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RV on the ground at Travis AFB

Saw an RV sitting on the ramp amongst our C5s, KC-10s, and C-17's yesterday. I started asking around and the only info I received was that the pilot had accidentally landed there without clearance. I'm not really sure how this is possible so I thought I'd ask if it had came up on the forums or not to see what the deal was.
 
The pilot probably had some type of an issue in regards to safely continuing flight in the airplane and landed there to check things out... been there and done that on a flight to Florida from Texas. Most of the time it involves a few questions and a little checking out the situation and you can fly on out if the issue that made you land can be resolved. BUT, a few have ran into some real pricks with Power on their minds. I think some forget that the US citizens own the fields that they work on. :)
 
Nut Tree Traffic Experimental ...

Travis used to be a SAC base back in the day and MATS operated out of there taking troups on C-97s to the Far East via Hawaii (Hickam), Wake and Tokyo. Nut Tree is not far away and I believe the "Pilot's Guide to California Airports" used to have a warning about the nearness of Travis with virtually identical runway orientation. Nut Tree is at the bottom of the North side of the San Francisco Sectional Chart and Travis is at the top of the south side of the same sectional. And then there are pilots that fly to work in their RV's with authorization to land on military bases. When the Big Country Air Fest (BCAF) air race is flown out of Dyess AFB (SP?) all participants have to have properly completed DD forms submitted before they can land there. My insurance company completed the form (something like private aircraft using DOD facilities proof of insurance) even though I never flew there this year. Could be a completely normal operation.

Bob Axsom
 
I was told by the Omaha SAC Base Commander at an open house (they sponsor every year for civilian locals) that if you need to land at SAC due to emergency you are welcome, but he said; "Expect a warm welcome from 18 year old kids with M-16s just itching to use them" .... so; "Do as they say....please, it will save me a lot of paperwork".... and expect an extended stay with no courtesy car until things are "verified". ;)

I wonder if they would keep me longer knowing I was Navy.... or just start shooting? :confused:

The Base Commander was very cordial about it though, he did say if you need to land announce, state request, and comply with instructions.
 
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I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt but if he landed at Travis thinking he was at Nut Tree probably time to try another hobby. They are 7 miles apart are separated by two cities, a freeway, and a 1500ft line of hills. Nut Tree has one 4700X75ft runway and Travis has two 11,000ft runways, miles and miles of concrete ramps and it's own zip code. With GPS and clear in a million weather..well you see where I'm going with this.

Same goes for a precautionary landing. There are 3 fields within 15 miles that are uncontrolled and easy to get in and out of. Unless I was on fire or gliding I think I'd pass on the hassle that would ensue after landing at a Military Installation without clearance or permission.

I'll keep my ears open to see what the deal was. It was pretty interesting seeing an RV sitting next to a C5. I've been trying to figure out a way for years to get my a pic of my plane sitting next to one. :D
 
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It's probably Legit

I land at Offutt and Holloman all the time. Any Air Force member or retiree can apply for a civil landing permit to land at Air Force bases. Probably someone there TDY.

-Matt
402BD
 
Same goes for a precautionary landing. There are 3 fields within 15 miles that are uncontrolled and easy to get in and out of. Unless I was on fire I think I'd pass on the hassle that would ensue after landing at a Military Installation without clearance or permission.

You never know what some people will do. When I was in the Air Force, we had a guy in a Cessna 150 @ 10,000' choose Carswell AFB for emergency landing. Carswell was a SAC base at that time. He had a BIG welcoming party at the runway.

Have any idea how many airports are within gliding distance from 10,000' over Ft Worth?

He could probably even have made his destination.
 
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Matt is correct. I do the same thing. Have had my RV6A sitting on the flight line with F16s and Raptors. Looks cool but obviously out of place.
 
I land at Offutt and Holloman all the time. Any Air Force member or retiree can apply for a civil landing permit to land at Air Force bases. Probably someone there TDY.

-Matt
402BD
Do you know if prior Air Force (10 years) is allowed the same privilege?
 
I'm not really sure how this is possible

I actually landed at Travis without a clearance once.......

But it was in a Gemini MD-11, weather was at minimums and it was New Year's Eve 2001. The copilot was new and gooned up the radio freqs - instead of switching to tower he went back to the earlier approach freq. We broke out, the runway was clear and I landed rather than go missed (didn't have any extra fuel).

Talked to the tower on ground freq and they were very nice about it - they said they knew what we were doing.....

Reali
 
Do you know if prior Air Force (10 years) is allowed the same privilege?

DoD Forms 2400, 2401 and 2402 are what you would need to send to the Pentagon for approval. Six weeks later with a clearance number, I'm sure you could land at a military base.

The next hurdle is may you land there? In other words, will they give you a PPR? If you don't have the credentials to drive through the gate in a car, I'm sure entering the base through Base Ops isn't any different. So, if you are someone's guest, part of an open-house (aka airshow) then the answer is probably yes, you may get a PPR. But just to drop in a go to the BX on your own 10 years removed from active duty without retiree credentials...probably not.

At least that's how I think about it.

-Jim
 
I've landed civilian airplanes twice at Travis AFB. Of course I had pre-arranged to do so and they were expecting me.
 
I have lost count over the years the number of airplanes that have almost landed at DMAFB instead of Tucson International, same runway headings, 5 miles or so apart. There have been a few that, despite repeated controller warnings, have actually landed. Most of these have been commercial airlines....AeroMexico specifically comes to mind.
 
I was on the ramp at Vandenberg AFB years ago doing some ground checks when a Cessna 310 landed...weather was probably 600 overcast and 2 miles. A few minutes later he was taxiing across the ramp with a bunch of Air Police vehicles following. It turned out he was on his way to nearby Lompoc airport for his instrument check ride and had ducked under the overcast trying to find the airport. Landed at the first airport he found. Wrong airport. I guess they all look the same from 500 feet from a few miles away, even one with a 12,500 plus foot runway. When we left he was was being questioned by a half dozen guys and a few were on the phone with very animated conversations underway. Don't think he made it to his checkride that day. Felt sorry for him but you have to wonder....
 
I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt but if he landed at Travis thinking he was at Nut Tree probably time to try another hobby. They are 7 miles apart are separated by two cities, a freeway, and a 1500ft line of hills. Nut Tree has one 4700X75ft runway and Travis has two 11,000ft runways, miles and miles of concrete ramps and it's own zip code. With GPS and clear in a million weather..well you see where I'm going with this.

Same goes for a precautionary landing. There are 3 fields within 15 miles that are uncontrolled and easy to get in and out of. Unless I was on fire or gliding I think I'd pass on the hassle that would ensue after landing at a Military Installation without clearance or permission.

I'll keep my ears open to see what the deal was. It was pretty interesting seeing an RV sitting next to a C5. I've been trying to figure out a way for years to get my a pic of my plane sitting next to one. :D

I guess the crew that almost landed at Hawthorn as they were inbound for LAX in their airliner full of people couldn't happen. Loosen up if it was a common error it would happen every day.

Bob Axsom
 
I'd like to give the benefit of the doubt but if he landed at Travis thinking he was at Nut Tree probably time to try another hobby. They are 7 miles apart are separated by two cities, a freeway, and a 1500ft line of hills. Nut Tree has one 4700X75ft runway and Travis has two 11,000ft runways, miles and miles of concrete ramps and it's own zip code. With GPS and clear in a million weather..well you see where I'm going with this.

Same goes for a precautionary landing. There are 3 fields within 15 miles that are uncontrolled and easy to get in and out of. Unless I was on fire or gliding I think I'd pass on the hassle that would ensue after landing at a Military Installation without clearance or permission.

I'll keep my ears open to see what the deal was. It was pretty interesting seeing an RV sitting next to a C5. I've been trying to figure out a way for years to get my a pic of my plane sitting next to one. :D

At the Edwards Dry lake fly-in (actually on Rosamond Dry lake) last year one of the first pilots to arrive used the shuttle sized runway on the Edwards base instead of the dry lake 8 miles away...:eek:

This after a CD, DD forms completed, many pictures and a whole "how to arrive" procedure mailed to everyone.

Some pilots need map reading classes - or perhaps to just look out of the window?
He was in a Bonanza...:)
 
How 'bout this?

About 30 years ago, a Delta DC-9 or perhaps it was a 727, landed at Daniel Field, Augusta, Ga, at night, with a load of passengers, on it's 5,000' runway.

The main, controlled airport, where the terminal and his destination, Bush Field, is 8- 10 miles southeast!!

A specially qualified pilot was brought in to fly it out of there later.

It happens,
 
"July 4, 1967 - A TWA 707, bound for Columbus, Ohio, mistakenly lands at Don Scott Field at Ohio State University."

They had to strip it down to bare-bones and minimal fuel to get it out of there. If you are in the neighborhood there are pictures of the event in the terminal :p
 
But what do they do when an Air Force T-38 accidentally lands on the municipal field (4,000') that is six miles away from the Air base (11,000') with the same runway alignment? Happened a few decades ago when a couple of guys broke out of the clouds, saw the LaPorte Runway 22 ahead of them (instead of Ellington's 22 which was six miles ahead) and wrestled it to the ground. They ended up in the mud off the far end and the airplane had to be trucked to Ellington for recovery. I'm guessing the the pilots had to walk alongside wearing orange reflective vests, picking up litter....;)

Paul
 
Bonanza Bashing

Quote "He was in a Bonanza..."

Explains that one

Hey now... watch it... might be some RV AND Bo drivers here:)!

Many years ago I did a stint in Security Police. While stationed at Seymour John AFB, NC I had the pleasure of working long hours supporting TAC and SAC. As we had an Alert Force there, the runways were "protected" assets.

On several occasions civilian aircraft would declare an emergency and land on base. Our job was to secure the taxiways as that is where they would be instructed to land. Remember the taxiways that accommodate B-52s are wider than most runways on which we are accustomed to landing.

Our next task was to surround the aircraft with weapons out until such time as the occupants were identified and determined not to be a threat.

Oh my, how I DON'T miss those days...

Don
 
He was in a Bonanza...:)

Explains that one

Hey now... watch it... might be some RV AND Bo drivers here:)!

Yep, there are. I can see az_gila's post was meant in jest, but isn't the reply basically the same as the POA post that started the "RV bashing" nightmare a few weeks ago? Should we go over to the Bonanza forums and see if they have started a thread about how sanctimonious the RVers are?

Bonanzas are great planes, and depending on the mission, they have some advantages over RVs. The operating costs are the reason I fly an RV instead.
 
...DoD Forms 2400, 2401 and 2402 are what you would need to send to the Pentagon for approval. Six weeks later with a clearance number, I'm sure you could land at a military base.

The next hurdle is may you land there? In other words, will they give you a PPR?...

This has been my experience. For the past several years I have organized a "fly in" of sorts at AF Plant 42 in Palmdale for our company employees. Retirees, and current Guard, Reserve, AD personnel have no problem getting permission, but for the rest of us (I did 10 years in the USAF too), it is still a bit of a hassle to get the airfield manager to agree to a "legitimate need" that satisfied HIS bosses at the Pentagon. There are about 20 or so reasons listed in the regulations that allow aircraft to land on a military installation, and if you don't fit into one of those categories pretty cleanly, you're out of luck.

A civilian landing there just to check the place out is not one of those reasons.
 
But what do they do when an Air Force T-38 accidentally lands on the municipal field (4,000') that is six miles away from the Air base (11,000') with the same runway alignment? Happened a few decades ago when a couple of guys broke out of the clouds, saw the LaPorte Runway 22 ahead of them (instead of Ellington's 22 which was six miles ahead) and wrestled it to the ground. They ended up in the mud off the far end and the airplane had to be trucked to Ellington for recovery. I'm guessing the the pilots had to walk alongside wearing orange reflective vests, picking up litter....;)

Paul

Many years ago one of my co-workers at a regional airline landed at the wrong airport. A senior captain summed up the event very well. "I have yet to see an instrument approach procedure that ends at the wrong airport."

I'm not suggesting that one has to fly IFR, but a little backup will save having to explain your actions. "Gee Ralph, we are on short final, and the GPS says we have 5 miles to go..."

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Sheppard AFB - W.Falls TX

Civilian airplanes routinely land at our nearby air force base every day... but then it's a joint-use airport. :D

Heck, on most Saturdays, the tower is closed and it reverts to class E. Just don't taxi to the big ramp at the northwest end of the field ;)
 
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Wrong Way Pilotage....

We have had 2 Falcons land at Davis (3200') thinking they were at Yolo a couple miles away and twice as long....
The first one I saw pictures of. They yanked up the stairs and beat feet when they figured it out. The second one I watched and he never even stopped. Just rolled by and read a few things on the buildings that convinced them of the screwup. Blew a **** of a dust cloud standing on the brakes then another one when they rotated at the last second and the jet blast hit the dirt at the other end....
Must have something to do with flying French....? :rolleyes:
 
Bonanza Guy

Yep, there are. I can see az_gila's post was meant in jest, but isn't the reply basically the same as the POA post that started the "RV bashing" nightmare a few weeks ago? Should we go over to the Bonanza forums and see if they have started a thread about how sanctimonious the RVers are?

Bonanzas are great planes, and depending on the mission, they have some advantages over RVs. The operating costs are the reason I fly an RV instead.

I'm a Bonanza guy and I'm offended. I could probably get over it if you chipped in a little on my finish kit ;)

Bonanza guys aren't really that sensitive. Just ask our better half :)
 
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But what do they do when an Air Force T-38 accidentally lands on the municipal field (4,000') that is six miles away from the Air base (11,000') with the same runway alignment? Happened a few decades ago when a couple of guys broke out of the clouds, saw the LaPorte Runway 22 ahead of them (instead of Ellington's 22 which was six miles ahead) and wrestled it to the ground. They ended up in the mud off the far end and the airplane had to be trucked to Ellington for recovery. I'm guessing the the pilots had to walk alongside wearing orange reflective vests, picking up litter....;)

Paul

Back in my T-38 instructor days, I stopped my young air cadets, on more than one occation, from landing at Briggs AFB near El Paso, instead of the "P" field El Paso International. OBTW, as a first officer on the 727, I stopped an AA captain from doing the same thing!
 
A long time ago, I was about 15 or 16 and bummed a ride in a C-120 from a southern Minnesota farm to Sioux City, Iowa. The occasion was to visit one of my uncles who was flying F-86D's with the Air Defense Command at that time.

It was a first flight for me. I was quite excited about the adventure but did not know what was going on except we followed roads and railroad tracks to Sioux City. When we got there, this flying farmer pilot (a family friend and neighbor) landed on the grass next to a hard surface runway where the F-86's were launching. In no time we were surrounded by lots of blue pick ups with flashing red lights and guys with guns. I just sat there rather dumb founded wondering what was going to happen next when my uncle showed up in an alert vehicle and got things squared away with all the Air Police guys. He took us in tow and probably lectured the pilot, I was to interested in watching the 86s to pay much attention. We got a tour of the operation, had lunch somewhere, and flew back to Minnesota late that afternoon. I was totally committed to becoming a pilot just like my uncle. And as a matter of personal history, did fly the F-86L about 6 years later. :)





.
 
Actually, that's BIGGS Field ...

Back in my T-38 instructor days, I stopped my young air cadets, on more than one occation, from landing at Briggs AFB near El Paso, instead of the "P" field El Paso International. OBTW, as a first officer on the 727, I stopped an AA captain from doing the same thing!

and it's where I did about 17 hrs, including solo, in a Biggs Field Flying Club Cherokee 140 before deciding that I could afford to fly or get married, but not both. In 1972, Biggs was an abandoned SAC B-52 base with about 11,000 ft runway and only a about 1.5 miles from El Paso International. It was not unusual to do three takeoffs and three landings sequentially on that runway. Nor was it rare to meet a 727 climbing out of El Paso International ... but it was exciting.
 
You never know what some people will do. When I was in the Air Force, we had a guy in a Cessna 150 @ 10,000' choose Carswell AFB for emergency landing. Carswell was a SAC base at that time. He had a BIG welcoming party at the runway.

Have any idea how many airports are within gliding distance from 10,000' over Ft Worth?

He could probably even have made his destination.

Mel
If it was an engine failure and it had been me with a vastly long runway under me or the nearest, I wouldn't have gone anywhere else!
John
 
Mel
If it was an engine failure and it had been me with a vastly long runway under me or the nearest, I wouldn't have gone anywhere else!
John

Abso-freaking-lutely!
Have always dreaded the day I have to set down with no power and wouldn't think twice about using the longest runway available.
Good call John.
 
Me too.

Mel
If it was an engine failure and it had been me with a vastly long runway under me or the nearest, I wouldn't have gone anywhere else!
John

Besides, the FAR's allow a deviation from the regs to cope with such an emergency.

Best,
 
RV on ground at Travis update

Here is the scoop from the horses mouth.
Let me please set the record straight as I AM the pilot and aircraft owner of that RV-6 that was sitting on the ramp at Travis AFB, CA that day. I'm sure by now the telephone game of gossip has changed this story from what it is too some Hollywood celebrity breakup story. On that day in question I received a call from my squadron that they had messed up and needed me to be in the squadron that day by close of business day. As it was already in the afternoon, by the time I would have driven there it would've be too late. Yet it just so happened I was already with my aircraft and could arrive there in time if I flew. I had flown myself and this aircraft back and fourth from Northern California to Edwards AFB, CA. every weekend when I was deployed there from Travis to fly the C-5 Galaxy WBSI test program for 6 months approx over 4 years ago. So I called up Travis AFB Command Post and talked to the DO there. He approved my arrival and gave me a PPR (Prior Permission) to land. Approx an hour later I arrived parked in front of Base Ops. Took care of my squadron business and returned to Base Ops in 20 mins. A civilian asked for my DD 2400 forms which I gave him. This is where the problem lay: apparently by their regs the DD 2401 form 'Landing Permit Form' expires in the Technical Order (T.O.) that nobody every reads or knows. States this: the Landing Permit shall expire excatly one day prior to the aircrafts insurance expiration date or in two years of approval if the insurance policy is more than two years. Here's the battle, the civilian said it expired 4 years ago after that year I aquired it but I said since I had an annual renewal (and never let my insurance expire) that my DD 2401 form wouldn't expire since my insurance never expired. Thus insued chaos, MP's were called (who were really cool and loved my plane, we're getting beers later), Base Commander was called, etc. After 6 years of military service and having flown in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan with an outstanding record I would be treated better since I was one of their own, but no this is the military. Long story short, it's still being deceided what to do or how to catorgize this. So far I've been hit with an Unauthorized Landing and fine and have the entire base talking about me. It isn't my fault as my Command Post officer in charge gave me a PPR. He approved me gave me a PP number, parking spot and said see you soon. I had no idea my form expired that's his job to check before telling me I can land at his military base. I feel bad for him as he's probably getting it a whole lot worse than me. So that's the story ladies and gentleman. Check your forms if you're going to land at a military base, call ahead, make sure everythings good, ask for the persons name rank and duty phone, and be prepared to hurry up and wait as the military tries to make since of it all.
 
Back in the day, mid 1980's, I was a member of the Travis aero club which had its own runway and facility located on the base. Several of our members kept there personal planes at the aero club. When the weather was bad and landing at the aero clubs runway not feasible we would use the bases larger runways. Today I live in Florida and have no idea if the aero club still exists but this could be a reasonable explanation to this situation.
 
Back in the day, mid 1980's, I was a member of the Travis aero club which had its own runway and facility located on the base. Several of our members kept there personal planes at the aero club. When the weather was bad and landing at the aero clubs runway not feasible we would use the bases larger runways. Today I live in Florida and have no idea if the aero club still exists but this could be a reasonable explanation to this situation.

Well never mind me.
 
Thanks to the horse's mouth ...

we now know the details and the confirmation is in. The 'regs in this life' have become so complex that even the reg enforcers and overseers cannot make heads or tails out of them. Thus we are left to wonder each day as the sun rises whether or not we will survive the chaos of life's regs.

If it weren't for chaos, the unemployment rate would be 3x what it is, mostly in the government sector. Thank heavens for regs and red-tape or there would be absolutely no consistency from day to day.

Love the chaos,
gary
 
Beale AFB

A Cessna 175 bound for Oroville, CA airport at night lost electrical. The pilot could not use his radios to get the lights on at Oroville and running low on fuel decided to land unanounced on a taxiway at Beale AFB. What I remember, the pilot was questioned, released (his airplane was not) and given a date to return and be questioned again. The military asked the FAA if they wanted to join in the fun, they declined until they were informed that the pilot had no current medical or current annual on the 175. I do not know what the final outcome was but the airplane was eventually flown to Oroville by a friend of mine who was running the civilian flight school at Beale. The plane sat at Oroville for a couple of years. One day the tires were aired up, battery charged and off it went still out of annual.
A totally different situation but an interesting encounter with a military installation.
 
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Thanks for the info!

I'll be flying into a USAF base this spring... I think I'll include: "I'd like to declare an emergency on short final" in the remarks section of my flight plan. I'm getting very good at one-upping the USAF at their own BS.
 
The exact reason I served five years and got my DD-214. Glad I served and traveled part of the world with my wife(version 1.0) of 22 yrs. but the unorganization drove me crazy. Now self employed and loving it!
 
Uniform vs non-unform

A civilian asked for my DD 2400 forms which I gave him.

Ahhhh... there's the rub. In my 25 years with the Air Force I discovered some truths. Those in the military uniform ask "How can we get this done?" SOME (emphasis on the "some") civilian government workers ask "How can I stop it?"

It must be something to do with performance evaluations, or the fact that those in uniform come and go and those not in uniform are around long enough in one spot to build a fiefdom.

If you are a civilian government worker and do your best to contribute, please don't respond in anger. There are a small percentage of those in positions such as this that refuse to acknowledge the time-spatial relationship of fecal matter (s___ happens!). If your attempt at paperwork was pure, and you forgot to cross the t and dot the i then; here, I'll do it for you this time if you promise to be good in the future... now, get that airplane off my field!
 
Fiefdoms

Flynwest,
I've brought my RV-6 to Mountain Home AFB a few times, and the Airfield Ops Nazis are apparently the same everywhere. This is my home field, though, and I used to be the Ops Group Commander's Executive Officer, so I had an "in" with the Boss. Even still, having a small civilian airplane come in to that base threw most of them for a loop. They (especially one Senior Master Sergeant that I can think of) literally look for any way they can tell you "no". Of course, that's how most of the "support" functions seem to be these days.

sigh...
 
DC8 bound for Da Nang Int'l lands at Marble Mtn

Just before I was stationed at Marble Mountain Marine Air Facility (MMAF) in Northern South Vietnam, a DC8 landed on our little strip--amazing video taken from the Army side. I was on the other side of the runway with the Marines flying H46's.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bvK6enoQDg

Any DC8 pilots probably know about this one.
 
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