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Skidded turn stalls in landing pattern

donaziza

Well Known Member
Somewhere here in the forum, is another post and video on a guy doing skidded turn stalls (with his instructor), like what one might do when turning base and final for a landing. So-o-o-o-o-o-o, I had to go out and practice this, but at 7000 FT vs 300 FT. Mine is an RV 8. I first did them clean at about 71 KTS, and then dirty at about 64 KTS. I put in about a 25 degree bank angle and kicked tons of rudder. I'm happy to report that at least with "my" 8, both dirty and clean, I got a whole lot of stall buffeting with no tendency to roll upside down.

SO---I'm glad for that guy's video, and checked my plane out for itself. BUT---ya'll who read this---do go out and practice in your own planes, just to be sure. I got this demonstrated to me, when I was learning how to fly in a T-34. You were on your back so fast, it wasn't even funny.:eek:

Blue side up on finals.:eek:
 
I am missing something here, why are you doing this and recommending others do it?

There is a proper way to safely fly an airplane in the pattern, this is not it.

It would be better to practice doing it right rather than demonstrating how badly you can screw up before you kill yourself.

If the approach is messed up, go around and get it right, do not even think about wracking it up, skidding it, even if it can be done at altitude.

(first airplane I flew was T-34 in military flight school long time ago, emphasis was keep the ball centered, we were never demoed how far it can be wracked up before it flips inverted.
Sounds like a fun stunt, but rather useless as otherwise)
 
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Im sort of stuck on this one. I have so little flight experience (120 hours) that I can see both sides. I understand that in the video referenced, the instructor pilot lost 800' when he went over. Anywhere in the pattern, he was dead. No amount of spin recovery training can change that.

I will be flying my 9. The "book" says no aerobatics and I am fine with that. I can see that if I ever got in a situation where I was going over if would be less stress to follow through rather than fight it. At least I hope that is how it works.

I have known too many high time pilots that are gone from this very thing. I sure see the advantage of knowing how to recover from a spin and how to stay out of it in the first place. I think once I am flying I will go up with an aerobatic instructor just to get the feelings so I know when I am getting too close.
 
Yea ... I just saw the video again right in time for a BFR. We went up in a Super D and did some of these; it took a lot of input to get it to break ... and boy it felt strange cross-contolling so much!
 
I am missing something here, why are you doing this and recommending others do it?

There is a proper way to safely fly an airplane in the pattern, this is not it.

It would be better to practice doing it right rather than demonstrating how badly you can screw up before you kill yourself.

If the approach is messed up, go around and get it right, do not even think about wracking it up, skidding it, even if it can be done at altitude.

(first airplane I flew was T-34 in military flight school long time ago, emphasis was keep the ball centered, we were never demoed how far it can be wracked up before it flips inverted.
Sounds like a fun stunt, but rather useless as otherwise)

Time for a stickectomy
 
I am missing something here, why are you doing this and recommending others do it?

There is a proper way to safely fly an airplane in the pattern, this is not it.

It would be better to practice doing it right rather than demonstrating how badly you can screw up before you kill yourself.

If the approach is messed up, go around and get it right, do not even think about wracking it up, skidding it, even if it can be done at altitude.

Guess they shouldn't teach any kind of stalls then. And spins shouldn't be taught either. Just teach to fly the C-172 like an airliner. Then when that fresh-air machine up front spits a con rod through the case and you have one chance to make a landing in a clear spot and you CAN'T go around... You get the picture. Practice up high and KNOW what to expect!

-Marc
 
I understand that in the video referenced, the instructor pilot lost 800' when he went over. Anywhere in the pattern, he was dead. No amount of spin recovery training can change that.

Actually, according to the visible altimeter it was 600', and he could have recovered in under 500' if he'd actually allowed the airplane to snap around to one full turn before pulling out, rather than recovering the spin inverted and barrel rolling out. Anyone who has a fair bit of spin experience will know the reason for this. This is true, but academic. You say no amount of spin recovery training (and I assume you mean skill as well) can change that, but it's not necessarily true. Of course, anyone with that level of skill and awareness of the degree of rotation performed after stall/spinning their airplane on base to final will not be accidentally stalling the airplane in the pattern in the first place.
 
I am missing something here, why are you doing this and recommending others do it?

There is a proper way to safely fly an airplane in the pattern, this is not it.

It would be better to practice doing it right rather than demonstrating how badly you can screw up before you kill yourself.

If the approach is messed up, go around and get it right, do not even think about wracking it up, skidding it, even if it can be done at altitude.

(first airplane I flew was T-34 in military flight school long time ago, emphasis was keep the ball centered, we were never demoed how far it can be wracked up before it flips inverted.
Sounds like a fun stunt, but rather useless as otherwise)

And you were an airline pilot?? You never practiced stalls in the sim, so you wouldn't do it for real??
 
Training

I think the point here is training and understanding the limits of your plane will hopefully help to recognize or prevent from getting into these dangerous situations. Isn’t that why we train. Wether it’s stall recovery, prevention or emergency procedures, we all benefit from the knowledge we gain through practice.

I for one have not trained for these stalls with an experienced instructor and would like to. If the pilots that died from this had trained, I would venture to say it would have been a different outcome as they would have known what not to do in the first place.
 
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Am 79, flying since 18, and still alive....
How many times does one have to stall an airplane or induce an unusual attitude to know it can kill you?
 
And you were an airline pilot?? You never practiced stalls in the sim, so you wouldn't do it for real??

Am 79, flying since 18, and still alive....
How many times does one have to stall an airplane or induce an unusual attitude to know it can kill you?

David. You’re an experienced pilot and know what not to do. We have all been trained in power on and power off stalls and recovery. How many of us have been trained in skidding, slipping, accelerated, stalls? Obviously the people that died from these were most likely not and did not know their enemy. Knowledge is power. We can all make bad decisions from lack of training.
 
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experience

David, I will have to respectfully disagree with you. I am coming up on eligibility for my 50 year FAA pin as well.... but I practice all the maneuvers and mistakes at a safe altitude when training. This knowledge has gotten me out of difficult spots more than once. I am glad you are alive as well. There is always room for divergent opinions in my world Cheers.
 
Am 79, flying since 18, and still alive....
How many times does one have to stall an airplane or induce an unusual attitude to know it can kill you?

You are missing the point. Those pilots with a high level of awareness, knowledge, practical experience, comfort, and skill within the FULL range of the envelope are the ones who are diminishing their likelihood of ever needing to utilize this skill. Those who lack this experience and who display an exaggerated level of trepidation in this area are the ones more at risk. Plus, the OP is just talking about going to altitude and spinning the airplane as a demo. Not sure what you find so controversial about that. Are you an advocate of abstinence education and stall avoidance only training? ;)
 
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All good stuff to think about, whatever works, works.

I just feel no one would attempt this in transport airplane because end would not be nice, why not fly same in small airplane?

I am concern about such loads on home built structure. How does one know the tail will not leave? To do it over and over for whatever reason doesn?t work with me.

Flying safe is not difficult, know limits of your self, the airplane and don?t do dumb things.

I had about 30 hours total time when stalled T-34 on top of loop during a progress check ride, will never forget it. Don?t let yourself get into such situations is what I learned.
The outcome was a success nevertheless, for lack of knowing what to do, let go of stick and trusty T-34 righted itself, I grabbed stick and recovered, check airman said great recovery!! Little did he know. :)

My point is not to belittle practice, but to disagree with philosophy of seeing what you could get away with at pattern altitude.
 
So-o-o-o-o-o-o, I had to go out and practice this, but at 7000 FT vs 300 FT. Mine is an RV 8. I first did them clean at about 71 KTS, and then dirty at about 64 KTS. I put in about a 25 degree bank angle and kicked tons of rudder. I'm happy to report that at least with "my" 8, both dirty and clean, I got a whole lot of stall buffeting with no tendency to roll upside down.

SO---I'm glad for that guy's video, and checked my plane out for itself. BUT---ya'll who read this---do go out and practice in your own planes, just to be sure. I got this demonstrated to me, when I was learning how to fly in a T-34. You were on your back so fast, it wasn't even funny.:eek:

Blue side up on finals.:eek:

I too learned these in the T-34. The instructors weren't too crazy about demoing them but it taught me a valuable lesson as a student. There is a tendency for students to be afraid to roll in enough bank when turning final and instead try to use rudder to make the turn to final. This can lead to a cross controlled stall low and slow.

Being able to recognize and resist the temptation to use rudder instead of bank to line up on final and stay coordinated kept many a student pilot alive. Also knowing what the consequences were is pretty sobering.

Every plane is different but the T-34 flipped on its back just like the video. It's interesting that the -8 doesn't have the same tendency.
 
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I too learned these in the T-34. The instructors weren't too crazy about demoing them but it taught me a valuable lesson as a student. There is a tendency for students to be afraid to roll in enough bank when turning final and instead try to use rudder to make the turn to final. This can lead to a cross controlled stall low and slow.

Being able to recognize and resist the temptation to use rudder instead of bank to line up on final kept many a student pilot alive. Also knowing what the consequences were is pretty sobering.

Every plane is different but the T-34 flipped on its back just like the video. It's interesting that the -8 doesn't have the same tendency.


It might be just "my" 8. Other 8's could be different. I hope I got that across in the original post when I said "my" 8. Since these airplanes aren't standard all off the same jig, everyone has to check "their own" airplanes.

(My T 34 was Navy. The instructors just did it at altitude and had us do one also---just to show us what "not" to do in the landing pattern.)
 
I am concern about such loads on home built structure. How does one know the tail will not leave? To do it over and over for whatever reason doesn’t work with me.

Surely you are not suggesting the RV structure, designed for aerobatics, has questionable ability to be repeatedly subjected to spins. Is your only aerobatic/spin/upset experience the limited exposure you received way back in the military?
 
There is a tendency for students to be afraid to roll in enough bank when turning final and instead try to use rudder to make the turn to final. This can lead to a cross controlled stall low and slow.

This statement is the key to this discussion. Whether an inexperienced student, or an experienced pilot faced with an engine-out situation and not quite enough altitude to make the emergency landing field, we are humans who make mistakes. I believe the intention of the OP was to raise awareness of the issue that causes many pilots to die in smoking holes not far from the end of the runway.

The OP and others have learned two things by training for this maneouver. How to induce an unusual attitude, and how to recover from it.

Let's agree that flight training is good. More flight training is better. More flight training in our own aircraft so we can understand its peculiar handling characteristics is the best way to prepare ourselves so we know enough to avoid those most dangerous situations. This prevents us from ever having to use our hard-learned unusual attitude recovery skills.
 
Surely you are not suggesting the RV structure, designed for aerobatics, has questionable ability to be repeatedly subjected to spins. Is your only aerobatic/spin/upset experience the limited exposure you received way back in the military?

Off course not....but RV's have been lost doing unusual attitude maneuvers, why test it over and over.

The FAA has de-emphasized (somewhat) stick and rudder skills in favor of using your head to stay out trouble.

I am in favor of both.
 
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Yea ... I just saw the video again right in time for a BFR. We went up in a Super D and did some of these; it took a lot of input to get it to break ... and boy it felt strange cross-contolling so much!

A skid does not require cross-control... that's a slip.
Try a banked turn at low speed and add inside rudder... now you'll be upside down.
 
Apologize for ruffling feathers here, I am getting old and crotchety and know it.

Best thing going on right now is helping friend complete an RV-12. At present installing flight control system and getting spun up on "flaperons" and how they work, quite different from RV-7 and 8. Understand flap feature as of today but still have to discover how ailerons get moved.

Before that was task of unraveling rat's nest of wires from option and fuselage bundles...finally traced every wire back to connector pin and then went to diagram to find out what it was for, labeled it, and made sure it was routed correctly. The 12 is not an easy airplane to build. at least not from perspective of stepping in at chapter 31. It has many more wires than previous builds.

Doing a Flight Review tomorrow with hangar friend and neighbor in his 12, will be first time in it for me, I've heard it flies like all RV's, will find out. :)
 
A skid does not require cross-control... that's a slip.
Try a banked turn at low speed and add inside rudder... now you'll be upside down.

There was some cross-control involved ... some alternate aileron to keep the bank "relatively flat" in the turn -- a low bank, skidding turn. Agreed, not like regular slip.
 
the point of the video was to practice keeping the ball centered in the pattern. it doesn't matter how well you recover from this stall at altitude because if it happens turning final there is absolutely not enough altitude to recover.
 
Doing a Flight Review tomorrow with hangar friend and neighbor in his 12, will be first time in it for me, I've heard it flies like all RV's, will find out. :)

RV-12 is a delight to fly....not quite the git-up-and-go of the RV-8 but flying qualities are excellent.

Was very bumpy day ahead of weather system but all went well, no skids or slips to final...:) :)
 
Not to intentionally beat a dead horse... But I work for a Part 121 carrier and was in the Simulator just last Monday. We are taught "approach to stall" recovery instead of actually stalling the airplane. Basically, fly to the stick shaker and recover. It's rather bland. Our Sim Instructor did tell us within the next year though, 121 carriers (all airlines) will be required to train recovery from a full stall or deep stall. It seems the FAA is changing its tact on weather to just avoid hazardous situations or teach and practice real recovery. But it's just a rumor I guess, I heard it from a pilot. :D

And I am for it. There's seems to be a quiet, self depreciating joke among my co-workers (all 'top of the pyramid', ATP holding, Airline Captains) who don't fly GA that "If I were in a small plane, I'd probably crash". I think they're right. Staying in the middle of the envelope for an entire career dulls your skills. I know all the tailwheel, aerobatics, banner towing, formation flying makes me a better pilot and certainly better at my day job. Finding the edge of the envelope once in a while is perfectly fine and teaches you a better respect for what we're doing in the sky. As long as it's done smartly and safely like 7000' and not 300'. There's nothing wrong with that.

P.s. The DC-9 simulator does wonderful aerobatics. Rolls a little slower than the RV, and doesn't really like to spin either ;)
 
feathers

David, no feathers ruffled in my opinion. You started a healthy discussion. We learn from such things. If we stop learning... it is downhill from there. And good on you for helping out with a build. That's the spirit!
 
Upset Recovery Training, or some Aerobatic Training is the best way to learn how to avoid (and recognize if you are getting into) stall/spin situations.
Flight instruction does cost a few $$$, but is always fun and well worth doing.
I joined the IAC and flew my RV-8 in Primary Class in 2016, it was a Hoot! :D
https://www.iac.org/events
 
I guess this is a like tell me versus show me. If you tell me not to do something I might not do it. If you show me why you are telling me not to do it I'm probably going to be much more likely to respect your opinion.
 
Upset Recovery Training, or some Aerobatic Training is the best way to learn how to avoid (and recognize if you are getting into) stall/spin situations.
Flight instruction does cost a few $$$, but is always fun and well worth doing.
I joined the IAC and flew my RV-8 in Primary Class in 2016, it was a Hoot! :D
https://www.iac.org/events

+1 what Scott said!

Find some Aerobatic training, take the basic course (at least 10 hours). Tons of fun! It will take the mystery out of stalls, spins, and unusual attitudes. A good investment that will keep you safe.

Do it in a draggy, slow motion plane like a Citabria or Decathlon and you will appreciate your RV even more.
 
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