me know and I will check on some for you tomorrow.

We also stock the 1st and second oversize reamers in Regular, Long, and Threaded shank.

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/PDF/Precision_Reamers.pdf
 
AN5-21A

GAHco said:
He is right, that would be the bolt of my choice. :)

The next would be NAS6205-(GRIP IN 16THS)X

After that the older NAS2905-(GRIP IN 16THS) (NO X REQUIRED)

I believe these are put in shear, so either would work.

What grip length do you need? (how much material is it going through, include washers)

Let me know and I will check on some for you tomorrow.

We also stock the 1st and second oversize reamers in Regular, Long, and Threaded shank.

http://www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/PDF/Precision_Reamers.pdf
Click to expand...

I've been following this thread as my -6 has movement in one gear leg after 550TT. I'm pretty sure the plans call for a plain AN5-21A bolt.
I installed a new bolt and torqued it up and it seems tight, but like the previous poster said, only until until the first landing!
As a buyer, not a builder, I found this problem kinda by accident while servicing the wheels and brakes during the condition inspection. My A&P told me about oversized bolts but I wasn't having much luck finding them until this thread, so I was happy to see it!
Gahco....I found page 13 in your catalog and it helped a lot! Thanks Guys!
So I'm thinking:
NAS6605-21X for first oversized .0156
NAS6605-21Y for second oversized .0312
Thanks
 
Measuring NAS Bolts.

Bob Martin said:
I've been following this thread as my -6 has movement in one gear leg after 550TT. I'm pretty sure the plans call for a plain AN5-21A bolt.
I installed a new bolt and torqued it up and it seems tight, but like the previous poster said, only until until the first landing!
As a buyer, not a builder, I found this problem kinda by accident while servicing the wheels and brakes during the condition inspection. My A&P told me about oversized bolts but I wasn't having much luck finding them until this thread, so I was happy to see it!
Gahco....I found page 13 in your catalog and it helped a lot! Thanks Guys!
So I'm thinking:
NAS6605-21X for first oversized .0156
NAS6605-21Y for second oversized .0312
Thanks
Click to expand...

BE CAREFUL!

The dash #'s are not directly interchangeable!

An AN 5-21A Bolt has a 1.688 grip,
but the Part number indicates a 2" + 1/8th" nominal Overall length.
For AN Bolt details www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/an3_thru_an20.pdf

The NAS bolts of which we speak have dash numbers relative to the GRIP length, NOT, the Overall length.

1.688 x 16= 27.008,

or if you math brain works the other way 1.688 divided by 1/16th = 27.008

So the bolt with the matching grip length in NAS would be the NAS6605-27, and for the first oversize add an (X) IE; NAS6605-27X

Remember that you must verify the amount of material you are going through including the washers before ordering these (They are not cheap)

We do have some NAS6605-28X in stock, (one washer longer than a 27x)

Double check your measurements. This link will help you figure out NAS bolts

The first and the last page will be what you are concerned with.

www.gen-aircraft-hardware.com/images/pdf/nashhb.pdf
 
Followup:
I pulled the cowl tonight and took the weight off the nose gear. By moving the nose gear leg even slightly I could see the bolt and nut rotating on the engine mount.

How to fix?
First chore is to remove gear leg and get a sense of how enlarged the hole is. Would be good if an NAS close tolerance would work. Then the question is how to ream? Short of removing the engine mount, I had an idea to make an opening in the bottom skin and ream it from the bottom if I could not do it from the top. Then just make a patch for the bottom... hey it's on the bottom.

Other idea is to use a tapered reamer and have a machine shop make a tapered pin for it.

Hate that this happened. Vans should advise the use of a proper reamer and close tolerance bolt. I had a machinist friend of mine drill the gear leg and this still happened.
 
update RV-6 gear leg

Hate that this happened. Vans should advise the use of a proper reamer and close tolerance bolt. I had a machinist friend of mine drill the gear leg and this still happened. [/FONT][/QUOTE]

I kinda agree that Vans should at least mention this as a possible problem and give the builder the option of doing better, but then again, the builder always has the option to do whatever he wants. I guess the fact that Vans calls for a normal AN bolt makes us think it isn't a problem area.
Being a buyer, not a builder, I now have added, torqueing the gear leg bolts to my condition inspection list. When I found the problem, I found the bolt not tight, so I'm betting if the bolt had stayed tight, it wouldn't had be a problem, as my right gear is still tight. Lucky for me, the bolt on the RV-6 is easy to get to compared to the nose gear of the A model.

The OD of the main gear tube is 1 5/8" or 26-16ths FYI.

"Remember that you must verify the amount of material you are going through including the washers before ordering these (They are not cheap)
We do have some NAS6605-28X in stock, (one washer longer than a 27x)"

Seems the NAS 6605-28X would work, but now I'm wondering if it is big enough to take up all the elongated hole. As GAHco mentioned, these bolts ain't cheap. I may just go to the next standard size up, 3/8 -#6 and drill it with a proper size reamer and a close tolerance NAS bolt. Then keep it tight.
Good Luck.
 
Replace Bolt with Taper Pin

There's an article I wrote a few years ago on the Matronics Wiki that shows another way to approach this problem. Click here.
 
No nylon locknuts

I first noticed this problem when I was under 100 hours, so maybe this is only a fix if you catch it soon enough. I simply replaced the nylon insert locknut that comes in the kit with an all-steel lock nut, and over-torqued it a bit. Even though it had wallowed out a little, I haven't had any movement since.

A taper pin is probably the ultimate solution, and if it ever loosens up again, that's what I'll do, but this has worked so far (280 hours). If you're still building, it would be a great idea to use a reamer and a close-tolerance bolt, while you can still get in there to work on it. But use a steel locknut whatever you do.

I can't imagine why they put a nylon locknut in the kit for this application. It sits right over the exhaust stacks and obviously gets way too hot for even high-temp nylon.
 
snipped

I doubt the wear would have been in his original bolt. At 125,000 PSI ultimate tensile strength the steel in the AN bolt would probably be far harder than the steel in the mount.
snipped

The tensile strength of an AN bolt has no bearing on how hard it is. Common AN bolts are actually more ductile than a grade 7 industrial bolt. The designer's intent is for the bolt to stretch, but not shatter, if it is subjected to an overstress.
Prove it to yourself. Subject both a comman grade 7 hardware bolt and a common AN bolt to a hand file. The file will show you which is harder. A harder bolt would wear better. However, all that will do is transfer the wear to the landing gear mount; not a good thing.
As has been previously mentioned, the landing gear socket bolts are loaded in shear, not tension (tensile strength). Another item critical to this problem is how snug the gear leg fits into the socket. If the fit is sloppy, the joint is more prone to move. Van's instructions SUCK here. They suggest using sandpaper to remove any high or tight spots. I spotted this right away. I purchased an adjustable "import" reamer ($54) from MSC for this job. Next I measured each gear leg and adjusted the reamer for a .001" clearance fit. I chucked the reamer up in a buddy's engine lathe. I placed a center cone in the tail stock of the lathe. The landing gear socket was placed between the reamer and the centering cone in the tail stock.
I turned the chuck of the lathe by hand and slowly reamed the socket, to a size .001" larger than the gear leg which was to go in it. Using this method, you will find that the only "tight" areas, are where the welds are placed. Vans vendor reams the tubes out prior to welding. The welding process causes localized distortion of the tube, causing fitment problems. If the vendor did a clean up ream after the welding, this would not be an issue.
I surmise that some of the builders do not consider how critical it is to maintain a close fit in this area. This leads them to get carried away with material removal from the socket, in an effort to get the gear leg to fit. I called all the other RV builders in my local EAA chapter (133). I let them know I had this tool. I then repeated this process for all the other local builders. The results were excellent for all 5 sets of gear legs done.
I realize that this doesn't help those who have finished this process, but I thought that I'd make everyone aware of it.
Charlie Kuss
 
ctbecker said:
Would it make sense to insert grease fittings in these locations?

Charlie Becker
N464CB 8A
Finishing
Click to expand...

Charlie
It sure wouldn't hurt, so long as the hole was drilled and tapped in the area between where the gear leg contacts the socket. It sure would reduce the amount of work to ensure that the joint was greased.
I think I might just use your suggestion.
Charlie Kuss
 
A couple of things.

A couple of things.

A Nylock of any type would work just fine with a light (interference) drive fit.
EXCEPT THAT IT IS ONLY RATED TO 250 DEGREES F.

Over tightening this installation just increases the chance of failure.

The bolt being .0005 larger than the holes (Not hole, holes).

A medium drive fit up to .0015 would work but be a little difficult with steel to steel.

No matter what you replace the AN bolt with, even if its not oversize, the NAS Bolt is better all the way around.

We have a threaded reamer that should work from the top of the nose gear if you can get in there with a nice 90 deg drill. (we have those too). Look at how much is obstructing it and see. Do not over speed the reamer slowly and carefully will get you best results.

We have 4 of the threaded reamers for the first oversize 5/16 Nas bolts in stock, they are M42 Cobalt made to Airbus Spec STD 236 with the exception of the drive style being 1/4-28 instead of the straight shaft for use in drills.
We have the ergular drive ones in regular and long.

Post 17 has some excellent info that should fix things for a long time.
Be advised, if you over ream on this situation you will say more than
Oh schtuff! So be real careful, it is a very good fix, but once things get too large you have very little you can do to repair.

If enough folks want the taper pins I may be able to get them and sell them piece by piece, brand new ones, at this point I don't know what the cost or lead time is.

We have no minimum order, there is a small order fee of $5.00 when order is less than $25.00 (book orders excluded).
 
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We are trying

FEI (for everones info)

Excerpt of part of my reply to Scotts PM

I did find some NAS6605-27Y and am waiting to confirm with my supplier as to whether they are still available. I should know this by Monday.

If the NAS6605-27Y's are still available, we would get them in a week to 10 days after confirmation of our order.

So one way or another, sooner or later, you should be able to fix that squeaky nose gear of yours.
 
GAHco said:
A couple of things.

A Nylock of any type would work just fine with a light (interference) drive fit.
Click to expand...

Sure it would work, if it wasn't sitting so close to the exhaust stacks. Hi-temp Nylon becomes liquid at 400 degrees. Even at 200, I doubt that it's hard enough to prevent a nut from backing out when it's being shaken by a castoring nosewheel.

My point is that a lot of guys who haven't yet experienced the problem will probably never experience it if they just replace that nylock nut with the correct hardware for a high-temperature application. I did, even after the problem had started, and I haven't had any further movement in four years.
 
Captain Avgas said:
snipped

I doubt the wear would have been in his original bolt. At 125,000 PSI ultimate tensile strength the steel in the AN bolt would probably be far harder than the steel in the mount.
Click to expand...

Well, I can tell you that the AN bolt that was in my plane was clearly worn after a few hundred hours. It took a couple hours to get it out, since there is no good way to tap against it. The gear leg is quite hard.

chaskuss said:
The tensile strength of an AN bolt has no bearing on how hard it is.
Click to expand...

This is not true, it has a direct correlation - this is precisely how one indirectly determines strength of steel alloys. See section 7 of this treatise:


http://www.calce.umd.edu/general/Facilities/Hardness_ad_.htm
 
Point well taken! Regarding original post#21 this thread.

jonbakerok said:
Sure it would work, if it wasn't sitting so close to the exhaust stacks. Hi-temp Nylon becomes liquid at 400 degrees. Even at 200, I doubt that it's hard enough to prevent a nut from backing out when it's being shaken by a castoring nosewheel.

My point is that a lot of guys who haven't yet experienced the problem will probably never experience it if they just replace that nylock nut with the correct hardware for a high-temperature application. I did, even after the problem had started, and I haven't had any further movement in four years.
Click to expand...

Thank you for pointing this out.

Ok I'm only up to just finishing my wings on my six and it its a tail dragger.

With The temps being higher, an AN363-524, MS20365-524C, MS21042-5 or L5, MS21043-5, MS21045-5, MS21046-5, NAS679A5 or -5, all of these should meet both the strength and temperature requirements to do well at holding whatever 5/16 bolt you decide to use for the repair.

I will revise my Nylock Post. (#21)
 
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AlexPeterson said:
Well, I can tell you that the AN bolt that was in my plane was clearly worn after a few hundred hours. It took a couple hours to get it out, since there is no good way to tap against it. The gear leg is quite hard.



This is not true, it has a direct correlation - this is precisely how one indirectly determines strength of steel alloys. See section 7 of this treatise:


http://www.calce.umd.edu/general/Facilities/Hardness_ad_.htm
Click to expand...
You are right. Also, hardened 4130 will range from 130 to 170 ksi tensile strength. I know it is not the intention of the fabricator to harden up the tubing but the welding process may create hardened zones due to the weld melt quenching too rapidly. A temper bead pass will mitigate some of the hardening but a lot of the welds are single pass and they really could benefit from a tempering heat treatment after the welding is completed. (These may go though that as I have no idea of the actual process used by the fabricator.) My point is simply that the bracket could easily be the same (or greater) hardness/strength as the bolt.

-mike
 
If this is a new installation.

If this is a new installation, and you have not drilled this hole to Vans Recommendations, then you may want to get the following items and do it the best way possible the first time.

We have the threaded reamer PPRT-.3105 and The Close Tolerance Higher Strength Bolt that matches the grip length of the AN5-20A called out.

If you already have reamers that its the hole size you want .3105"

The Standard diameter part # is NAS6605-27

For this important issue,

We have changed our package qty on these from 5 to two.

Orders placed over the Webstore that exceed $75.00 are eligible for free UPS ground shipping in the US.

So stop that Nose Gear from squeaking while it is still easy to get to.

hopefully you wont have to hear from it again.

If you need the Oversize, read the previous posts.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chaskuss

The tensile strength of an AN bolt has no bearing on how hard it is.



This is not true, it has a direct correlation - this is precisely how one indirectly determines strength of steel alloys. See section 7 of this treatise:


http://www.calce.umd.edu/general/Fa...ardness_ad_.htm
__________________
Alex Peterson
RV6A N66AP 800+ hours
Maple Grove, MN


Alex,
I stand corrected. Great link you provided. I meant that one should not ASSume that because the tensile strength of an AN bolt is higher than an industrial bolt or automotive bolt, than you can assume it has a greater surface hardness. Since AN bolts are intended to be ductile (so they stretch, rather than fail catostrophically) they may well be softer on the surface than certain automotive heat treated bolts.
The bolt's alloy & any heat treating also factor's into both it's strength and surface hardness.
Charlie Kuss
 
Today with the help of a good friend I fixed the nose gear creaking problem. I used a 1st oversize threaded reamer that fit on a 90 deg drill to clean up the enlarged hole in the engine mount. We debated about doing it as an assembly or individually. Because we couldn't guarantee that the parts would stay lined up and hold everything in place properly, we did the mount and gear leg separately. After that we put the bolt in the freezer for 25 minutes or so. Then I proceeded to install the NAS6605-28X from the inside, just like the original bolt. It took some tapping with the hammer and eventually rivet gun to get the bolt in there but it went right in. Nice and tight fit.

The original bolt measured .3065" diameter! And I guess I used a regular 5/16 drill to dril it originally. The current setup has essentially no tolerance.

The only huccup is that the only bolt I could find was a -28X length. That is a little too long becuase it took 5 washers to get the nut on properly (1 under head and 4 under nut). I know this is more than the 3 washer rule however the bolt is loaded primarily in shear. And the bolt isn't coming out becuase it took some force to get it in there. Maybe if I find a -26 bolt I can replace it someday. But for now my gear is working great.

Thanks to Tom @ GAHco for theirexcellent service and tools.
 
We will look for More Bolts

Scott Will said:
Today with the help of a good friend I fixed the nose gear creaking problem. I used a 1st oversize threaded reamer that fit on a 90 deg drill to clean up the enlarged hole in the engine mount. We debated about doing it as an assembly or individually. Because we couldn't guarantee that the parts would stay lined up and hold everything in place properly, we did the mount and gear leg separately. After that we put the bolt in the freezer for 25 minutes or so. Then I proceeded to install the NAS6605-28X from the inside, just like the original bolt. It took some tapping with the hammer and eventually rivet gun to get the bolt in there but it went right in. Nice and tight fit.

The original bolt measured .3065" diameter! And I guess I used a regular 5/16 drill to dril it originally. The current setup has essentially no tolerance.

The only huccup is that the only bolt I could find was a -28X length. That is a little too long becuase it took 5 washers to get the nut on properly (1 under head and 4 under nut). I know this is more than the 3 washer rule however the bolt is loaded primarily in shear. And the bolt isn't coming out becuase it took some force to get it in there. Maybe if I find a -26 bolt I can replace it someday. But for now my gear is working great.

Thanks to Tom @ GAHco for theirexcellent service and tools.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the compliment Scott, we will be looking for the shorter bolts based on your input.

I will post what I find.

I have a feeling that many people will need to do this repair on their Nose Wheel RV's.

You may want to offer your used once reamer for sale, 20 years from now if you have to get a bigger bolt that one wont help anymore anyway.

Maybe you could donate it to your local EAA chapter and get a deduction for it, after all you will receive no other benefit from that reamer, unless the mains are held in the same way. If thats the case you may want to just keep it.

Everyone else reading this, don't forget if you have a good gear hole and just need a better, closer tolerance bolt, we have the NAS 6605 in standard diameters too.
 
Scott Will said:
Today with the help of a good friend I fixed the nose gear creaking problem. I used a 1st oversize threaded reamer that fit on a 90 deg drill to clean up the enlarged hole in the engine mount. We debated about doing it as an assembly or individually. Because we couldn't guarantee that the parts would stay lined up and hold everything in place properly, we did the mount and gear leg separately. After that we put the bolt in the freezer for 25 minutes or so. Then I proceeded to install the NAS6605-28X from the inside, just like the original bolt. It took some tapping with the hammer and eventually rivet gun to get the bolt in there but it went right in. Nice and tight fit.

The original bolt measured .3065" diameter! And I guess I used a regular 5/16 drill to dril it originally. The current setup has essentially no tolerance.

The only huccup is that the only bolt I could find was a -28X length. That is a little too long becuase it took 5 washers to get the nut on properly (1 under head and 4 under nut). I know this is more than the 3 washer rule however the bolt is loaded primarily in shear. And the bolt isn't coming out becuase it took some force to get it in there. Maybe if I find a -26 bolt I can replace it someday. But for now my gear is working great.

Thanks to Tom @ GAHco for theirexcellent service and tools.
Click to expand...
I KNOW that I need to do this to my RV-6A also. A writeup with photos would be nice, unless it is essentially the same as the one on the Matronics wiki.
 
will try to post some pics

I will try to post some pics but it is pretty simple once you see the tool involved.

Was kinda neat to see the plane without the nose gear! Almost had a -7 for a while.

- Scott
 
Thanks!

Thanks for the update. I'm curious if the mains could also use some of the same attention to detail...? I'm referencing the threaded reamer and bolt scenario.
 
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Ohhh yeah, I'd get a reamer for a 5/16 bolt. It doesn't have to have a threaded end. I'd just use a straight one if I were building initially. I had to use one to fit on a 90 deg drill - that has a 1/4-28 attachment. Maybe use the same reamer that you'd use on the rear spar?
 
Yepper

Yes, for sure the same reamer. I was just thinking about longevity for the wear on this position using the threaded reamer and bolt set-up. :cool:
 
Scott Will said:

The only hiccup is that the only bolt I could find was a -28X length. That is a little too long because it took 5 washers to get the nut on properly (1 under head and 4 under nut). I know this is more than the 3 washer rule however the bolt is loaded primarily in shear. And the bolt isn't coming out because it took some force to get it in there. Maybe if I find a -26 bolt I can replace it someday. But for now my gear is working great.

Thanks to Tom @ GAHco for their excellent service and tools.
Click to expand...

I have been able to find Some first oversize bolts that will be 3 washers shorter.
I will post part #'s, and prices, tomorrow.

gotta go din din is waiting!
 
In my case....

In my case, the hole has previously been drilled out to 3/8"... :mad:
But I still want to do the best I can.

I'm assuming NAS6606-26 bolt and PPR-.3730 reamer unless I need to oversize??
 
Mains

Scott Will said:
Ohhh yeah, I'd get a reamer for a 5/16 bolt. It doesn't have to have a threaded end. I'd just use a straight one if I were building initially. I had to use one to fit on a 90 deg drill - that has a 1/4-28 attachment. Maybe use the same reamer that you'd use on the rear spar?
Click to expand...

This thread makes me really think hard about the bolt and fitting of the main gear too. There's much more of a load in this area. (with main wheel shimmy etc...) I would think a look here could not hurt. Anyone seen wear in this area?
 
3/8" bolt and option?

GrayHawk said:
In my case, the hole has previously been drilled out to 3/8"... :mad:
But I still want to do the best I can.

I'm assuming NAS6606-26 bolt and PPR-.3730 reamer unless I need to oversize??
Click to expand...

I think you did pretty well. Assuming the OD of the outer tube is 1.5"

That bolt has a 1.625 grip, that allows for 1.5" OD tubing plus 2 x 1/16" washers.

You could go with a -25 and the washer under the nut would sit in the transition area of the bolt, which is perfectly fine.

You could also use the NAS6206 with a low height nut like the MS21042L6 or NAS679A6.

If you need the oversize I would need to find that for you.
 
The optimimum length NG repair bolt.

GAHco said:
I have been able to find Some first oversize bolts that will be 3 washers shorter.
I will post part #'s, and prices, tomorrow.
Click to expand...

The NAS6605-25X will show up as available for sale on Sunday 6/3/06 :)

The parts will be arriving to us about 6/14/06 :cool:

This should work nicely for a 1+1/2 tube and one washer under the head and the nut.

If you need one sooner I have the NAS6605-24X in stock, No or Thin washer under the head and a regular washer under the nut. :rolleyes:


Have the good weekend!
 
Hey Tom - Just wanted to say thanks for participating in these forums and spreading some of your knowledge around. I know I've learned a whole lot about bolts just from reading this thread. Oh, I also got my special #4 CS washers and they are great. :)

cheers,
mcb
 
You are welcome.

mburch said:
Hey Tom - Just wanted to say thanks for participating in these forums and spreading some of your knowledge around. I know I've learned a whole lot about bolts just from reading this thread. Oh, I also got my special #4 CS washers and they are great. :)

cheers,
mcb
Click to expand...

You are welcome, I am glad to be a part of "Helping Aviation Stay Together" as one of our logos denotes.

I like sharing what I have learned, the more knowledge shared, the shorter and less expensive the learning curve for all of us. That is why I love this forum, we all get to learn, and we get to have a good time while we are.

As for the #4CSW,SS SH, they sure did turn out real nice, I have sold about the same amount as people who said that they would buy them on the original poll.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=14376

If anyone needs them I have 22,800 left, and they are eager to go flying while holding on your fairings, all while looking nice and shiny! :)
 
LifeofReiley said:
This thread makes me really think hard about the bolt and fitting of the main gear too. There's much more of a load in this area. (with main wheel shimmy etc...) I would think a look here could not hurt. Anyone seen wear in this area?
Click to expand...


Darrell, undoubtedly many builders have slop in the main gear .....and for the same reason (drilling instead of reaming the gear mount hole). Even a very small amount of slop at the bolt will result in quite a lot of movement at the wheel. Most pilots probably don't even know about it because you really have to remove the weight from the wheel to determine the extent of the problem.

If I was experiencing any shimmy in any wheel, I'd take the weight off that wheel, and check for movement at the mount.

Incidentally, Tom Brink is providing a REAL service here. Good on you Tom.
 
Last edited:
Been on the road, this may help some more.

Captain Avgas said:
Darrell, undoubtedly many builders have slop in the main gear .....and for the same reason (drilling instead of reaming the gear mount hole). Even a very small amount of slop at the bolt will result in quite a lot of movement at the wheel. Most pilots probably don't even know about it because you really have to remove the weight from the wheel to determine the extent of the problem.

If I was experiencing any shimmy in any wheel, I'd take the weight off that wheel, and check for movement at the mount.
Click to expand...

GAHco ran into a good deal on some second oversize bolts NAS6605-27Y, then they accidentally sent us a double batch. We called them and they gave us a good deal on them so we are not sending them back.

I will be adjusting the price on them, and making a special promotion by giving you a free bolt when you order the reamer from us.

I will post the details later once I set it up with my Webstore admin for the promotions. Be looking for "Don't Wiggle your Nose (Gear)"
 
GAHco said:
GAHco ran into a good deal on some second oversize bolts NAS6605-27Y, then they accidentally sent us a double batch. We called them and they gave us a good deal on them so we are not sending them back.

I will be adjusting the price on them, and making a special promotion by giving you a free bolt when you order the reamer from us.

I will post the details later once I set it up with my Webstore admin for the promotions. Be looking for "Don't Wiggle your Nose (Gear)"
Click to expand...
I want to add all 3 gear legs to my next condition inspection (have only done the nose gear so far); so will be looking or this 'special'. Remember though, the nose gear hole on my plane has already been drilled to 3/8".
 
I want to REAM something...

I have read the various threads on cylindrical reaming for NAS bolts or taper reaming for AN386 pins and have come to the conclusion that there are variations in outside diameter of the landing gear trunion tubes across the RV line..

My 2005 vintage RV7A main gear trunion tubes are 1-3/4" in diameter. I have seen many posts about 1-5/8" grip length bolts and in some cases, 1-1/2" diameter main gear tubes (confined to RV6 maybe?). For me personally, it is not an issue since I have identified what I need for my mains, but I would emplore each of you to check your own parts before ordering a reportedly "perfect bolt length" noted here.

I'd sure like to order all three bolts for my project, but I don't have the engine mount yet, and I don't trust the revision status of an answer I would get by asking here.
 
Now I REALLY want to ream something..

Not a happy camper at the moment. Have spent the last 4 evenings fighting with a main gear leg and the AN386 ream. I am hardly new to machining, so this difficulty was not expected on my part. I had made about 3/8" progress out of 1-1/2" needed in the span of maybe 8 hrs.

The ream would not properly cut the gear leg. I never could get it to curl a chip (even though it did fine when tested on the trunnion tube). It took some unusual pressure to get it just to scrape fillings. I was down to using my small mill to create pressure by cranking the knee up until the ream pressed against the quill and then kept cranking to add pressure. Multiple times I looked at the ream with a loupe only to find it was OK, not dull. Feels sharp, looks sharp. Raises a burr on my fingernail.

Finally, I started jerking around with lubricant changes to see if something would make it cut. On one instance of heading towards low lube (which was comparitively better, but still bad) it locked and I snapped the ream. This is by hand, by the way. 18" cheater bar on the socket.

The leg material is tough (medium hard 41xx or 43xx maybe?) but I am a stubborn sort, so I am determined to get these dang taper pins in. Even if I have to get the legs EDM'ed.

The PITA part of this is I need to move the fuse to my new house in 3 weeks. I REALLY wanted this thing on its own 2 legs for that trip.

1363747807489b872e6ea81.jpg
 
I guess I need to go a different route.

2nd $60 reamer from ACS after 1 hrs use. Never rolled a single chip. I bought this one on the assumption that I had mysteriously dulled the first one but wouldn't admit it in my own mind. I think the first reamer was OK since this one acted the same during the time it stayed in one piece. With lots of pressure I was able to progress about 1/32" over that hr of work before it snapped.

29969527448a4b9f7b8b51.jpg


At the moment, I don't know what I am going to do. The gear is useless unless the operation is finished because the hole is a geometric disaster since it is oversized and 1/4 tapered. I guess a look at "the list" is in order. :(

If anyone has a lead for a #3 B&S spiral flute cobalt chucking reamer, please let me know. I have not been able to find one and I think thats what it will take.
 
Grinding compound?

An idea that comes to mind is packing the flutes of a steel reamer with valve grinding compound. Crank up the speed a bit and perhaps even spin the reamer in reverse. Likely have to add compound many times before you're done.

I've cut holes in glass with this method, using a steel tube as a bit and adding compound as needed.

Might work, might not. For sure, the reamer becomes an expendable part, but then you've already got experience in that. ;)

Best luck.
 
I had same problem with tapered reamer

Bill,
I was going to use taper pins from the start and had the same problem with the first gear I tried it on. I ended up replacing with a gear from someone converting from a nosegear to a taildragger. I have a new spare left gear weldment and leg from a 9A (Not sure if same as 7A) that has a 3/8 reamed hole (was not drilled) and close tolerance bolt from GAHco. If you are interested send me a pm. I ended up reaming the remaining gear for bolts and am very pleased with the results.
 
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