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Prelim Report on the Alma, GA RV-10 tragedy

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The more I read on this accident the more bizarre it gets :(

I have a few different theories at this point but we'll see what NTSB determines.
 
Insurance

Not referencing the accident in this thread, I wonder when applying
for aircraft insurance, does the insurance company actually do an
airman search for the applying named pilot(s)? In the search results are
listed all ratings and medical date and restrictions.
 
Chino Tom said:
Not referencing the accident in this thread, I wonder when applying
for aircraft insurance, does the insurance company actually do an
airman search for the applying named pilot(s)? In the search results are
listed all ratings and medical date and restrictions.
Click to expand...

They need not expend much effort...almost all (if not all) of our small aircraft insurance policiesrequire that we operate in accordance with applicable portions of 14CFR91...If we bang metal...we may be asked to prove compliance.

In any case, this is a sad and unnecessary loss of young life, no amount of insurance covers that.
 
Gang,
This event is filled with a whole lot of head-scratchers, but please remember DR's rule #2:

"Threads SPECULATING about the causes of a crash/incident before the Probable Cause document is issued are not allowed here."
 
Vans in the News

Needless to say,This does nothing to help our cause.be that Class III or just public perception of RV's and the people who build them. I understand this soul paid the price and now the rest of the RV community gets to pay it also.RIP
RHill
 
Icarus said:
They need not expend much effort...almost all (if not all) of our small aircraft insurance policiesrequire that we operate in accordance with applicable portions of 14CFR91...If we bang metal...we may be asked to prove compliance.

...
Click to expand...

When I had my taxi incident a few years back, the insurance company wanted copies of my license, medical, last three pages of my log book, tailwheel endorsement, and last biannual.

I was told that if any of them were not accurate and up to date, they could refuse the claim.
 
Facts - Not Speculation

I am very familiar with VAF Rule #2. However, lessons to be considered from preliminary facts - not speculation - warrant discussion.

Fact: 5 bodies were pulled from a 4-seat airplane.

I'm not an RV-10 guy, but here is what Vans says about the RV-10:
The baggage compartment will accept 100 lbs of "stuff" loaded through the baggage door on the left side. If fewer than four people are traveling, the rear seat backs may be removed in a couple of minutes for extra baggage space.

Question 1: Can a 5th passenger fit in the baggage space?
Question 2: Is this a unique idea or has it been tried before? (Don't expect anyone to fess up - but if so, I'd file it somewhere under "Dodging a Bullet.")
 
Sorry, but the only ones that KNOW, arent here to tell us why they were there, and what they were doing. As for the license, he did have some training, apparently didnt finish up. Also---some one has been flying it to and from Daytona Beach lately.
Sad.
Tom
 
Even incorrect speculation can lead to valuable lessons. And it's prevention of recurrence that's important, not accurate determination of the accident chain.
 
Hey gents, those are the rules. I too don't always agree with them, and I get moderated as much as anybody, but...
 
N941WR said:
... the insurance company wanted copies of my license, medical, last three pages of my log book, tailwheel endorsement, and last biannual. I was told that if any of them were not accurate and up to date, they could refuse the claim.
Click to expand...

This was my experience recently. They trust when writing the policy and verify if/when a claim is filed.

And it wasn't just MY data, they got the engine, prop, airframe logs, and the AROW docs as well.
 
pvalovich said:
I am very familiar with VAF Rule #2. However, lessons to be considered from preliminary facts - not speculation - warrant discussion.

Fact: 5 bodies were pulled from a 4-seat airplane.

I'm not an RV-10 guy, but here is what Vans says about the RV-10:
The baggage compartment will accept 100 lbs of "stuff" loaded through the baggage door on the left side. If fewer than four people are traveling, the rear seat backs may be removed in a couple of minutes for extra baggage space.

Question 1: Can a 5th passenger fit in the baggage space?
Question 2: Is this a unique idea or has it been tried before? (Don't expect anyone to fess up - but if so, I'd file it somewhere under "Dodging a Bullet.")
Click to expand...

I sit back there, sideways, all the time, when removing the aft bulkhead screws. So yes it can be done. No, I haven't tried it in flight - no seat belt there. Also, for quite a few years the baggage area was labeled by Vans as for up to 150 lbs. My -10 is on the light side, and empty cg on the forward side. I could load myself, 3 140 lb men, one 120 lb woman in the baggage area, and be within cg limits. Other planes are of course different. I leave these as the facts, will not speculate on the cause.
 
When I saw 5, I went to Vans site and saw the comment - "carries 4 FAA adults and still allows 60# in baggage" , 10 drivers can say if that is accurate WRT W&B. Is that a 175# adult or a 195# adult? Did that change for GA?

While this can draw speculation, I would trust that a pilot would know what the W&B was and stay within it. That is my thinking until a report says otherwise.
 
ijustwannafly said:
This is truly sad and bizzare. I hope some information is obtained possibly from the cellphones.
Click to expand...

NTSB said:
Three cellular telephones and two electronic data cards were retained for examination at the NTSB Vehicle Recorders Laboratory.
Click to expand...

Those data cards may have come from the AFS EFIS'S installed on the -10. If so, between those and the toxicology tests they are sure to run, many of our questions will be answered.
 
There are many puzzling things about this tragedy but beside the fact that there were 5 souls on board a 4 place plane, it doesn't say anything about the ELT signal. It took some 12 hours to locate it.
 
N941WR said:
Those data cards may have come from the AFS EFIS'S installed on the -10. If so, between those and the toxicology tests they are sure to run, many of our questions will be answered.
Click to expand...


In keeps of rule #2 as we've been admonished, I whole heartedly agree.
 
Far North Texan said:
There are many puzzling things about this tragedy but beside the fact that there were 5 souls on board a 4 place plane, it doesn't say anything about the ELT signal. It took some 12 hours to locate it.
Click to expand...

The report makes clear that the plane hit hard. In such crashes the ELT or coax or antenna usually fails.
 
BobTurner said:
The report makes clear that the plane hit hard. In such crashes the ELT or coax or antenna usually fails.
Click to expand...

The ELT isn't hardened like a Flight Data Recorder or CVR would be. It is intended to get rescue efforts to crashes where there may be survivors, not to locate the hoplessly incinerated or crushed remains of airplane and people.

Otherwise we would be paying $20K+ for an ELT.
 
We've Made Aero Network Headline News

Not us individually, but certainly the RV and homebuilder community - and not in a good way.

Thu, Sep 24, 2015

Person Flying RV-10 In Georgia Accident Held No Airman Certificate


FAA Records Show He Had A 3rd Class Medical And Repairman Experimental Aircraft Builder Certificates

Sometimes things happen that are so bizarre or egregious that speculative discussion is warranted. If anyone on this forum knows anything about the truthfulness of the above statement, or the passenger configuration of the accident airplane, or anything else that might pertain, we ought to be able to discuss it rather than waiting one to two years for the NTSB [ed. You can! Just not here. When the PC is published it will be story #1 on the front page. v/r,dr] , while many in the aviation community continue to think we're all a bunch of rule-breaking yahoos.
 
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There are plenty of illicit "joyrides" taken in certified airplanes too. I'm not sure the apparent illegal action of an individual person is going to necessarily point at the homebuilt world.

We don't need this kind of attention, for sure, but this is a "people" problem. The registration category of the machine is irrelevant.
 
Toobuilder said:
There are plenty of illicit "joyrides" taken in certified airplanes too. I'm not sure the apparent illegal action of an individual person is going to necessarily point at the homebuilt world.

We don't need this kind of attention, for sure, but this is a "people" problem. The registration category of the machine is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Spot on, Toobuilder.
 
zapped

My post got zapped yesterday because I broke a rule which I really tried not to break, to that I apologize. I really don't know what part of my post broke the rule, but I yield to the moderator to which I am thankful for keeping the spirit of forum in line with the wishes of the owner. :)

Nevertheless, I would agree with Michael in that if the facts stated in the NTSB report is true, it would appear that a series of bad judgement decisions were made, and thus a people issue, not a Van's structure issue.

cj



Toobuilder said:
There are plenty of illicit "joyrides" taken in certified airplanes too. I'm not sure the apparent illegal action of an individual person is going to necessarily point at the homebuilt world.

We don't need this kind of attention, for sure, but this is a "people" problem. The registration category of the machine is irrelevant.
Click to expand...
 
Toobuilder said:
We don't need this kind of attention, for sure, but this is a "people" problem.
Click to expand...

Very true-----both parts of the statement.

Toobuilder said:
The registration category of the machine is irrelevant.
Click to expand...

The registration is irrelevant to knowledgeable folks (like us;) )----------but it is a sure fire attention grabber for sensationalism by the media, and their audience----- who are not knowledgeable in such things.
 
I'm not speculating as to the cause of this accident, but the preliminary facts certainly point to "rich doctor syndrome".

First flag- bought an airplane and earned a builder certificate before he even had a student medical cert. This is a massively expensive hobby- someone who jumps in with both feet without even *trying* it on their own first either doesn't have a good mentor nearby, doesn't listen/seek advice from others, or has more money than brains. An RV-10 no less! The Cirrus world has heard this story before.

Second flag- never finished PPL. This hobby does not tolerate the uneducated and the lazy. [ed. Speculation text removed. dr]
It's certainly tragic (more so for the passengers who in all likelihood did not understand the incredible risks they were taking), but this is a preventable tragedy.

I fly for the USAF, and when it comes to our safety reports, we are *brutal* on our own, with good reason. There's no room for drawing outside the lines in our business. There are many parallels with GA- and we should not be afraid of discussing accidents openly with the intent of learning and making our hobby safer for ourselves and those around us.

Where to go from here? Ask yourself if you know a "high risk" owner like the story here. Regularly violates FAR's? Regularly makes poor ADM choices? Sees flying as a joyride, without the requisite responsibility? Do you mentor the younger pilots you're around? Do you set a good example of a responsible owner?

All kinds of good can be garnered from some discussion.
 
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Mike S said:
...The registration is irrelevant to knowledgeable folks (like us;) )----------but it is a sure fire attention grabber for sensationalism by the media, and their audience----- who are not knowledgeable in such things...
Click to expand...

Agree completely. The fact that it's an E-AB means that we will automatically "...get some on us..." but as long as the focus remains on the pilot qualifications we can limit the bad exposure.

I only bring it up as a reminder to the board in case it comes up in conversation.
 
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Not quite speculating but questioning: Did that plane get operated for nearly 5 years and over 300 hours by an unlicensed pilot or by somebody else? And, if the former, did no one at the home airport notice and/or say something? If that's the case, I fear the official response.
 
Closing time...

Ladies and germs,

As I figured would most likely happen within the first 24 hours of this thread going live, it's now time for me to close it. My squelch is starting to break a little too often on the speculative nature. It is a tragedy of almost incomprehensible description, the loss of life and the families that are affected. I do not have the words to express how sorry I am for all the families and friends affected.

Having said that, there are mechanisms and procedures in place that will review the data and compile a report with the best information that we have. Yes it will take awhile, but it will most likely include radar data, weather, toxicology, credit card receipts, cell calls, witnesses and more. ABSOLUTELY when that document is published I will make it story number one on the front page and I will be shouting from the rooftops louder than anyone else for people to dissect it in minute detail.

Until that time, here is a link to (554) probable cause RV documents that I would encourage you to discuss at length. (210) people died in those documents.

We could be shocked by the facts in this latest accident, but few accidents are unique...most have been done many times before. We'll see when the probable cause document is published.

Doug Reeves
Site Owner
 
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