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  #1  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:26 PM
mattsrv7 mattsrv7 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Seattle, WA
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Default Missing or Incomplete Logs - Phase I Entry Question

I have a general question about how to deal with the Phase I logbook entry for an experimental amateur built, if the logbooks have been lost or are incomplete. I searched the forum and I couldn't find the answer to this question specifically.

When looking at used experimental aircraft there are occasionally examples where the aircraft has been flown 500+ hours but the original logbooks are incomplete or missing and the original builder has passed on or isn't available to reconstruct them.

If this is the case, and there is no entry showing that the Phase I testing has been completed, is it necessary to establish a new Phase I test area and get new operating limitations and re-fly the full 25 or 40 hours?

Similarly, there are quite a number of used RV's and other experimentals that have changed props, ignition systems, oil systems, and haven't always notified the FAA (or kept records of it) and tested these major alterations in Phase I with the proper logbook entries. Different FSDO's have also had different interpretations of the rules over time. How are these fixed if it has been 300 hours since the prop was changed?

What's the best way to handle the paperwork, in either the case where the logs are missing or when the proper entries haven't been made for a major alteration?
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Last edited by mattsrv7 : 05-20-2018 at 08:54 PM.
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  #2  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:52 PM
rv7charlie rv7charlie is offline
 
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Location: Pocahontas MS
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Factory a/c have a provision for reconstructing logs if they are lost. There would be no way to prove many of the reconstructed entries. Why would it be different with a homebuilt?

On prop changes: from the mouth of a FSDO employee, it's only a major change if going to/from fixed pitch to controllable.

Charlie
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  #3  
Old 05-21-2018, 01:18 AM
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az_gila az_gila is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv7charlie View Post
Factory a/c have a provision for reconstructing logs if they are lost. There would be no way to prove many of the reconstructed entries. Why would it be different with a homebuilt?

On prop changes: from the mouth of a FSDO employee, it's only a major change if going to/from fixed pitch to controllable.

Charlie
Not quite, at least in my Operating Limitations. Here in rough outline - cut-n-paste didn't work.

If the major change is a different type of engine or from a FP to CS prop then a revised FAA Form 8130-6 (the Registration info) must be filed.

it also clearly includes a definition of a major change as being defined in 21.93, which says...

a) In addition to changes in type design specified in paragraph (b) of this section, changes in type design are classified as minor and major. A "minor change" is one that has no appreciable effect on the weight, balance, structural strength, reliability, operational characteristics, or other characteristics affecting the airworthiness of the product. All other changes are "major changes"...

I'm guessing my Sensenich pitch change (in process) from 83 to 85 inches could be classified as changing "operational characteristics".

Are the older OpLims different?

Perhaps your FSDO person was referring to a revised Registration Form submittal rather than proving compliance to 91.319(b)?
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  #4  
Old 05-21-2018, 05:23 AM
vic syracuse vic syracuse is offline
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Default Some thoughts....

Changing pitch on a fixed pitch is not normally considered a major change. Changing different fixed pitch propeller, such as from senseninch to a 3-blade Catta could be considered a major change. It is always best to ask the local FSDO as per the Operating Limitations.

As for reconstructing logs, it can be done. Sometimes I have seen these kinds of problems with estate sales after the death. In one case, the Phase I entry was not there, but the builder had notes on every flight detailing the testing. That made it easy enough to go fly it for a few hours and then sign off Phase I.

As for nonexistent builder logs, those are hard to replace. If it has already been licensed and flying in the US, then it has passed the 51% bar and may never be needed again. However, it could limit the sale of the aircraft to another country who wants proof that it was amateur built.

Builder logs and photos are really nice to have for all subsequent owners, but may not always be possible.

Missing engine logs SOMETIMES are missing for a reason, and I would be suspect. I have seen a number of AB aircraft where the engine was of unknown origin, so it is hard to tell how old it was, if certain AD's were ever complied with, and what kind of maintenance was performed. Of course, the pricing should usualy reflect these issues.

Vic
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  #5  
Old 05-21-2018, 09:52 AM
Garwin Garwin is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Roswell NM
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Default RV-3 kit with no builder logs

I bought an RV-3 kit with mostly finished assemblies, the fuselage is in the canoe stage and there is a lot more work to do, but the builder lost/can?t Remember where the logs are. The last work was done in the early 1990?s and then it was crated and moved to the dry southwest. I have the ?bill of sale? from Van?s they said they need to transfer the kit registration and other paperwork they sent. What can I do to make sure this can get passed the FAA as amateur built if I finished the kit. I am also looking at selling the kit as my mentor ran into problems after I bought it and I will have to sit on it for a couple of years before he can help.
Thank You Garwin
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  #6  
Old 04-17-2022, 01:41 PM
kaa kaa is offline
 
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Sorry for digging up an old thread, but I couldn't find an answer to the question. What's the situation with buying an aircraft where phase 1 logbook entry is missing? Does phase 1 testing need to be repeated? Is it legal to fly the aircraft without it (the aircraft has >1000 hours and decent records for the past 20 years)? I couldn't find a definitive explanation of how this works from the legal standpoint.
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  #7  
Old 04-17-2022, 02:00 PM
BobTurner BobTurner is offline
 
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Remember that the FAA definition of a ‘logbook’ is ‘a reliable record’. Have you looked to see if the Phase 1 OpLimits themselves were signed off?
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  #8  
Old 04-17-2022, 02:29 PM
kaa kaa is offline
 
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Thanks, I'll take a look when I see it, but does phase 1 get signed off in the operating limitations? I have never seen this before, and my RV only has a logbook entry (with phrasing specified in the ops limits).
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  #9  
Old 04-18-2022, 01:04 PM
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rvbuilder2002 rvbuilder2002 is offline
 
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A potential factory regarding the discovery of a maint. records sign off for Phase 1 on a specific airplane is that I am pretty sure that older operating limitations (at least early 90's and older) did not have a requirement in the operating limitations to make an entry in the maint. records.
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  #10  
Old 04-18-2022, 06:01 PM
kaa kaa is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rvbuilder2002 View Post
A potential factory regarding the discovery of a maint. records sign off for Phase 1 on a specific airplane is that I am pretty sure that older operating limitations (at least early 90's and older) did not have a requirement in the operating limitations to make an entry in the maint. records.
Thanks everyone. For this particular airplane the verbiage for the logbook entry is in the operating limitations (but it's not signed off there). A chunk of logs is just missing from the first few years.
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