Flight following question??

So I always use flight following in busy US airspace. Had an odd situation the other day, and need to know the rules or who was at fault as I dont want it to reoccur.

Coming back from west coast of michigan and heading into busy airspace on an international vfr flight plan that i have ensured is open. Call lansing radio and ask for flight following through to the border. Great, no issue. They hand me off to sagninaw, they hand me off to flint. Told not to change heading, not to change altitude. Goes on for 40 minutes, with occassional traffic called out and as I am handed off, the new controller lets me just carry on after I check in. Done this many time before all is great.
After I fly right over flint airport at 2800...i am approaching pontiac airport same as flint and saginaw, i am on flight following with a discrete squawk code etc. Out of the blue flint calls me and says STT, radar service terminated, squawk 1200 good bye. I am now already in pontiacs airspace, almost over the airport. I call back and say no, I want flight following the rest of the way. She says, you are outside my area, goodbye. I call back and say ok, I have to climb to 3500 immediately i am violating pontiacs airspace, she says do what you want. I call back again, now I am really fired up and say I would like detroit approach freq. She gives me that, i call them, they pick me up and do what they have always done walking me through the rest of the way and hand me off as I cross the border back home.

Who is right and who is wrong. She walked me into Pontiacs air and dropped me. No frequency handoff, no "pontiac knows you are coming" nothing. There was a commerical jet that was on downwind that we flew over and there was no collision risk but I have never had an issue like this before. Always been handed one to another controller. On occassion when I first did flight following, i have called to ensure I am cleared through airspace and they act somewhat annoyed and say yes, maintain present heading and notify prior to any altitude changes. I have sometimes been told to ensure I stay clear of detroit metro class B, but flight following has always I thought ensured my route was good and towers knew my route and altitute and that was adequate. Should I have done a fast climb above pontiac? There was no time to call them I was in it and would be out of it in a couple minutes. They surely saw me on radar and had some info based on my squawk code no?

So...did i mess up, of did the controller. I did a nasa form as I felt this was unsafe and not cool. Flown this same path many many times with no issue..just need to know if on flight following, with squawk code and atc sees and talks to me and i have a filed flight plan.....who is responsible for the airspace...do i assume they clear me, or do i talk to each tower also on top of flight following?? Was this just a lazy controller or my error?

Interested in the comments as I have never encountered this before and I use flight following a lot and never once had an issue.

Sounds like a lazy controller to me. I've never had that happen. The only time I have been dropped was when I disappeared off radar (like between Ottawa and Toronto at 4500'). Otherwise, I've always been handed off and even gotten traffic advisories.

Just my opinion....

This is a bit of a gray area. In the US the FARs say for class D you need to talk to the ATC in control of that airspace. Who is that? Lots of towers have ageements with local approach control. On departures it is common to be told to contact departure prior to exiting class D. Best advice I have is to do what you did in the past, ask "Approach, can I stay with you, or do I need to call xyz tower?" They should not object to such calls.
You must not rely on flight following to keep you out of class B. You must hear "Cleared into Chicago class bravo..." before entering. On the other hand if you are getting flight following you need do nothing to go thru class C.
BTW, in the US, "Lansing Radio" is how you address a flight service station in Lansing. Correct phrasing for ATC is "Lansing approach".

As Available

Also remember that VFR flight following is a courtesy conducted on a space-available basis. If the controllers are too busy with IFR traffic, they don't have to provide the service.

The only way to make sure you get ATC services is to file IFR.

-Matt
402BD

And, even if you file ifr, remember ATC's job (except in class B) is to separate ifr traffic. If you are flying ifr it is still up to you to see and avoid vfr traffic. ATC tries but does not promise to point out vfr traffic.

I travel that route quite often using Flight Following. Flint is always eager to drop you as soon as you are out of their airspace.

Class B

I know class b is a biggie and always steer clear, its the smaller towered airports that atc I thought cleared me through as part of flight following. They have acted somewhat annoyed when I used to verify I was cleared through the airspace before. So I stopped doing that and have had no issues. I certainly know to have my eyes on a swivel to avoid planes, that is not my concern, its the running through controlled airspace talking to ATC on flight following but NOT to the actual tower I am flying near.

What is the point of flight following if some approach folks walk you through and others walk you to the front door and run leaving you scrambling. I understand they dont have to, no issue with that. They could politely decline and I would route differently to avoid it all. No issue, but 99% have always been friendly, helpful and a pleasure.

I enjoy the radio work if that is the better option. No issue if i know its coming. If she would have dropped me 2 minutes earlier, no issue. Also, I ofter fly higher but clouds didnt allow it. Just put me behind the plane for a bit and I didnt think it was proper given I was IN a towers airspace.

I attended an FAA forum at OSH this year and a similar question came up about being under flight following through controlled airspace. The question was "If I am under flight following and about to enter class C airspace, should or must I contact atc in that airspace before entering?" The FAA folks said "No, if you are under flight following there is no need to make contact with the tower controllers in that airspace." They said you can ask your FF controller if the other ATC is aware of you if you like, but contacting them is uneccessary.

As a former PTK controller, I can tell you that nobody at PTK knew you were in their airspace. When I worked there there wasn't a bright scope, but I understand there is now. You would have shown up as an unidentified a/c.

If you were talking with DTW approach, they would have coordinated cutting through PTK's airspace. In the years that I worked there I don't ever recall Flint coordinating anything with PTK.

My opinion is that Flint should have turned you over to DTW before entering PTK's airspace. It's been awhile since I worked there so the procedures may be different now.

If it were me, I might give the Flint manager a call. You could keep everything hypothetical and anonymous, but ask his opinion on what should have happened. Explain that you aren't looking to cause anyone grief, but simply to understand what the best approach would be to handle the situation should it happen again.

Personally, I would have climbed above PTK's airspace if there is room with the DTW class B. It's been too long and I don't remember the airspace anymore. Sounds like you're familiar with the area. PTK's airspace can get a little congested if the wx is nice and they are on dual locals.

bob

Purely speculation on my part....but I think you exited the jurisdiction of the FF controller and she didn't realize it right away. When she did, she was lazy for not calling ahead to the tower to get a "point out" and also a bit panicked because she felt some responsibility for you about to enter the class D, so she terminated you.

If that were to happen again, I would just call the tower and ask them to transition. They would have granted permission and if they inquired about your position, just explain to them you were just terminated by XXX just seconds ago. They will likely understand and they may even call the controller and ask them what happened.

This sounds like a clear cut mistake on the controller as you describe it. Hopefully this is an isolated incident and that the controller has gained some wisdom and experience from the situation. Sorry you had to experience it.

Hmmm

Getting a lot of conflicting advice... I was fine, just keep flying, no climb fast, no all your fault.

Tkatc?? Where are you???

If it had been me I would have called the tower and said that I had just been handed off by approach. It's not true, but that's what should have happened. The tower will call approach, and they'll talk and hopefully it won't happen again.

I'm Not A Controller, But...

The typical handoff from Flint approach occurs at the boundary of their Class C airspace. It sounds like they forgot about you. The usual routine is for them to give you an altitude and heading thru their space and then tell you frequency change approved squawk 1200 right at the boundary. If there's a handoff to the south, it would be to Detroit approach and not Pontiac. If you ever come over just for instrument practice, Flint is a great place to go. Not quite as busy as PTK, and they've got ILS, VOR, GPS, and SAR available. If you've never tried a no-gyro SAR, it's a worthwhile exercise. At the same time, the controller's enjoy the practice, as they're required to maintain currency as well.
Hope to see you at PTK sometime in the future.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

Over the years I have had flight following cancelled abruptly, squack 1200. When asked I have always been given another freq. to try. As has been pointed out control is not obligated to provide flight following thus it follows that they are not obligated to continue if you are in the system and they get busy. I was once dropped on a high speed descent in the middle of busy Boston airspace! Your situation could certainly been handled better by control.
IFR traffic has a priority and I am enjoying control in that environment.

I think it would be a good idea to fill out an ASRS report. If this is a recurring problem it needs to be brought to the attention of the respective controlling agency. It would also help guard against certificate action since you did not willfully violate any FARs.

RickWoodall said:

So...did i mess up, of did the controller

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The controller messed up. As I understand it you were already in controlled airspace. She forgot about you did not coordinate with anyone then when she realized her mistake she put you in the hot seat as fast as she could.

Just want to say a big "thank you" to tkatc and Bob Leffler. I really get a lot of valuable information re: ATC from both of them.

Doug might want to consider an "Ask the controller" section if they'd be willing to participate, but in any event, again, thanks for the great perspectives and information.

FWIW...

As an IFR pilot, I am now only flying VFR in the RV1, that said, I use flight following on my cross county flights, i.e. Oregon to Georgia, Georgia to Oshkosh. My trips are usually uneventful but when I had to divert (under flight following to Aurora, IL due to alternator charging problem, Chicago approach got right on it and saiud Airport at 11 o'clock and 3 miles, :I'll let Aurora know you're coming.) I've had the same thing happen with the poster and just asked for further FF in the next sector. The response is either: "Call XYZ App on xxx freq or remain clear of class Bravo whatever the case may be. IF the controller has had the time, they will warn you of an upcoming change in their ability to cover your flight any further. Hope this helps, and it never hurts to Just Ask.

NASA FORM

fill out that NASA form and send it in. Use the narrative you first used. It could save your license and it cost nothing. The FAA never sees it but the inspector will ask about it if there is a problem. Here is the web site, http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/electronic.html

lazy, inattentive controller. i would probably call the facility

Flight following

Done on a work load permitting basis. Not sure, based on your narrative who you were talking to. On a VFR flight with flight following, you still have responsibility for the conduct of the flight including altitude selection and route unless given a specific clearance to maintain a specific heading and altitude by the controlling ATC facility.

ksouthar said:

Done on a work load permitting basis. Not sure, based on your narrative who you were talking to. On a VFR flight with flight following, you still have responsibility for the conduct of the flight including altitude selection and route unless given a specific clearance to maintain a specific heading and altitude by the controlling ATC facility.

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correct statements.

generally speaking, you are ok to enter any controlled airspace while talking to ATC, other than class b (unless they restrict you in a way as to not enter it, ie altitude, issue a heading, etc...). it is their job to restrict you. simply terminating your butt because they were too lazy to get a "point out" or approval to enter another controller's airspace, putting the responsibility back on the pilot, is a cop-out.

the only thing i could see as a reasonable explanation here is that the controller attempted a handoff to the PTK controller and the ptk controller didnt take the handoff/wouldnt answer the line as the aircraft was leaving FNT's airspace.

You did the right thing by filing the NASA report. Many times flying IFR and VFR I have been forgotten. Not so much IFR but at least 5 times. I usually keep up with sector changes marked on the Charts really bad Memphis high to Memphis low altitude sectors. Going into Harrison, Ark. We usually get pretty antsi when were 90 miles out and still at FL380 and several times have called only to be told to standby.... Then about 60 miles out we get slammed dunked to the lower altitudes.

VFR it haapen a lot. Folks are busy with IFR. Traffic and they just forget about the little guys fling VFR. When under VFR if I am at an altitude that would put me in someone elses airspace I have oftened called ahead to advise the tower that were under flight following 25 south for examples and talking to xyzatc.
Most times I get a thanks and an altimeter readingto which I. Thank them and then go back to the other frequency..nothing is perfect... You did nothing wrong and if you ever have a situation like that you can always call the center and get a supervisor on thephone and have them pull the tapes. You will probably be thanked for bring it to their attention, just makesure your right!

Clarify

Just to clarify, I was given a specific altitude 3000 and a specifi heading and told not to deviate and been on same for 40 minutes, regularily handed from one controller to another. Literally routed right in th front door of conrolled airspace and dumped once already inside.

I have a lot of experience with airspace, radio work and flight following. My question was just what responsibility controllers had. It seemed like a dangerous and lazy way to handle me and that was the reason for the post and subsequent report. Flew a similar route the other day, had KPTK qued up but this time flight following did what was normal and expected and handed me off to detroit approach so I was always with someone.

RickWoodall said:

Just to clarify, I was given a specific altitude 3000 and a specifi heading and told not to deviate and been on same for 40 minutes, regularily handed from one controller to another. Literally routed right in th front door of conrolled airspace and dumped once already inside.

I have a lot of experience with airspace, radio work and flight following. My question was just what responsibility controllers had. It seemed like a dangerous and lazy way to handle me and that was the reason for the post and subsequent report. Flew a similar route the other day, had KPTK qued up but this time flight following did what was normal and expected and handed me off to detroit approach so I was always with someone.

Click to expand...

When VFR, the controllers have responsibility only when you are actually in their airspace. As noted previously, FF is voluntary on their part, so be prepared to be dropped at any time. Don't assume they will point out traffic outside their airspace either. Again, it is workload permitting and they may not even notify you that they don't have the bandwidth to handle you.
What you did the other day (queued up the next airspace you will be entering) is the proper thing to do all the time. You are now a wiser pilot
You didn't do anything wrong the first time (been there, had that done to me as well), except for having expectations that weren't realized.

RickWoodall said:

Just to clarify, I was given a specific altitude 3000 and a specific heading and told not to deviate and been on same for 40 minutes, regularily handed from one controller to another.<snip>

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"RESTRICTED"...."OWN NAV".... Are these words even part of your (every pilot reading this, not just Rick) everyday radio phraseology? If not, they are EXCELLENT words that you should start using when able. Practice makes perfect.

Most commonly, they are used in busy airspace but you will get the occassional 'restricted' instruction when flying cross-country. I've never yet been given a speed restriction but heading and altitude restrictions are VERY common in the Los Angeles basin.

One thing I've not yet read in this thread, and something I learned long ago is that controllers DO NOT ALWAYS pass on your altitude/speed/heading restrictions to the next controller. Honest.

When given a restriction, you should ALWAYS pass that restriction on to the next controller when given a frequency change... ALWAYS.

Here's one I mutter in my sleep as I've used it hundreds of times into Santa Monica:

"SoCAL, RV8PV descending VFR out of 7500"
"RV8PV, turn to heading 160, remain at or above 3500', contact SoCAL approach on 124.6"
"RV8PV heading 160, remain at or above 3500', SoCAL on 124.6"
........switch freqs...wait for it...
"SoCAL, RV628PV descending VFR, RESTRICTED heading 160 at or above 3500', landing Santa Monica with information Charlie, request OWN NAV when able"
"RV8PV, own nav once crossing the 101..."

If you are ever given restrictions, pass them on, and if it seems to you like it's been a long time for the restriction, jump on the radio:

"Approach, RV8PV would like to cancel altitude (and/or heading) restrictions WHEN ABLE".

Rick, did you pass on your restrictions to each controller? That may possibly be the answer: The next controller(s) did not know that you were restricted in heading and/or altitude.

Restricted...own nav....new words to add to your radio phraseology

Keep poundin' them rivets because it's ALL worth it! Rosie

Rosie said:

"RESTRICTED"...."OWN NAV".... Are these words even part of your (every pilot reading this, not just Rick) everyday radio phraseology? If not, they are EXCELLENT words that you should start using when able. Practice makes perfect.

Most commonly, they are used in busy airspace but you will get the occassional 'restricted' instruction when flying cross-country. I've never yet been given a speed restriction but heading and altitude restrictions are VERY common in the Los Angeles basin.

One thing I've not yet read in this thread, and something I learned long ago is that controllers DO NOT ALWAYS pass on your altitude/speed/heading restrictions to the next controller. Honest.

When given a restriction, you should ALWAYS pass that restriction on to the next controller when given a frequency change... ALWAYS.

Here's one I mutter in my sleep as I've used it hundreds of times into Santa Monica:

"SoCAL, RV8PV descending VFR out of 7500"
"RV8PV, turn to heading 160, remain at or above 3500', contact SoCAL approach on 124.6"
"RV8PV heading 160, remain at or above 3500', SoCAL on 124.6"
........switch freqs...wait for it...
"SoCAL, RV628PV descending VFR, RESTRICTED heading 160 at or above 3500', landing Santa Monica with information Charlie, request OWN NAV when able"
"RV8PV, own nav once crossing the 101..."

If you are ever given restrictions, pass them on, and if it seems to you like it's been a long time for the restriction, jump on the radio:

"Approach, RV8PV would like to cancel altitude (and/or heading) restrictions WHEN ABLE".

Rick, did you pass on your restrictions to each controller? That may possibly be the answer: The next controller(s) did not know that you were restricted in heading and/or altitude.

Restricted...own nav....new words to add to your radio phraseology

Keep poundin' them rivets because it's ALL worth it! Rosie

Click to expand...

I wish you all did this.

DGlaeser said:

When VFR, the controllers have responsibility only when you are actually in their airspace. As noted previously, FF is voluntary on their part, so be prepared to be dropped at any time. Don't assume they will point out traffic outside their airspace either. Again, it is workload permitting and they may not even notify you that they don't have the bandwidth to handle you.
What you did the other day (queued up the next airspace you will be entering) is the proper thing to do all the time. You are now a wiser pilot
You didn't do anything wrong the first time (been there, had that done to me as well), except for having expectations that weren't realized.

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Not necessarily true. If a controller radar identifies an aircraft or takes a handoff outside their airspace, the controller is immediately responsible for separation from airspace, issuing traffic advisories, etc...

If this can't be accomplished, they likely won't say "RADAR CONTACT," and instead they will tell you to stand by (or ignore you for a minute or two). If you hear the words radar contact, they are accepting responsibility for your aircraft.

When you get a frequency change, this is no different. One controller says to another that you are "radar contact" but you don't hear it, and the receiving controller is now responsible for separation (if applicable), traffic advisories, airspace coordination, etc... The only time this is not the case is when you hear the magic words "radar service terminated, contact XXX on XXX.XX," in which case the next guy either can't see you yet or doesnt want to provide those services yet for some reason.

RickWoodall said:

Just to clarify, I was given a specific altitude 3000 and a specifi heading and told not to deviate and been on same for 40 minutes, regularily handed from one controller to another. Literally routed right in th front door of conrolled airspace and dumped once already inside.

I have a lot of experience with airspace, radio work and flight following. My question was just what responsibility controllers had. It seemed like a dangerous and lazy way to handle me and that was the reason for the post and subsequent report. Flew a similar route the other day, had KPTK qued up but this time flight following did what was normal and expected and handed me off to detroit approach so I was always with someone.

Click to expand...

they are required to "point you out" to any other controller's airspace if you are going to enter it. they have to restrict you out of that airspace if you are going to hit it. the only exception here is class B.

if you're going to run into pontiac's class D, it's FNT's responsibility to either let them know that or turn/climb you to avoid it. they also may issue a blanket restriction like "remain outside of PTK class D," at which point the responsibility falls back on the pilot.

Smilin' Jack said:

You did the right thing by filing the NASA report. Many times flying IFR and VFR I have been forgotten. Not so much IFR but at least 5 times. I usually keep up with sector changes marked on the Charts really bad Memphis high to Memphis low altitude sectors. Going into Harrison, Ark. We usually get pretty antsi when were 90 miles out and still at FL380 and several times have called only to be told to standby.... Then about 60 miles out we get slammed dunked to the lower altitudes.

VFR it haapen a lot. Folks are busy with IFR. Traffic and they just forget about the little guys fling VFR. When under VFR if I am at an altitude that would put me in someone elses airspace I have oftened called ahead to advise the tower that were under flight following 25 south for examples and talking to xyzatc.
Most times I get a thanks and an altimeter readingto which I. Thank them and then go back to the other frequency..nothing is perfect... You did nothing wrong and if you ever have a situation like that you can always call the center and get a supervisor on thephone and have them pull the tapes. You will probably be thanked for bring it to their attention, just makesure your right!

Click to expand...

you dont have to do this. airspace looks nothing like the ones depicted on vfr sectionals. my last facility had a 20 mile TRSA but the airspace went out another 20 miles beyond that in oblong directions. a lot of the time you're talking to one controller and in another controller's airspace for 25 miles without even knowing it

Very educational discussion...thank you everyone!

DGlaeser said:

When VFR, the controllers have responsibility only when you are actually in their airspace. As noted previously, FF is voluntary on their part, so be prepared to be dropped at any time.

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Just a minor correction here, but FF is actually not voluntary on their part, controllers are required to provide the service unless it interferes with their primary responsibility, which is the separation of IFR aircraft.

"Basic radar services should be provided to the extent possible, workload permitting."

7-6-11. TERMINATION OF SERVICE
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/ATC/atc0706.html#atc0706.html.2

My understanding is the discretion regarding "workload permitting" is left to the individual controller and some have interpreted this very conservatively and the FAA doesn't call them on it very often, if ever.

I realize this is a minor quibble with what you posted and you are right in that this service is more or less effectively "voluntary" on the part of the controller given the way it's implemented. The reason I point this out is because if I were ever denied FF or dropped and I didn't agree with the controller's decision to do so, I would file an ASRS report. ATC should be providing this service to the maximum extent possible. It makes everyone safer and we are all paying for it. It shouldn't be denied capriciously.

This all happens frequently up in the Flight Levels. It's a good idea when you are using ATC services to monitor Guard (121.5) if you have that option. ATC is always looking for someone whose not on the right frequency. They'll call you there if you are listening.

Just recently ATC out of MSY gave us an incorrect freq, when we called to check in then the controller replied "roger". At some point we thought we should have been handed off, called back and asked if they had a new freq for us. They had no idea who we were or where we were. Gave us another bogus freq, they didn't want us. RINSE and REPEAT. It was crazy, finally, I called up on 121.5 and asked for a good frequency near a fix (don't remember which one). Someone else near there responded with a good freq, we check in (about 20 minutes late). Everyone acted like nothing happened. Filed an ASAP as soon as we landed.

You did the right thing by filing the ASAP (NASA) report. There's no question in my mind that you did anything wrong. But it was a minor breakdown in the system.