Van's Air Force
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Urethane or Enamel?
- Thread starter Sig600
- Start date
jjconstant
Well Known Member
I didn't paint my plane, but...
...my understanding is that urethane can be nasty stuff and requires a fresh air breathing system. I could easily be wrong but I would suggest checking carefully about the risks of each. I just lost a friend on July 4 to cancer and have 3 others dealing with the disease. One or two of them had rather relaxed and dismissive attitudes, as well as genuine ignorance from lack of data about risky substances and it has probably caught up with them, but that could also be me just looking for a sense of control over a disease that has affected so many...
I'm probably hyper sensitive about this right now, but please be careful and equip yourself appropriately to the substance you're exposing yourself to.
...my understanding is that urethane can be nasty stuff and requires a fresh air breathing system. I could easily be wrong but I would suggest checking carefully about the risks of each. I just lost a friend on July 4 to cancer and have 3 others dealing with the disease. One or two of them had rather relaxed and dismissive attitudes, as well as genuine ignorance from lack of data about risky substances and it has probably caught up with them, but that could also be me just looking for a sense of control over a disease that has affected so many...
I'm probably hyper sensitive about this right now, but please be careful and equip yourself appropriately to the substance you're exposing yourself to.
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John Clark
Well Known Member
Modern paint systems are a bit more complex than the old days of enamel or lacquer. Historically, "enamels" self leveled, not requiring buffing after application. Lacquers needed to be "color sanded" and buffed to shine. Now it comes down to "single stage" or "two stage" meaning does it have a clearcoat on top of the color for the shine factor. In many modern finishes the color coat is waterborne, making it more environmentally friendly, but it dries flat, without any shine. The clearcoat is usually a two part (catalyzed) product.
Any of these systems should be treated very carefully due to the chemical content and the particulate matter that can be inhaled. I share Jeremy's concern for the dangers of painting and chemical exposure. Several years ago a friend of mine, a PhD chemist and serious car-guy, was getting ready to paint some parts for a restoration project. I found him reading the fine print on the back of a can of urethane, and there is a lot of fine print. He looked up and gave the following scholarly summary, "This is evil s***!"
John Clark ATP, CFI
Aviator & Gearhead
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
Any of these systems should be treated very carefully due to the chemical content and the particulate matter that can be inhaled. I share Jeremy's concern for the dangers of painting and chemical exposure. Several years ago a friend of mine, a PhD chemist and serious car-guy, was getting ready to paint some parts for a restoration project. I found him reading the fine print on the back of a can of urethane, and there is a lot of fine print. He looked up and gave the following scholarly summary, "This is evil s***!"
John Clark ATP, CFI
Aviator & Gearhead
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
mannanj
Well Known Member
Either Or
My friend that painted my RV used at my suggestion, SW "Acry-Glo".
It is;
1. paint,
2. hardener,
3 reducer.
It is NOT base coat-clear coat.
He loved it in that he could control drying times extremly well in varying temps. He said it leveled out quickly and dried to the touch fast. He said that he liked it much better than the PPG that he had been using.
It seems hard as nails and smashed bugs wiped right off after I flew it two days after painting.
My friend that painted my RV used at my suggestion, SW "Acry-Glo".
It is;
1. paint,
2. hardener,
3 reducer.
It is NOT base coat-clear coat.
He loved it in that he could control drying times extremly well in varying temps. He said it leveled out quickly and dried to the touch fast. He said that he liked it much better than the PPG that he had been using.
It seems hard as nails and smashed bugs wiped right off after I flew it two days after painting.
fstringham7a
Well Known Member
RE: OR .......
Before you make your final decision check out these folks and their products. I have painted two planes (RV7A and a Breezy) using their system. They now have a paint that is sandable and can be buffed.....
http://www.stewartsystems.aero/default.aspx
To be successful (no matter what paint you use) you will need a good compressor/excellent paint gun/tons of masking tape/ plus.......... and a lot of patiences...........and shot some practice panels if you have never painted with this type of paint before.
Stewart's is a water boune paint developed for the space industry. It is safe compared to high VOC paints/easy clean up......
Before you make your final decision check out these folks and their products. I have painted two planes (RV7A and a Breezy) using their system. They now have a paint that is sandable and can be buffed.....
http://www.stewartsystems.aero/default.aspx
To be successful (no matter what paint you use) you will need a good compressor/excellent paint gun/tons of masking tape/ plus.......... and a lot of patiences...........and shot some practice panels if you have never painted with this type of paint before.
Stewart's is a water boune paint developed for the space industry. It is safe compared to high VOC paints/easy clean up......
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Kyle Boatright
Well Known Member
Frank,
The question I have with Stewart Systems is what is its long term performance? How long have those two airplanes been painted, and how does the paint look today?
Also, whenever I read comments about SS, I get the sense it is more finicky to apply than most top-coats. Comments?
To answer the OP's question, enamels are obsolete. A catalyzed urethane is the way to go, but you do need to wear the required PPE. For <$100 bucks, you can buy a tyvek painting suit to protect everything but your face, hands, and lungs, and also build a hooded forced air breathing system using a bathroom exhaust fan and some other items you can get at Home Depot.
One caveat - painting my airplane was the single most time consuming, frustrating, and rewarding experience of the whole build process. The learning curve is VERY steep. I suspect I could paint a second airplane in half the time and with 1/3 less paint (I wasted a lot of paint) than the first one required.
fstringham7a
Well Known Member
RE: ?????
Hi Kyle
I was very frustrated with their paint and I will say that my 7A is probably not a 10. But I gave it the old experimental try. The Breezy came out much better as the old learning curve was getting less steep. They now have a new paint that is easier to shoot, sandable and can be buffed. My plane has been in service since 2009 so I am not sure what it will look like in twenty years. Heck I am not sure how I will look in twenty years. It is a single stage system that I found ....if you follow the instructions.....will give great results. My problem was being one of the early adopters where Stewart was also developing their knowledge base. So If I were to shoot my plane today I have no doubt it would come out Much Better.......and yes I would use their system again!!!!! Why .... much safer than high VOC paints, easy clean up, easy to work with at all levels of the process, a great company in Stewart's that will help you every step of the way, and with their new Eckocrylic paint is much more forgiving than the paint I shot.
Their paint comes from the aerospace industry so who knows how long it will hold up. As a geezer it will out last me!!!!!!!!!!!
"One caveat - painting my airplane was the single most time consuming, frustrating, and rewarding experience of the whole build process. The learning curve is VERY steep. I suspect I could paint a second airplane in half the time and with 1/3 less paint (I wasted a lot of paint) than the first one required." ......and yes I agree with you here 100000000%
Here is my ever so humble paint output.....
Breezy Pix
RV7A Pix
Finally, my point was to suggest another possibility not to say this is the end all of end all paint systems to use............
Hi Kyle
I was very frustrated with their paint and I will say that my 7A is probably not a 10. But I gave it the old experimental try. The Breezy came out much better as the old learning curve was getting less steep. They now have a new paint that is easier to shoot, sandable and can be buffed. My plane has been in service since 2009 so I am not sure what it will look like in twenty years. Heck I am not sure how I will look in twenty years. It is a single stage system that I found ....if you follow the instructions.....will give great results. My problem was being one of the early adopters where Stewart was also developing their knowledge base. So If I were to shoot my plane today I have no doubt it would come out Much Better.......and yes I would use their system again!!!!! Why .... much safer than high VOC paints, easy clean up, easy to work with at all levels of the process, a great company in Stewart's that will help you every step of the way, and with their new Eckocrylic paint is much more forgiving than the paint I shot.
Their paint comes from the aerospace industry so who knows how long it will hold up. As a geezer it will out last me!!!!!!!!!!!
"One caveat - painting my airplane was the single most time consuming, frustrating, and rewarding experience of the whole build process. The learning curve is VERY steep. I suspect I could paint a second airplane in half the time and with 1/3 less paint (I wasted a lot of paint) than the first one required." ......and yes I agree with you here 100000000%
Here is my ever so humble paint output.....
Breezy Pix
RV7A Pix
Finally, my point was to suggest another possibility not to say this is the end all of end all paint systems to use............
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1. Have you ever sprayed anything?
2. Have a go with primer.....
3. It's not difficult - if you use a simple 2 part - not 2 pack primer, if it goes wrong, get it off with cellulose.
4. Provided you use an air fed HVLP gun, set at about 40psi from a good sized receiver - say a 30 gallon receiver, you should get good results.
5. Get an air fed mask, it makes sense. The 2 pack stuff isn't nice, however most of the problems occur when people make their living from spraying rather than the small amounts we do.
6. HVLP makes things so much easier. Less overspray. less paint, easier to lay down a good coat.
2. Have a go with primer.....
3. It's not difficult - if you use a simple 2 part - not 2 pack primer, if it goes wrong, get it off with cellulose.
4. Provided you use an air fed HVLP gun, set at about 40psi from a good sized receiver - say a 30 gallon receiver, you should get good results.
5. Get an air fed mask, it makes sense. The 2 pack stuff isn't nice, however most of the problems occur when people make their living from spraying rather than the small amounts we do.
6. HVLP makes things so much easier. Less overspray. less paint, easier to lay down a good coat.
Paul K
Well Known Member
There are so many questions to ask but you really need to find a very high end body shop that specializes in hot rods or find one that is recommended by the high end car dealers in your area. Become their friend, buy the paint from them, see if they will let you watch their painter, might even end up hiring them to paint the big parts. Even better to find one who is a pilot!
As so many have already said, urethane is the way to go if you want that professional look and, base / clear is the way to go if you want metallic.
I have never used any of the water based systems but a friend just painted his Bonanza with a water based paint and was very unhappy with it, removed it, and repainted it with the same water stuff again. I looked at it about a month ago and it was very rough, almost textured! Very bad orange peel. He has painted cars before with urethane but isn't allowed to use it where his Bonanza is parked. Not a testimonial in any way but sure looks like water based paints are a different animal and need to be learned.
Finally, a really well vented paint booth helps with air quality but I agree that a positive air supply mask is advisable.
All of this is just my humble opinion, with years of painting experience.
As so many have already said, urethane is the way to go if you want that professional look and, base / clear is the way to go if you want metallic.
I have never used any of the water based systems but a friend just painted his Bonanza with a water based paint and was very unhappy with it, removed it, and repainted it with the same water stuff again. I looked at it about a month ago and it was very rough, almost textured! Very bad orange peel. He has painted cars before with urethane but isn't allowed to use it where his Bonanza is parked. Not a testimonial in any way but sure looks like water based paints are a different animal and need to be learned.
Finally, a really well vented paint booth helps with air quality but I agree that a positive air supply mask is advisable.
All of this is just my humble opinion, with years of painting experience.
This is the paint system recommended by some auto painters, obviously with prep/primer/etc.
http://www.tcpglobal.com/restorationshop/rspacrylic.aspx
fstringham7a
Well Known Member
RE:helped
I would like to take the credit for the Breezy ... But I just helped build it and did the painting..... We used the Stewart System cloth covering system. Not bad for the groups first shot at rag wing stuff..... It is an absolute ball to ride in this bird.
I would like to take the credit for the Breezy ... But I just helped build it and did the painting..... We used the Stewart System cloth covering system. Not bad for the groups first shot at rag wing stuff..... It is an absolute ball to ride in this bird.
Wow Frank, when did you find time to build a Breezy? Seems like just yesterday you were painting the -7.
BTW, in case you can't tell, I want one.
I saw an RV-8 @ Arlington last year that was painted in Petit Easypoxy.
It's used on boats and industrial applications.
They don't have a lot of color options, but I like some of them, so I tried the 'Platinum' on my wing tips today.
I tried rolling it on with a knock down brushing as per their website,...didn't work well for me, but that's on the bottom. The more it dries, the less bad it looks.
I thinned it and sprayed it on the tops, now that worked well.
No this is not going to be an award winning paint job, it's a do it yourself paint job. But it is shiney and smooth with a tint similar to aluminum, so I'm happy.
It was easy to do and you can't beat the price. Here is a pull for their site and a color chart:
Easypoxy is a highly rated, one-part polyurethane topside paint improved by the addition of silicone for a brilliant shine and easy brushability. It also contains ultraviolet filters which enhance the already superior gloss retention and durability of polyurethane. This results in a topside finish that is exceptionally easy to apply and produces a lasting gelcoat-like brilliance, with a minimum of effort. Easypoxy is available in white and twenty-five popular topside colors.
Use 120 thinner for brushing and clean-up. Use 121 thinner for spraying.
http://images.jamestowndistributors.com/images/multi/pettit/large/1329s.jpg
It's used on boats and industrial applications.
They don't have a lot of color options, but I like some of them, so I tried the 'Platinum' on my wing tips today.
I tried rolling it on with a knock down brushing as per their website,...didn't work well for me, but that's on the bottom. The more it dries, the less bad it looks.
I thinned it and sprayed it on the tops, now that worked well.
No this is not going to be an award winning paint job, it's a do it yourself paint job. But it is shiney and smooth with a tint similar to aluminum, so I'm happy.
It was easy to do and you can't beat the price. Here is a pull for their site and a color chart:
Easypoxy is a highly rated, one-part polyurethane topside paint improved by the addition of silicone for a brilliant shine and easy brushability. It also contains ultraviolet filters which enhance the already superior gloss retention and durability of polyurethane. This results in a topside finish that is exceptionally easy to apply and produces a lasting gelcoat-like brilliance, with a minimum of effort. Easypoxy is available in white and twenty-five popular topside colors.
Use 120 thinner for brushing and clean-up. Use 121 thinner for spraying.
http://images.jamestowndistributors.com/images/multi/pettit/large/1329s.jpg
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