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Changing to push-button start/e-mags w/ new panel?

bill.hutchison

Well Known Member
I debated where to post this, since it touches avionics, new panels and ignition systems at the same time...

I'm in process of getting quotes for a new panel and turning my airplane from a nice analog-VFR machine to more of a glass-IFR machine.

One of the things I've liked in some airplanes I've flown is a simple process of turning on the mags and battery and hitting a push-button to start as opposed to using a key. Seems simpler.

Any reason why I shouldn't do that with the new panel, since I'm re-wiring a lot of things?

I have Slick mags on my O-360 right now, and I've been considering going to eMags for all the normal reasons (efficiency, normal plugs) since they're coming up on overhaul and wondered if a switch to those mags would have any effect on the push button start idea above...I don't think so but I don't know for sure.

In short, these are major changes. I think this is something I want to do, but I don't know what I don't know yet, especially around dependencies. I'd certainly appreciate your thoughts and opinions about the way to go about this, since I'm certain some of you have made this decision yourselves more than once. (I'm looking in your direction, Carl.)

:)
 
My thoughts

I love not having a key. I see no drawbacks in going to rmag lmag switches, with push button to start. I would recommend as a layer of safety, a disconnect button, out of easy sight. This makes it a bit safer from the unknowing playing in cockpit as well as potential thief . No issues traditional mags or electronic that I’m aware of. Good luck and enjoy your upgrade/ process.
 
I love not having a key. I see no drawbacks in going to rmag lmag switches, with push button to start. I would recommend as a layer of safety, a disconnect button, out of easy sight. This makes it a bit safer from the unknowing playing in cockpit as well as potential thief . No issues traditional mags or electronic that I’m aware of. Good luck and enjoy your upgrade/ process.

I also see no draw back in conjunction with PMAG but I am puzzled about the safety comment and unknowingly playing with it. In my view, it is has more of a chance of accidentally hitting that push button and invitation for theft.

With a key out, a kid can not possibly crank the engine but that can not be said with the push button.
 
"With a key out, a kid can not possibly crank the engine but that can not be said with the push button."

This is very true if you fail to monitor what is going on in your aircraft.

As another has mentioned above, a hidden kill switch for power to the start button. Then you will have safety, simplicity and convince.
 
"With a key out, a kid can not possibly crank the engine but that can not be said with the push button."

This is very true if you fail to monitor what is going on in your aircraft.

As another has mentioned above, a hidden kill switch for power to the start button. Then you will have safety, simplicity and convince.

I considered this. Decided that putting a lock on the mixture knob was a simple solution. wow

Glad to hear I'm not out of my mind.

If I went from the slicks to the emags AFTER I did the panel, would anything need to change? Could the same switches be used?
 
In my mind, accidentally hitting the button or an unsupervised kid poking it is pretty unlikely.

Not saying it's never happened, but there are literally thousands of certified airplanes out there with a pushbutton instead of a key start. If it was a problem, we would have heard about it by now.
 
In my mind, accidentally hitting the button or an unsupervised kid poking it is pretty unlikely.

Not saying it's never happened, but there are literally thousands of certified airplanes out there with a pushbutton instead of a key start. If it was a problem, we would have heard about it by now.
That's good to hear, since I have a pushbutton. If there is any chance of someone getting into my cockpit, like at an airshow or fly-in, my plan is to disconnect the ground lead to the battery. It's "easily" accessible from the oil door.
 
Why not have it all?

i-rpWrZ4L-L.jpg
 
I believe homeland security has a 2 lock rule they made after 9/11 for aircraft outside. You may need a prop lock if you wind up tied down while away from home. Ignition key and door key satisfied the rule. Something to consider.
 
I believe homeland security has a 2 lock rule they made after 9/11 for aircraft outside. You may need a prop lock if you wind up tied down while away from home. Ignition key and door key satisfied the rule. Something to consider.

This is interesting - I didn't realize that was a rule. My airplane does live in a locked hangar but I didn't know that was a requirement.

Funny, though. I'm pretty sure the keys from some 172s will open/start most other 172s....
 
I considered this. Decided that putting a lock on the mixture knob was a simple solution. wow

Glad to hear I'm not out of my mind.

If I went from the slicks to the emags AFTER I did the panel, would anything need to change? Could the same switches be used?

Yes, but the pmags require a power and ground switch for each mag so you should make sure you either have the switches or space for adding them.
 
Yes, but the pmags require a power and ground switch for each mag so you should make sure you either have the switches or space for adding them.

Is this a regular on/off switch like a normal mag would be? If I did the Pmag upgrade AFTER doing the panel, could I keep the same switches, or are you saying I need two MORE switches for Pmag?
 
Is this a regular on/off switch like a normal mag would be? If I did the Pmag upgrade AFTER doing the panel, could I keep the same switches, or are you saying I need two MORE switches for Pmag?

If you go with one or two P-Mags later on, the same switch(es) will work. The work on the same concept; grounding the p-lead or grounding a certain wire on the P-Mag to tell it not to fire the plugs.

My setup uses toggle switches for each P-Mag and a push button for start. If you put a kid in the plane, put them in the right seat, far away from the important switches and buttons :)
 
I believe homeland security has a 2 lock rule they made after 9/11 for aircraft outside. You may need a prop lock if you wind up tied down while away from home. Ignition key and door key satisfied the rule. Something to consider.

That's certainly not a bad idea, but I don't see how it could be a requirement. As previously mentioned, there are tons of certified airplanes out there that don't have a keyed ignition. Cessna prop twins come to mind. the only key is the one that opens the door.
 
-8 solution

I, too, liked the "push-button" starter design. I used it. Seems so..."non-Cessna"... so "old school"...
I solved the security issue by having a cut-out switch inside my forward baggage compartment...which is locked. This way, I can disable the starter and attend a fly-in, or go inside the FBO or restaurant and still leave my canopy open without fear of someone spinning the prop.
 
Is this a regular on/off switch like a normal mag would be? If I did the Pmag upgrade AFTER doing the panel, could I keep the same switches, or are you saying I need two MORE switches for Pmag?

You need 4 switches total: 2 for power to the mags and 2 to ground them. The idea is the ground switches are just like for regular mags - keeps them from firing inadvertently. The two power switches are so you can test the pmags. Turning off the power and leaving them ungrounded, the pmags should keep firing above a certain RPM (typically ~850-900) - in other words, they will continue to provide spark to the engine even if you lose your electric, just like a regular mag would do. One reason a lot of folks like them is because of this feature. Many of the other electronic ignition options out there (particularly older ones) will not keep the plugs firing if your power supply goes offline.

For more detail, go to the emagair website and download the install instructions.
 
All sorts of crazy things happen at fly-ins...just do a search here for some of the egregious things that parents have let kids do around airplanes (not to mention the usual buffoonery that happens with any crowd).

Keyswitch interlock for me...no key, starter won't engage at all. Problem solved (and sorry, but I think the idea of a "hidden kill switch" is just hokey...that's just my humble opinion).
 
You need 4 switches total: 2 for power to the mags and 2 to ground them. The idea is the ground switches are just like for regular mags - keeps them from firing inadvertently. The two power switches are so you can test the pmags. Turning off the power and leaving them ungrounded, the pmags should keep firing above a certain RPM (typically ~850-900) - in other words, they will continue to provide spark to the engine even if you lose your electric, just like a regular mag would do. One reason a lot of folks like them is because of this feature. Many of the other electronic ignition options out there (particularly older ones) will not keep the plugs firing if your power supply goes offline.

For more detail, go to the emagair website and download the install instructions.

Thanks - yeah, what you describe is what I was thinking. I was also wondering if I could get both functions (power and test respectively) in one single switch if it was a multiple-position.

I'll talk it over with the panel builder. Thanks!
 
Thanks - yeah, what you describe is what I was thinking. I was also wondering if I could get both functions (power and test respectively) in one single switch if it was a multiple-position.

I'll talk it over with the panel builder. Thanks!
Yes, 2x two position switches work fine.
 
I have these same components (e-Mags/push button start) in my RV7. When I wired it, I put in a double pole key switch for the master and alternator field functions with a pull breaker on the field. Turn it off, remove the key and it’s all dead. It’s been working for me for the past 10 years. As usual YMMV. Bob
 
I've seen key switches so worn out that no key was even required. Grab the housing and twist. A bit difficult to start the engine as finger grip was limited to hold it in the 'Start' position.

My plan is for a start button on the throttle and a guarded 'start enabled' switch on the panel somewhere.

I haven't flown a plane with a key in almost 10 years. Also, I'm not about to set myself up to get stranded somewhere by loosing the keys. On the other hand, aircraft ignition switches are generally pretty weak. A big screw driver and I'm not stranded anymore. Just buy a new key switch when we get back. I'm sure every thief knows that trick too, so keys only deter the honest people.
 
I also have a push button switch with two toggle switches for my Bendix mags. Like Robert, I have a keyed master solenoid switch so if I turn off the master and pull the key, no power goes anywhere. Push button starter switch will not turn the starter unless the keyed master switch is on. That would not prevent someone from flipping the toggle switch and "hand propping" the engine but that is very unlikely. I do remember doing quite a bit of research to get the proper keyed on/off switch. I think I bought it from DigiKey.
Keith
 
Here's how I plan to wore up my P-mags on my RV-3B project. This uses two switches, one per P-mag, that each handle power and ignition.

I'll have an unkeyed start switch like on my C180. Haven't decided about a key switch for a starter cut-out yet.

Dave
 
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A decent airplane guy can bypass an ACS key switch in about 60 seconds. I'm just sayin'...
 
Master + starter?

In a Cessna/Piper, will you get the starter to engage on the ACS key switch with the master off?
 
I believe homeland security has a 2 lock rule they made after 9/11 for aircraft outside. You may need a prop lock if you wind up tied down while away from home. Ignition key and door key satisfied the rule. Something to consider.

If something were to happen from not having a locking mechanism, it might also be an awkward conversation with the insurance company.
 
Bill,
I originally built KELLI GIRL with 2 Slicks and a normal keyed ignition with the left and right mag isolation positions that we're all used to. When the pilot ferrying her back from her vinyl wrap job momentarily dropped and lost the ignition key at a fuel stop, I couldn't wait to replace the keyed ignition approach to something more straight forward.

I replaced it with Electroair's ignition panel: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/cata...erm=4580977758705053&utm_content=All Products

Yes it cost a bit, but for me it's an elegant straight-forward approach.

A year later, I replaced the Slicks with two Pmags. I had to remove and invert each rocker switch to get them to function properly, but they work great! Note that I applied label tape to reference the L PMAG R and ON OFF positions. That's not on the stock Electroair panel: That was my doing.

Remember: For each Pmag, you must also install a CB on the ship's power source wire. I use CB switches for that function up high on the panel, away from this ignition panel (the two red toggles up above the Skyview). Turning the CB switch to OFF cuts ships power to the Pmag, forcing it to run on its internal alternator.

This may meet your needs. It works great for me.
 

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ElectroAir Switch

Can anyone tell me the difference between the two electroair switches ?

While a bit pricey they look like a very tidy solution.

I wanted to have one normal mag and one Pmag. To me they look the same except for the labeling, but i suspect I am missing something.... even after reading the instructions.

EA15000 and EA13000 (Page 354 of the Spruce catalogue)

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/ea-ignswchpanel.php
https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/elpages/ea_08-17141.php


Thanks
David
 
Sticking with ACS

I thought about the Electroaire, but decided against for two reasons:

1) It takes up 6.5 sq in of panel space compared with 0.5 sq in for the ACS, although the ACS is deeper, so if space behind the panel is critical, the Electro might be a better choice.

2) It requires three separate switches to do what the ACS does with just one.

So, I think the ACS is more elegant, therefore, my choice.

I'll just have to figure out how not to lose that key. ;)
 
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