What's the value of a logbook?

Background...

I've owned/flown/built RVs for 20 years. I recently purchased a damaged RV-6 to repair. The engine was involved in a wood-prop strike and roll-over. It turns and I'm working on getting it dialed.

The seller wasn't the owner (deceased) and at the time of sale he couldn't find the logbooks, so I gave him a fairly low-ball offer, cause he wasn't getting many bites, and it assumed no-logbooks. For that reason, my purchase and sale agreement purposely did not include anything about paperwork, as that would have been contentious.

So "mysteriously" the logbooks appear, he wants $2,000 for them. He claims the engine's last log entry has ~1100 tach hours. So I'm looking at 900 TBO. My last O-320 is still running strong at 2300hrs, but 2000hrs is "the gold standard" for overhaul. My math shows for a $12,000 overhaul every 2000hrs, I still have $5000 of theoretical tach-hour "value" left in that plane.

Should I pay?

I wouldn't.

Experimental (and type certificated not used for hire) are not bound to a engine manufacturers TBO time.
The overhaul decision then is made based on condition. You can make the decision without knowing the exact total time on the engine.

No

I vote no

You could tear it down and see for yourself for less than that
It's like actual flying time vs 'Parker pen time'

Reality is better than an unknown person's logbook

FWIW ...

I wouldn't pay the ransom. The mere fact that he's seeking to charge that much in the circumstances would make me really wonder whether the information therein was reliable at all.

Me, I'd pay $10 to to the FAA to get the copy of the Airworthiness and Registration files (on a CD). With that and the letter of operating limitations, you can probably cover all the bases.

As to the engine, I get the idea from the OP that the engine had a prop strike and you need to not only check the runout but to also follow the Lycoming service bulletin.

If it were mine, I wouldn't rely much on recorded times in the logbook to project life of the engine. If the dowel pin and the runout are okay, I'd probably roll the dice on the bottom end (otherwise, split the case and do as necessary). But given the time you have been told, I would pull the cylinders and at the very least check the valves seats & guides and go with new rings.

Dan

Take that $2500 and apply it toward engine disassembly and inspection. Far more valuable than a log book at this point.

Document the inspection, apply an estimate as to number of hours and start a new log. Considering you are starting out with a wrecked airplane I would assume if you try to sell is after repair people will be more interested in what they now have, not what was before the wreck.

Carl

It often comes as a shock to many - but the FAA does not require logbooks! If you wish to keep them rather than all the receipts in a shoebox, your call.

Yeah... thanks all, I was headed the same way. But I wanted hear some group consensus.

He's just trying to make up the difference between what he wanted and your low-ball offer. Would your offer have been $2500 higher if you knew it had the logbooks, and you knew the engine time?

You could try low-balling again. Tell him you'll give him $500 tops and if not you can work without them. If just comes down to whether you think there's any value in having them or not.

Bill of Sale

The most important papers are the Bill of Sale records trail so you can register it. As Dan wrote, get the FAA copy of the records and make new logbooks after the repairs. I had to work an owner who bought a RV with no papers and we had to go back and establish total time, when the phase 1 was flown off and the OPS limitations.

Log books

My thoughts. You bought THE AIRCRAFT, not the logbooks for a good price. The logbooks are an implied part of that purchase and if ever found, they should follow the aircraft, (because its reasonable and customary nationwide that logbooks are a part of any aircraft purchase). If the issue can't be resolved in a gentlemanly sort of way I'd bet a letter from an attorney would bring them to you with no additional funds changing hands.

The logs won't have any value to anyone else, unless you sell the plane. So he probably will be willing to negotiate a better price.

Dave

Books

If you done the work yourself you could recertify the crank with yellow tag if its good and buy all the parts to reassemble for that price and start a new log book.
Bob

I'd offer him maybe 500, take it or leave it. They're of no value to him, nor anyone else, so if he doesn't take it, he gets nothing, ever. If he takes it, he's 500 bucks better off than he was.

The only variable here is how little (not how much) to offer him...a bit of game theory

Complete Logs

Complete logs add value to any plane/engine, but really only when it comes time to sell. Otherwise, you really have no way of knowing anything about the history of the engine. Even if you rebuild it, some buyers down the road would like to know if the engine has 2000 hrs TT or 10,000 hrs TT. As Dave mentioned above, you are the only person that holds any value in the logs. I'd make him an offer. If he doesn't take it, he's got nothing but some worthless paper so anything he gets is better than nothing at all.

If this was a rudder or canopy or seat-----------I would expect the seller to provide it to you as it is an obvious part of the aircraft, not hold it for "ransom".

DonFromTX said:

It often comes as a shock to many - but the FAA does not require logbooks! If you wish to keep them rather than all the receipts in a shoebox, your call.

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Even though technically, "logbooks" are not required, as such, maintenance records are, and logbooks are the simplest way of keeping these records.
Maintenance records are required for entries such as Airworthiness sign-off, Phase I sign-off, condition inspections, ELT inspections, transponder inspections, etc.
These records must be made available to the FAA within a reasonable time if requested.

My view

You didn't low-ball him because there were no logs. You negotiated a price based on an unverifiable condition of the aircraft. Logs may have helped verify the condition (but obviously aren't definitive in and of themselves.) So perhaps the logs would have substantiated a better condition than you had to assume without them. Maybe not. Whatever.

Since the time you purchased the aircraft, you have now had an opportunity to dig in with your own hands, tools, skills, and knowledge, and verify the aircraft condition. Maybe it's better than what you assumed at the time of purchase, maybe it's worse. Again, whatever, what's done is done. But now the existence or sudden appearance of the logs does you absolutely no additional good. You've already done the work (at the expense of your time and trouble), to verify things that might have been in the logs. Therefore, the value of the logs to you now is absolutely zero. Or maybe $20, which is what new blank logbooks might cost.

If you want to be a nice guy, offer him a hundred bucks (or 500, or whatever your particular financial situation warrants), but solely as a gesture of goodwill. Know that you will get nothing nothing in return for having them, though. And the seller's not exactly being "nice" by holding them ransom for that amount of money either.

Agree with Kurt.

Actually the logbooks "belong" to the aircraft, not the owner.

He sold low because he could not find them. Just because they "turned up" later, should not justify an extra charge.

One day you will want to sell the airplane. If you don't have the engine logs you're going to significantly reduce the number of interested buyers and generate low ball offers.

I' for one, would just not buy a plane if any of the engine, airframe, or prop logs were missing.

Not knowing what you paid it is difficult to put a dollar value on the logs.

Also is the prior owner being a jerk or just trying to get full value for the project given what you paid..

In my opinion you NEED those logbooks..

There is only one person in the world who has a need/want for those books and you are him. Offer $200 (or whatever they are worth to you) and prepare to walk. If he doesn't take your $200, he'll end up with nothing.

Mel said:

Even though technically, "logbooks" are not required, as such, maintenance records are, and logbooks are the simplest way of keeping these records.
Maintenance records are required for entries such as Airworthiness sign-off, Phase I sign-off, condition inspections, ELT inspections, transponder inspections, etc.
These records must be made available to the FAA within a reasonable time if requested.

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If it is a major rebuild, could he just re-apply for a new airworthiness and re-do the Phase I flying time?

Essentially reset the airframe time to zero...

az_gila said:

If it is a major rebuild, could he just re-apply for a new airworthiness and re-do the Phase I flying time?

Essentially reset the airframe time to zero...

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Not technically. Once an aircraft has been issued an Airworthiness Certificate it stays with the aircraft until scrapped or similar. To receive a new airworthiness certificate you would have to have logs documenting that you, or a group of amateurs, built more than 51% of the aircraft. As an example, re-assembling various pieces from multiple scrapped aircraft would not really count as an amateur-built aircraft. There is a checklist on the FAA website for aircraft not on the 51% list that you could work through to see if you have performed 51% of the tasks to qualify for an amateur-built aircraft.

BTW, whomever mentioned that logbooks are technically not needed-----yes, perhaps. But just like your pilot logbook, there are various items that are required to be performed and a record kept, such as Phase I, aerobatic maneuvers performed, Condition Inspections, ELT, transponder and pitot-static checks (if appropriate), etc. It is the norm to keep those in logbooks.

I just inspected an RV-8 this past week that had been flying for many years and had approximately 150 hours on it. The logbook was a "notebook" much like one would use in school, by itself not really a problem, just not a best practice. In that "notebook" there was never any record of Phase I being completed, no aerobatic maneuvers signed off, the CI was recorded as "annual" (the only words used) with a date and no certificate number. The owner/builder did not hold a repairman's certificate or A&P rating.

I know we have a growing number of owners on this board that are second and third owners, and have not been part of the building process. You may not be aware that there are different requirements for paperwork associated with amateur-built aircraft as opposed to the Certified aircraft in which you probably learned to fly. Take a look at your Airworthiness Certificate (which is also supposed to be in the aircraft and displayed) and you will notice that it is a SPECIAL AIRWORTHINESS Certificate, as opposed to a STANDARD AIRWORTHINESS certificate, and it clearly states that the Operating Limitations are a part of the Certificate. Please verify your Operating Limitations are in your aircraft, as required, and that the appropriate verbiage for various inspections are in your aircraft logbooks IAW your limitations. Usually the verbiage is spelled out in the Limitations.

If you don't have your Limitations, or can't find them, usually a call to the FAA in OKC will get you a copy.

If you are unsure, please don't hesitate to ask on this Forum or contact me directly.

Vic

Actually he could do a recurrent airworthiness.

Speaking of finding things not noticed for years, I had a request to do an amended airworthiness to bring op lims up to date and add aerobatics on an RV-3 that had been flying since 1984.
It had condition inspections signed off every year. One thing that had been missed on every condition inspection was that the airworthiness certificate expired in 1985.

FYI... I've already talked to the FSDO. I'm covered. It's got a valid airworthiness & registration (never de-registered), all I need to do is find an A&P that will work with me to ensure it is in a condition to fly again (annual conditional inspection). We'll have to redo or verify all the ADs/SBs, but probably not a bad thing either.

-Bruce

Logbooks

I agree on the lowball offer, only $100 bucks. What value are the logs without the aircraft?

Bruce,
Is the guy holding the logs ransom a user of my site here? You can PM me the username if you wish. I'll unlock his account if he gives you a $2000 discount on your logbooks...
v/r,
dr

Mel said:

It had condition inspections signed off every year. One thing that had been missed on every condition inspection was that the airworthiness certificate expired in 1985.

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I don't think my A/W certificate has any expiration date on it.??

BobTurner said:

I don't think my A/W certificate has any expiration date on it.??

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Most current airworthiness certificates have an "unlimited" expiry.

Years ago it was not unusual to issue the A/W for phase I only with a one year expiration. It is still done under certain circumstances, but it is no longer common.

DeltaRomeo said:

Bruce,
Is the guy holding the logs ransom a user of my site here? You can PM me the username if you wish. I'll unlock his account if he gives you a $2000 discount on your logbooks...
v/r,
dr

Click to expand...

non-pilot... I feel kinda bad, I think he thought he had additional income and he feels slighted. Really just doesn't understand what he was selling, I honestly don't think i took advantage, I have assume a ton of risk. Engine could easily be trash inside, I could lose money and a ton of time on this deal.

I know all too well how to make a million in aviation...

[ed. Roger copy non-pilot, non-VAF user. Thanks for the update, Bruce. v/r,dr]

BobTurner said:

I don't think my A/W certificate has any expiration date on it.??

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It does not... but insurance companies will send in the de-registration when they total an aircraft. I was merely stating it was not de-registered.

Surprise ending...

You all are going eat this up...

The sheriff scanned the logbooks after the accident

OH, that is just sweeeet

Assume you now have copies?

Mike S said:

Assume you now have copies?

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Need to send NTSB the bill of sale, but should have it soon.

N395V said:

I' for one, would just not buy a plane if any of the engine, airframe, or prop logs were missing.

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I can certainly understand your position and wouldn't necessarily disagree. However....

I have purchased one aircraft without logs (owner died and estate could not locate) , and another with partial logs on the engine.
I inspected accordingly, and paid accordingly.

The first, with no logs, I owned for 10 years, flew for 600 hours, and sold for double what I paid. That paid for training, gas, maintenance, upgrades, etc... and I essentially owned and flew 600 hours in that airplane for free. Last I knew, it was still being flown. That is a hard bargain to beat.

The second, estimated engine time, I still own. I knew it would need a new or rebuilt engine and paid accordingly. I flew it for 9 years, 200 hours, before it needed a rebuild. Just got it out of restoration with a fresh engine. I wouldn't even consider selling it for double what I paid it for, maybe not triple (It's my all time favorite airplane, ever..., and it isn't an RV (Shame !). In fairness, I knew the history of this airplane through mutual connections and word of mouth, so this might not be the best example, but just part of managing the risk.

Both deals worked out well for me, but again, I would certainly understand if someone didn't want to assume the risk. I managed the risk just like Bruce is doing.

Sounds like this story is turning out great for you Bruce!

I have nothing more to add about the negotiating for the log books, if in fact the local sheriff has copies of the logs. I would, however, feel obligated to make a donation to the Sheriff's Fund or whatever it is called where you live. In my county the fund is used for all sorts of relief and volunteer activities that benefit the county. The prop strike is another matter that needs addressing. The Lycoming take on a prop strike, no matter how slight, a tear down inspection is required. Remember there are woodruff keys, dowel pins, and plastic gears in the mags that came to a sudden stop and need to be replaced. I have seen very good airplanes for sale at a good price that didn't sale because the owner couldn't adequately explain a new or changed prop on the engine. Forged logbooks, or safety of flight entries omitted, ostensibly to maintain resell value, is not a discussion you want to have with your local FSDO. And if I intended to do that I would hope I would have the presence of mind not to leave a paper trail on a very popular forum. Additionally, if the seller does not get his $2000 bounty for the log books, what is to keep him from calling the Feds and ratting you out? Maybe I just expect the worst in sales deals that are continuous. Just my opinion. Dan from Reno

guccidude1 said:

The prop strike is another matter that needs addressing.[snip]

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I have a whole nother thread on this... taken into advisement. This ain't my first prop strike rodeo. In fact it's like my 5th

BTW... I have the CD now. And it's all good.

BruceMe said:

I have a whole nother thread on this... taken into advisement. This ain't my first prop strike rodeo. In fact it's like my 5th

BTW... I have the CD now. And it's all good.

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Now you can really negotiate.


I just sit here laughing out loud at the irony. Priceless!

guccidude1 said:

Additionally, if the seller does not get his $2000 bounty for the log books, what is to keep him from calling the Feds and ratting you out? Maybe I just expect the worst in sales deals that are continuous. Just my opinion. Dan from Reno

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ratting what out? the only thing that needs to be in a log book is a current condition inspection, elt inspection, and transponder inspection. thats it. you start a new log book, stating total time un-unknow, TMSO un-know, do the inspections and the FSDO is happy.

bob burns
N82RB RV-4

Report him to the FBI and FAA for withholding Aircraft Federal Records that belong to the aircraft. Not Him!

I really just want

to move on, I have a ton of project ahead of me.