What model to build

Help please...

Ok, I have just about decided I want to build an RV. I've bought some tools, and I'm starting to play with the toolbox, and the sample project.

I "think" I want to build an RV-9A, but I want to be sure.

I have had a chance to fly an RV-6a, and an RV-9a (thanks Tonya!), and while they are both great, I liked the extra room in the 9, and I don't have a need/desire for aerobatics.

I'm 5' 10" 215, and my wife is 5' 3". I believe we would both have enough room to be comfortable on long trips in the 9, but should I consider the 14?

We currently own a Cessna Cardinal, and I'm looking for something that will be faster, and cheaper to operate (less fuel consumption).

I'll be looking to build the plane as a full IFR platform, and doing a lot of cross country flying.

I'm a little concerned about the nose wheel issues on the 9, is that warranted, or is the problem overblown?

I keep hearing that the 14 will be an easier kit to build? How much should that play into my thinking?

I've never attempted anything of quite this scale before, so I am really trying to make sure I make a fully informed decision.

Thanks,

-Dan

Lots of opinions

IMHO the nose wheel issues of the -A models are overblown, but I'm sure
there will be those that disagree. As I recall, the early Cardinals had many PIO events.
You should have no problem with any of the RV -A models.
The -14 would be my choice (second to the -10) although with the
IO-390 it won't use less fuel than the Cardinal. The -9, -14 and -10
wings are more stable for IFR (although every RV model can and is flown IFR).
The new kits are so much better in terms of building ease. The little extra
cabin room of the -14 would be the deal maker for me. Buy you can't go wrong
with any choice you make. Good luck and welcome to the RV world!

I don't normally get into these "what model should I build" threads, because almost everyone tends to defend their own choices as "the right one"....but since the RV-14 is so new, and few have flown it, I figure I might contribute to the discussion. I'd have to say that your requirements very much match the mission for which it was designed. I flew both the -14 and the -9 back-to-back at the factory back in September, and the -14 is quite remarkable as a cruising machine - roomy, excellent visibility, plenty of baggage capacity. And yes, if you do decide that you want to go upside down, it will accommodate.

The downside, of course,e is that if you get into one right now, you'll be on th bleeding edge of the technology - they haven't even released all of the sub kits yet - so you'll have to put up with a few inevitable mis-steps and changes in the early production process.

If you think you're going to be a really fast builder, you could have a -9 flying before you have a -14 going. But if you are going to take a few years to build, you might end up at the end going "if I had waited a year to start, I could have had a -14...."

Just throwing those thoughts out there for you to add to your mix.

Paul

I am fully impressed with every aspect of my 9A, but if I were starting a project today (truly starting, not planning), I would build a 14. It has many desirable improvements over the other side-by-side RVs, not the least of which is the added room.

Ironflight said:

I don't normally get into these "what model should I build" threads, because almost everyone tends to defend their own choices as "the right one"....but since the RV-14 is so new, and few have flown it, I'd have to say that your requirements very much match the mission for which it was designed. I flew both the -14 and the -9 back-to-back at the factory back in September, and the -14 is quite remarkable as a cruising machine - roomy, excellent visibility, plenty of baggage capacity. And yes, if you do decided that you want to go upside down, it will accommodate.

The downside, of course,e is that if you get into one right now, you'll be on th bleeding edge of the technology - they haven't even released all of the sub kits yet - so you'll have to put up with a few inevitable mis-steps and changes in the early production process.

If you think you're going to be a really fast builder, you could have a -9 flying before you have a -14 going. But if you are going to take a few years to build, you might end up at the end going "if I had waited a year to start, I could have had a -14...."

Just throwing those thoughts out there for you to add to your mix.

Paul

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Paul,

Thanks, that is pretty close to what my thought process has been. I got a chance to see a 10 yesterday for the first time, and talked with the owner quite a bit. I thought I had just about decided on the 9, but after speaking with him I'm thinking I need to consider the 14 more carefully. Of course the lack of details on it at this stage make that a bit tougher.

I'm a bit concerned about the additional cost of the engine for the 14 (both to run and in terms of fuel), but aside from that it looks like it would be a great plane.

Also, it looks like if I want to start anytime soon, I'll have to start with a slow build wing kit(?). I was planning on starting with the empanage. Any reason to be concerned about having to start with a wing kit?

Lots of questions I know, but there is a lot of data to try and digest.

Thanks,

-Dan

Another question.

Does anyone have a good idea/guess as to what fuel burn would be on a 14 at cruise speed, say 55% and/or 70% power?

I "think" a 9a with a 160hp CS Prop burns about 7.5 at 55% power? How much more could I expect a 14 to burn?

-Dan

dweyant said:

I'm 5' 10" 215, and my wife is 5' 3". I believe we would both have enough room to be comfortable on long trips in the 9, but should I consider the 14?

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I would consider the 14, you can never have too much room. Plus you never know when you will take a trip with that 6'4" buddy of yours. I've not flown the 9, but I do get leg cramps if I fly a 7 for over an hour. I'm only 6'1".

dweyant said:

We currently own a Cessna Cardinal, and I'm looking for something that will be faster, and cheaper to operate (less fuel consumption).

Click to expand...

You can have faster or cheaper, but it's hard to get both. I have a RV-10. If I want to enjoy the scenary and have an economical flight, just pull the throttle back. But if I do need there fast, I have that option too, but it will cost me.

dweyant said:

I'll be looking to build the plane as a full IFR platform, and doing a lot of cross country flying.

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Either will be fine for IFR.

dweyant said:

I'm a little concerned about the nose wheel issues on the 9, is that warranted, or is the problem overblown?

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Overblown in my opinion, unless you plan on flying out of a lot of not well maintained grass strips. The 14's nosewheel will be stronger, but I don't think that will matter.

dweyant said:

I keep hearing that the 14 will be an easier kit to build? How much should that play into my thinking?

Click to expand...

That really depends on your skill level. I built a 10 without previous experience. If history can be a determining factor, with every new model the plans have been getting better, clearer instructions, and easier construction. With all that is planned for the 14, it will be an easier kit to assemble.

dweyant said:

I've never attempted anything of quite this scale before, so I am really trying to make sure I make a fully informed decision.

Thanks,

-Dan

Click to expand...

I also concur with Paul's statements.

This is just like anything else in life. If you worry about starting such a large and complex project, you'll never get started. Jump in head first and only worry about getting the tasks on page 1 down. When that's completed tackle page 2. Before you know it, you'll be completely through the project.

The wing was probably the simpliest part of my 10 build. It's a lot of repetition. Just practice riveting to ensure you don't get too many smileys. There are plenty of threads on VAF that provide riveting advice. I would also recommend assembling the practice kit and the tool box to get a taste of the tasks you'll be doing during the construction and assembly of which ever model you decide upon.

Neither is a bad choice. If it were me, I would go with the 14.

bob

dweyant said:

Also, it looks like if I want to start anytime soon, I'll have to start with a slow build wing kit(?). I was planning on starting with the empanage. Any reason to be concerned about having to start with a wing kit?

Lots of questions I know, but there is a lot of data to try and digest.

Thanks,

-Dan

Click to expand...

If you go the 9 route, I strongly advise to start the kits in order. The plans are more verbose in the early chapters. By the time you get to the empennage, they quit explaining all the minute details that you were suppose to learn in earlier chapters. If this is your first build, this is important. If you built before, it doesn't really matter.

With the 14, I think they released the wings first because it was the easiest to bring to the market the quickest. Like I mentioned in my other post, the 10 wings were pretty simple. The 14's tanks are a different size, so I don't know how much of a difference that the construction process will be.

A lot of people fret and have anxiety about building their tanks. It's not that hard. Once you get them done, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

Do you need 4 seats?

Since you currently own a Cardinal do you need 4 seats?

Like others have said, I think the -14 will be a great cross country machine with tons of room and a more upright position. I think your wife will enjoy it more than the other 2 seat models.
But when it comes to the economics I bet the difference between the -14 and a -10 would be 1-2gph. Of course the building is more expensive.
I average around 10 - 10.5 gph in the -10 at 158 kts TAS. Of course you can go faster if you burn more fuel. Not sure what the IO-390 will run at LOP but it won't be too much less.

Just something to think about.

ScottSchmidt said:

Since you currently own a Cardinal do you need 4 seats?

Like others have said, I think the -14 will be a great cross country machine with tons of room and a more upright position. I think your wife will enjoy it more than the other 2 seat models.
But when it comes to the economics I bet the difference between the -14 and a -10 would be 1-2gph. Of course the building is more expensive.
I average around 10 - 10.5 gph in the -10 at 158 kts TAS. Of course you can go faster if you burn more fuel. Not sure what the IO-390 will run at LOP but it won't be too much less.

Just something to think about.

Click to expand...

Thanks, that helps.

I currently need four seats, but if I figure a 4-5 year build, that has my daughter off at college, and the need for a four seat plane goes way down. Any, I might still keep the Cardinal after I get the RV built...

This is turning out to be a tougher decision than I thought. I'd really like to go with the 14, but I'm just not sure the extra cost is worth it to me.

-Dan

Back to the "economy thing" for a moment ...

If economy is truly high on your list, it would be hard to beat a Nine with an IO-320. Running LOP, RV-9/9As regularly see 150 kts on less than 6.0 gph. That Roncz airfoil loves 8000MSL and up.

Out of the box here

Hi,
Start with RV3 don't jump direct to 9 it will leave you forever poor right after first flight. Doesn't matter how cheap you built it. Start with RV3 then up to 14 but don't start with 9

Consider buying?

You guys have a Cardinal right now, and enjoy flying. Are you sure you want to build? Building is FUN and cheaper than therapy or having an affair (That is what I tell my wife) so I'm building because I love to build.

It's a buyers market right now, and there are some very high quality planes out there.

AND, since I'm building a 9A, and really happy with my decision, I won't give advice about what model to get.

Dkb

If you are thinking of keeping the Cardinal (with fixed costs of insurance, hangar, taxes) then I suspect the $$$ will favor selling it and building a -10, unless you have a partnership deal or something like that. Keeping a seldom flown aircraft is usually expensive, if you look at the real costs.

I am not tall, and debated the 7 vs 10 (no 14 when I was buying) choice too, as my son was approaching the age where he would be out of the house. I went with the 10, and am happy. I am surprised by how often we have passengers with us.

As to the 9 vs 14, it's a personal choice. 14 has more room, will go faster (and speed always costs gas, but if you slow down to -9 speeds you should get close to the -09s fuel burn). But the 14 is more expensive, no question.

Decisions - make a list of the different models and see what you didn't cross off when you get to the bottom.

If you want aerobatics, well, the RV-9 isn't aerobatic.

If you want to keep fuel burn as low or lower than the Cardinal, then the RV-14 and -10, with their larger engines, won't do.

If you need more than two seats, the RV-10 is the only plane in the lineup that has them.

If you don't care about aerobatics and two seats will do, the RV-9 and -12 will be more fuel efficient than the RV-7, -8 or -14.

If you want rapid construction and can accept a lot of pre-engineered choices already made for you, the RV-10, -12 and -14 are the Van's planes of choice.

If you are primarily interested in a project for the project's sake, the early RVs are the ones to get, with few pre-punched parts and sketchy plans. I think that's the RV-3, -4 and maybe the -6, except I think the RV-6 might now have a lot of pre-punched parts, not sure about that.

If you want side by side seating, that eliminates the RV-3, -4 and -8.

Simple, isn't it?

Dave
RV-3B, just finished the rudder

Thanks everyone, a lot of really good comments, and gives me a lot to thing about.

I own 1/2 of the Cardinal, and the plan is to keep it at least until I build an RV, possibly beyond. If I kept it beyond that I'd likely consider adding an extra partner (with my current partners blessing of course) to help keep the fixed costs down.

I really liked the 10, but I don't think it offers enough over what I have in the Cardinal to justify building it.

Based on my thoughts and everyone's comments, I really think it comes down to either the 9 or the 14, and I'm leaning more towards the 9. I need to sit down and do an in depth pro/con list for both models, but I think the lower cost to build and operate is probably going to tip things in favor of the 9.

Now, hopefully I can get some work done on my toolbox this evening and make sure this is something I really want to do .

-Dan

Not to add another option to consider in the fold, but you could build a -9a for the insane fuel efficiency, and add Alan's almost-a-14 seat mod.

http://antisplataero.com/Products.html

sbalmos said:

Not to add another option to consider in the fold, but you could build a -9a for the insane fuel efficiency, and add Alan's almost-a-14 seat mod.

http://antisplataero.com/Products.html

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While I think that Allan's mod is an interesting way to make the existing two-seater's more comfortable for tall folks, I don't think that it addresses what I found to be the greatest comfort factor in the larger RV-14 - the increased WIDTH of the seating area. Not having to scrunch or stagger your shoulders is what really makes the -14 nicer IMHO. I think of Allan's mod as a "Tall man" option (similar, in concept, to the tall man option you can buy from the factory for the -8...it creates a longer cockpit).

"If you want to keep fuel burn as low or lower than the Cardinal, then the RV-14 and -10, with their larger engines, won't do."

This isn't necessarily true. If you run the -10 hard the fuel burn rate is higher than the Cardinal.

But: I can slow to 160 KTAS @ 10 gal/hr - similar fuel burn rate to the Cardinal but still faster. Slow to Cardinal speeds and my fuel burn rate is better.

Just keep in mind as you weigh your options, how you fly and use your airplane today may, and probably will, change.
You may end up chasing the $100 hamburger more, fly short legs to the local EAA chapter meeting, visit close buddies, take in the scenery, fly solo a lot more....
What used to be transportation may become a true pastime, in addition to basic fast transportation.
I know of at least one very nice, very capable RV for sale on this site that is no longer happy with their choice as they can not keep up with the activities of their friends. Solution, sell it and "upgrade".
I never had any idea I would enjoy aerobatics, or formation flying, but that world opened up to me through my association with new friends as a result of owning an RV that was capable of those activities.
So, as an example only, if you end up with a RV-9 or 10, find yourself chasing your new found buddies around in their 4's, 8's, or whatever, you may end up with RV envy. I am sure there are scenerios where the reverse is true, but I have a harder time visualizing that because of how I fly and use my airplane. Individual results will, and do, vary, so this is not a dig against the 9 or the 10. They do things the other's don't too.
You just don't know how your world of flying might change with an RV.

Rebuild an 0320

If your concerned about what it will cost to get it in the sky, there are
a lot of rebuildable 0320's out there. This will save you a bunch.

Has it been determined that the 14 will be significantly more expensive than the 9? If the price they set for the wing kit is any indicator, I don't see a significant difference.

Which Plane?

diamond said:

Has it been determined that the 14 will be significantly more expensive than the 9? If the price they set for the wing kit is any indicator, I don't see a significant difference.

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I too am at the point where I'm ready to buy, but trying to decide the "right plane" for me. The popular theme throughout these forums seems to be that the -14 is going to cost a lot more than previous models (except the 10 of course). I remember reading that Vans estimated the wings to cost around 9K, but when introduced, were much lower in price. I've also read that they plan to offer the IO-390 at prices close to, or even slightly less than the angle valve O-360. Who knows what the rest of the kit will cost, since they haven't even started offering anything but the wings. Maybe I'm missing something, but it doesn't look like the cost of the kit is going to be a significant difference than earlier models. Sure, I am aware that there are builders out there that have built much cheaper by going with mid-time engines and VFR equipped birds. But I personally feel that an extra 10-20K for a comfortable, cross country plane with a factory new engine is well worth it. At 6'1 and 255+/- lbs I've flown in an RV-7, and it would be tight with my 115lb wife. It would probably be impossible to take my dad up since he is taller than me and weighs only slightly less. My only hang-up with the -14 right now is that it is slower than the -7 and -8. I worry about building a -14 and not being able to keep up with my -7 and -8 buddies.

cwilkins said:

It would probably be impossible to take my dad up since he is taller than me and weighs only slightly less. My only hang-up with the -14 right now is that it is slower than the -7 and -8. I worry about building a -14 and not being able to keep up with my -7 and -8 buddies.

Click to expand...

Craig,

There are two things that matter in making your selection.

The first is your mission for the aircraft. Based on your description of wanting to have a comfortable plane for you and your family. The 14 seems like a good fit. That's one of the main reason I built a 10. If the 14 was available six years ago, that's probably what I would have built.

The second is budget. If you can afford it, go for it. There is so much diversity on VAF, don't let other people's judgement or budgets drive your decision.

I also wouldn't worry about speed unless your mission is to constantly race your RV buddies. Trust me, they won't be flying wot all the time. They enjoy the better fuel economy by pulling back the throttle too. We have mixed aircraft types flying off for a $100 hamburger all the time. The fast guys slow down and the slow ones fly a little faster. It all works out.

In my particular case, I can only do about a hour in a 7 before I start getting leg cramps from not enough leg room to make me comfortable. This is going to be different for everyone.

Good luck with your decision making process! You are going to enjoy which ever model you decide to build.

Bob

For What Its Worth,

I can not say enough good things about the RV-8, I've thoroughly enjoyed building it so far.

Visitors are amazed at how well and quickly it goes together and it is not a quick build kit!

Arrange a trip to the factory with your wife and sit in both planes.

As far as fuel costs, pull the black knob back. If you are keeping another plane then your cost concerns are groundless.

Understand up front that Van's aircraft has incredible resources for their builders. This forum as well as the huge number of builders across the world make for a knowledge base that can't be beaten. Just try to find an airport where there isn't an RV based upon it.

Having said that, with each model of Van's aircraft, the kits have been more and more refined and easier to build. I fell in love with the 9 and started building it some 10 years ago. Life got in the way and I didn't complete it. However, I had never done anything like that before. There was a lot of head scratching along the way of the emp build. Nothing that a question here, a call to the factory or local support couldn't answer but head scratching none the less. The 9 has plans and a builders manual. You go back and forth, hence the head scratching. Something you read in the 'how-to section in chapter 3 needs to be remembered all the way through the build. It may not be specified as a step in the build manual but its needed. Again not a big deal but you need to be aware of it. Perhaps I was a special case of 'newbieism'. I had never built anything before!

By the time the 12 (perhaps the 10) rolled around the plans and the build manual were wed. They were not seperate, they were one. So you had a plan step to complete and there was a 'plans' picture right there in the step to show you what to do. It's an incredible step forward. There is no going back and forth between two documents to fighre out what you need to do. With the 12 it's there. Here's a small example of the 12 plans with the combined plans and manual:



Is the 12 perfect? Probably not. I've noticed that things that are in the section on the emp/tailcone that are steps to complete, you don't really have the parts to do it until you order and receive another kit. That really means you can't finish that section until other kits come in, it just goes on the back burner. For example, you would normally have wiring to do in the tail cone, no wiring came with the emp/tailcone kit. There are other things but its an example of how the eveolution continues.

With the 14, it sounds as if everything you need for each kit is with the kit. that's another huge step in the evolution.

Besides the advancements and evolution of the kit plans themselves, there is the evolution and advancement in the design of the aircraft. The landing gear is greatly improved over kits, especially the nose gear varient. The canopy is a huge redesign/improvement over other kits (while there is no sliding canopy there is also no steel frame that has to be beat up to fit like on other kits). The steps for boarding the aircraft are better designed into the aircraft. There are tons of little things that make the 14 much easier to build if you follow Van's path. It's a 9 and 7 combined with the front seat room of a 10.

Most people look at the weight of Americans and bemoan the need for a wider cockpit because we're getting fat. I was there for a long time myself and no matter what I did I couldn't seem to loose weight. For those younger ...hint... your metabolism will slow down, everything seems to get harder after awhile. I remember being younger and wondering why would someone allow themselve to look like that. Then I found I was one...

Now, I've lost weight but the one thing that occurrs to many of us, even the skinny, is what Paul has pointed out and I totally have to agree with. If you have wide shoulders, no matter your weight you need all the cockpit room you can get to be comfortable with passengers. The 14 (and the 10) win hands down.

The 14 has room, comfort, probably the easiest build of any of the RV models, advanced kit design, advanced aircraft design and in the end will probably be the most popular 2 seat Van's aircraft available (unless they come out with something else!).

Bob

Building?

A lot of builders build what they think? they want.... But!!,,,, a lot build a RV8 the second time around..

Not so many go the other way? Not so sure why this is,,, but my $.02,,,,, the 8 is the one for me.

I am going to take a stab at it, and if I ever get to try one out, it will be interesting to see what the numbers are.

At 65% power LOP burning 9.04GPH (34.2LPH) you will get around 158-159 knots TAS a around 8000'.

So when you look at the speed of say a 180HP RV7A which is doing 166 knots on 7.75GPH, the extra room payload and so on, the extra fuel burn of say $6 and hour is really worth every cent.

The RV9 is a gem, same cabin as the 7 but TAS 155Kts on 6.9GPH. almost as quick as the the -14 but 2GPH less. And so slow over the fence it is almost like flying a cub!

I would suggest going for the -14 unless you and your wife are 165lbs or less. The extra elbow room for long flights is worth 10 times the price difference.

YMMV

WHat Plane

Save your self some fun of building and buy a RV6 great deals right now and a great airplane best of the RV's get a ride in one and you will be sold.