Help from ATC

Here is a ATC related question that I have not been able to get a satisfactory answer for.

Scenario:

The Tower clears you Downwind left for Runway 27. Once established, the Tower calls "you are number 2 for landing, behind the Cessna turning final".

What I did was wait for the Cessna to pass, then I started to turn Base with the intent of following him in.

The tower calls "you were not cleared to turn base, extend your downwind!", which I then did. In fact, I made a point of extending the downwind so long, that I almost exited the control zone before I called "long downwind Runway 27".

What did I do wrong? Does the instruction "follow" automatically include any maneuvers required to do so? Do I always need a specific clearance or instruction on Downwind before turning base? Should I remind the tower on Downwind for an instruction or clearance?

Thanks

IMO, the tower should have stated that they would call your base.

Cleared to turn base? Unless they say they will call my base, I believe it is up to me to decide. As for the Cessna, I typically turn base when the preceding traffic passes my wing unless they are significantly slower than me.

"Number two for landing" isn't exactly "cleared to land" but I would have suffered the same confusion as you did I suspect with the same result. A controller who was still learning his craft perhaps? I think I would have asked for a tower phone number after landing to get some clarification.

There are far more experienced pilots than me in here, if you were in the wrong...they will come by and educate us both.

Well my better half is a controller at LAX I sent her your question.

Ron Lee said:

IMO, the tower should have stated that they would call your base.

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Agreed. Unless I'm given explicit instructions, I assume that I should fly a normal pattern by my judgment, and the tower will let me know if I need to do something different.

I frequently hear "I'll call your base" and "extend your downwind" and such. I don't think I've ever heard a tower controller explicitly say "turn base and final, your discretion."

Ask

I would have asked. When in doubt, ask. Much easier than a violation.

ATC

Different procedures in Canada?????

General comment on how I see things working at my local controlled airport...

Typically, tower will say something like, "Zulu Oscar Kilo, you are number two for three six. Your traffic is a Cessna on left base, two miles at your eleven o'clock." I will respond that I'm looking for traffic. If / when I spot it, I will tell them I have the traffic, and then happily choose when I turn base and final, and have never had an issue with it. If I don't, I will tell them "No joy on the traffic" and ask them to call my base. My general sense is once I've given them confidence that I know what is in front of me (not necessarily that they've told me what's there, but that I've said I've seen it), then they let me work it out. Until then they're skeptical.

My guess is that the tower didn't know you had the traffic in sight and got all uppity thinking you didn't know they were there. That said, if they're on top of what's going on in their control zone, they should've seen you weren't in conflict, and had no issue.

Disclaimer... I'm no controller and have no idea what they're dealing with.

Sounds Like you did just fine

You are responsible for flying the plane and using good judgement in executing your responsibility. The controller is in the real time situation too and probably thought your turn was going to compromise what was in the controller's mind of how things should proceed and responded with the first thing that came to mind. I wouldn't take it too much to heart as a precedent setting event. You probably have much more experience than the controller but they need a little slack for being human as well in how they deal with their responsibility.

Bob Axsom

The controller did not tell you to follow traffic cleared for the visual. You should have maintained the downwind heading, until advised to do different.

As a former ATC, if I sequenced you (i.e. #2 following) and you acknowledged you had the traffic, you did nothing wrong. You still weren't cleared to land, but turning base at your discretion following #1 is what I would have expected you to do.

A local controller is not suppose to issue any instructions until they have you in sight. They can use phraseology like, "not in sight, continue, traffic is...."

As you know, local controllers get to know the local a/c pretty good. If I know it's a flight school and it's busy, or I know that a particular pilot has a habit of cutting corners or allowing proper spacing, I may say, "extend downwind, I'll call you base."

The best thing to do in these situations, once you are on the ground. Call the tower and ask if you can stop by. Tell them your side of the story and ask for their's for future understanding. He most likely made a mistake, so you don't want to belabor the point. But there may have been other circumstances that you weren't aware of either.

Most tower controllers loved to have the pilots stop by. Unfortunately, the current security regulations get in the way. I used to find that having a student pilot sit in the tower, watch the operations, and interact with the controllers for an hour or so, was a great way to relieve a student pilot's anxiety to talking with controllers.

I would have come to the same conclusion as the OP.

True, "...#2 to land..." is not "cleared to land", but unless told otherwise, I can sure turn in behind #1 whenever I want.

Only thing I would have done differently is let the tower know that I had #1 in sight.

Denase said:

The controller did not tell you to follow traffic cleared for the visual. You should have maintained the downwind heading, until advised to do different.

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"Cleared for the visual (approach)" is an IFR term... not all pilots are familiar.

A tower controller should never issue an ambiguous instruction. The instruction issued implies clearance to turn base at your discretion, but he wanted you to report the traffic in sight. The controller should have said "You are number two for landing, extend your downwind (for spacing) (I'll call your base) (report traffic in sight) (etc).

A more complete sequence would be as such:

Tower: "[Callsign] You are number two for landing (please report the traffic in sight is implied)"

Aircraft "Number two, traffic in sight [Callsign]"

Tower: "[Callsign] Cleared to land, number two"

My two cents ... and worth it.

Don

Denase said:

The controller did not tell you to follow traffic cleared for the visual. You should have maintained the downwind heading, until advised to do different.

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Negative on that, I have had more than one controller give me extend downwind and EXPECT, my discretion for turning base. The first time this happened I almost exited his airspace and when I asked, he said, "i said extend not maintain until..." that lesson was never forgotten. Granted this was a long time ago, but when I told my instrument instructor at the time, he said "you've have been had" and smiled.

As mentioned, I call have traffic and turn to base.

Awaiting controller POV. . . .got it from above, looks like formation postings.

At my home base (LZU) the controllers are very explicit if they want you to continue downwind:

i.e. "2JP extend your downwind, I'll call your base".

They often forget about you, in which case a simple "2JP is extended downwind" is a gentle reminder for them if you feel like that is the case.

The controller may have have instructed "follow the Cessna" (I don't recall). I have similar episodes where "follow" does not imply an instruction.

What I'm looking for is not the practical interpretation, but the legal interpretation from an ATC. What do the FARS/CARS say about this?

And yes, this was a new controller... probably a trainee.

I do know that "Cleared to the Downwind" does NOT imply that you can turn base and final without further instruction.

Also, "Cleared for the Overhead Break" does NOT necessarily imply a landing clearance even though general opinion is that the Overhead Break IS supposed to be a single maneuver to landing. Some ATC interpret formation maneuvers differently than others since they have no formal training in what to expect.

This must be a Canadian thing. I have never heard a US tower say "cleared to downwind".

BobTurner said:

This must be a Canadian thing. I have never heard a US tower say "cleared to downwind".

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But it is very common to hear a US controller say "NXXXX enter a left/right downwind for runway XX"

I've flown a bit in Canada, and things are a little bit different there than in the US. I don't think that has an impact on the issue at hand however.

I'm a bit unclear as to the content of your inital clearance from the tower. If you were "cleared to enter the downwind", which I have never heard verbatim, you might have clarified what the controller wanted from you. Once you were told you were number 2 behind the Cessna IMO that was an "ambiguous" landing clearance and you should have questioned it.

What I usually do with what I consider an ambiguous clearance, or if I'm simply unsure what was intended, is reply with what I think the controller meant, or - with what I want to hear. In this case "RV123 cleared to land 27, number 2, traffic in sight". I'd have to look up the exact expected terminology per Canadian regs, but the above technique works well. It may cue the controller to clarify his/her statement and you get what you want/expect, or you get a "negative - do X". Either way things should be clear at that point. I've had great success with that simple process all over the world, especially in the Middle East, where ambiguous clearances seem to be the rule rather than the exception...

Doug

the CARS? tough to find an answer!

Vern, I doubt you'll find anything specific enough in the CARS...lotsa 'shall' this n' that.

It was nice to bump into you a month or so ago in Vernon; it makes me wonder if you are talking about Kelowna.!!!
As Bob has noted, places with lots of traffic & training tend to 'overcontrol' a bit....and call your every move.
The Kelowna tower has to deal with foreign pilot trainees who may turn base in front of an approaching jet on a long final, so they are vigilant about that to be sure.
I think the exact verbage could have been better....either 'follow the cessna', or 'I'll call your base' is what I would expect to hear.
I absence of either, you are both in a grey area, so I probably would have done the same as you, right or wrong.

Some controllers think Rv's travel at 285 kts all the time, or that all homebuilts are piloted by 'amateurs'.
all we can do is aviate, navigate, and lots of communicate!

Compliance with Air Traffic Control Instructions and Clearances

602.31 (1) Subject to subsection (3), the pilot-in command of an aircraft shall

(a) comply with and acknowledge, to the appropriate air traffic control unit, all of the air traffic control instructions directed to and received by the pilot-in-command; and

(b) comply with all of the air traffic control clearances received and accepted by the pilot-in-command and

(i) subject to subsection (2), in the case of an IFR flight, read back to the appropriate air traffic control unit the text of any air traffic control clearance received, and

(ii) in the case of a VFR flight, read back to the appropriate air traffic control unit the text of any air traffic control clearance received, when so requested by the air traffic control unit

or...just for fun...

“air traffic control clearance”
“air traffic control clearance” means an authorization issued by an air traffic control unit that authorizes an aircraft to proceed within controlled airspace in accordance with the conditions specified by that unit; (autorisation du contrôle de la circulation aérienne)


etc. etc.

You did nothing wrong. That said, unless they tell you to follow traffic, just fly a normal pattern (ie dont turn a short base). If I had to guess, they didnt think theyd have 3000ft when you touched down and they decided to take it out on you.

Traffic in sight

Well, I learned something from this thread - I never realized that controllers were looking for me to let them know that I had the other traffic in sight when they said "number 2 for 17" or something like that. Seems pretty reasonable now that I think about it. Thanks!

I asked my wife who is a controller at a class "B" out bere in the west. They talked about your question in the break room (you are famious). Here is there unoffical, not approved, strictly Non-sanctioned, do not rely on or quote them, fly at your own risk opinion.


No he was right.....like I said they have lowered the bar tremendously. When you are told "number 2 following a cessna" he should have said "I have the cessna insight, number 2, cleared to land" Then let the controller correct him if that's not what he wants. The way the controller said it was wierd, should have been "follow a cessna on a mile final, number 2, cleared to land" it's his responsibility to keep the spacing and if he does't well then he goes around...simple as that.



Here is a ATC related question that I have not been able to get a satisfactory answer for.

Scenario:

The Tower clears you Downwind left for Runway 27. Once established, the Tower calls "you are number 2 for landing, behind the Cessna turning final".

What I did was wait for the Cessna to pass, then I started to turn Base with the intent of following him in.

The tower calls "you were not cleared to turn base, extend your downwind!", which I then did. In fact, I made a point of extending the downwind so long, that I almost exited the control zone before I called "long downwind Runway 27".

Basically what others have said.

You did good

vlittle said:

What I did was wait for the Cessna to pass, then I started to turn Base with the intent of following him in.

The tower calls "you were not cleared to turn base, extend your downwind!", which I then did. In fact, I made a point of extending the downwind so long, that I almost exited the control zone before I called "long downwind Runway 27".

Click to expand...

I fly primarily out of a pretty busy airport in the SF Bay Area (KPAO) and my experience is that if they say you're #2 and you call traffic in sight, you follow that traffic in and do your own spacing. I get a lot of "extend upwind" or "extend downwind" or "I'll call your base" if I'm not to follow my traffic for spacing for arrivals, departures, etc. Otherwise, I follow the leader.

This being said, though, I've found that there are local traditions about how a tower manages traffic. KSQL, which is a contract FAA tower just 10 miles north, feels completely different.

As another poster said, if it feels weird, like a too-extended downwind, a gentle "430WB on extended downwind" will get a useful response. The controllers at times juggle lots of balls, esp when the field is busy.