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Closed Runway?

DanH

Legacy Member
Mentor
Had an interesting experience this AM.

Needed to work an auto auction in Pensacola. Usually I go into KPNS, but a bit of looking found 83J, Coastal Airport, to be only 7 miles away. Hey, I like grass strips, so why not?

Did the usual preflght planning, which for me is a review of a sectional on Skyvector, the airport information on Airnav, and morning brief on Weathermeister.

As is my habit, I checked destination NOTAMs using the https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov link on Airnav, and later, on Weathermeister.

Landed at 9AM, and was met by a person who insisted the airport had been closed for a month. He just shrugged off the the concept of no published NOTAM. He did want to know if I had seen "the X's". I had not, and told him so. He demanded I leave immediately. Having seen no safety issue, I did so.

There were in fact X's made of some thin strips, located in the tall grass in the overrun areas prior to the displaced thresholds. They were visible from overhead, but were invisible from anywhere in a normal pattern, probably because of the grass length.

Yes, I've filed a NASA ASRS form. I'm not sure I violated anything, give the lack of a closure NOTAM, and the improper marking, but hey, it can't hurt, and it strikes me as a good note to put in the system.

Comments?

POSTSCRIPT: Just checked the pilotweb.nas.ffa.gov site again. Airport closure NOTAM appears to have been posted at 1747 zulu... "!GNV 09/010 83J AD AIRPORT CLSD 1509011747-PERM"
 
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Oops

If I read that correctly, the NOTAM popped during your flight itself?

If you have to mess up, thats the way to do it. Better than having a Presidential TFR pop hot during cruise! :)
 
Dan, how is your relationship with the local FSDO? ASRS has some value, but it all comes down to what kind of mood the feds are in. Hope you are one of the good guys on their Santa knows list.
 
If I read that correctly, the NOTAM popped during your flight itself?

If you have to mess up, thats the way to do it. Better than having a Presidential TFR pop hot during cruise! :)

He landed at 9am. The notam was published at 17:47 zulu. That's noon:47 local right? Seems like they published it after he made a comment about it to the guy that came over to ask him to leave.
 
He landed at 9am. The notam was published at 17:47 zulu. That's noon:47 local right? Seems like they published it after he made a comment about it to the guy that came over to ask him to leave.

Even better way to 'mess up'. Thanks for doing the math for me, it was inconvenient for me to take my boots off..
 
A few hours AFTER you landed is surely a lot different than a MONTH prior.

Sometimes I wish my clock worked this way.
 
Gee Paul----all that new Garmin stuff you have should have a calculator in it---or an abacas!
Tom

He needs to stay off the internet and get back to work wiring!


If I was published as being closed via a notam, and clearly marked, it wasn't really closed. Word of mouth and crystal balls do not suffice in aviation.
 
Reminds me of my airport here in Dahlonega. They issue a runway closure notam usually about 12 minutes before it is due to be closed.

HOWEVER.....

We will be getting completely resurfaced next month and the airport will be closed, and NOTAM"d so, starting on Septmeber 9th thru the 16th.
 
new school

Dan,

I landed there a year ago and found it hard to believe that is would be shut down. I called the number on airnav and got a lady on the phone who works there. She claimed the County School board just purchased the land and a new middle school is going up right where the runway is. All other aircraft have either left or about to leave as bulldoziers are coming soon.

Guess you can do what ever you want with your private runway.
 
In the past I have looked for any FARs that prohibit operation on a closed runway. I have not found any such regulation. Now the airport management or owners may not take kindly to it.

Of course there are always the catchall things but it seems to me that operating off a closed runway would be similar to operating off airport. Yes, I have operated extensively from xed out runways. I have also operated extensively from taxiways, even at towered airports. The tower did not clear me to land on the taxiway but didn't say I couldn't and probably gave some kind of advisory about "at the pilot's risk".
 
I dont think this is uncommon.

Try looking up 46N

That airport has been "closed" for years.....but it appears to be usable when searching NOTAMS.
 
Dan,

....

Guess you can do what ever you want with your private runway.

Yes, and one thing you can't do is get a NOTAM published.

We have tried with our Airpark when the runway is being worked on, but the FAA won't issue a NOTAM for a private, restricted airport. :rolleyes:

We end up just letting Tucson Approach know by phone.

We did get a NOTAM for towing paragliders once, but the NOTAM was reference to the VOR rather than our airport...
 
He landed at 9am. The notam was published at 17:47 zulu. That's noon:47 local right? Seems like they published it after he made a comment about it to the guy that came over to ask him to leave.

Yep, somebody got on the phone.

I'm not sure exactly when the FAA considers a public runway officially closed, but if it's when the NOTAM is published, this one didn't close until 3 hours and 40 minutes after I left ;)

This IQ 5010 is the record that Airnav and others get their data from.

I've already alerted Airnav.
 
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I dont think this is uncommon.

Try looking up 46N

That airport has been "closed" for years.....but it appears to be usable when searching NOTAMS.

Once a notam appears in the hard copy book "notices to airmen" the FAA may take it off the 'teletype' circuit. You need to call FSS and specifically ask them to look in the book for old notams.
 
Maybe because the owners never updated the FAA Master Record?

http://www.gcr1.com/5010web/airport.cfm?Site=46N&AptSecNum=0

Looks like 83J has not been updated either -

http://www.gcr1.com/5010web/airport.cfm?Site=83J&AptSecNum=0

This IQ 5010 is the record that Airnav and others get their data from.

Thanks Gil, i haven't come across that site before. Tons of great info!
I did see where 46N states the need for a PPR, so that makes sense for this airport since developers purchased it years ago and "Closed" the airport. I guess its still a "Private Airport" for them to allow use as needed.

I know Dan started this thread for anothe airport, but all info to share.

Thanks!
 
Forms...

Thanks Gil, i haven't come across that site before. Tons of great info!
I did see where 46N states the need for a PPR, so that makes sense for this airport since developers purchased it years ago and "Closed" the airport. I guess its still a "Private Airport" for them to allow use as needed.

I know Dan started this thread for another airport, but all info to share.

Thanks!

Perhaps the owners don't know about this FAA form that is used to de-activate an airport. :)

http://www.gcr1.com/5010web/7480-1.pdf

I presume this also updates sectional charts and data.

Just like when I worked for big aerospace companies, there is a form for everything.
 
Had an interesting experience this AM.

There were in fact X's made of some thin strips, located in the tall grass in the overrun areas prior to the displaced thresholds. They were visible from overhead, but were invisible from anywhere in a normal pattern, probably because of the grass length.

Comments?

If the X was anything like these on McKenzie Bridge 00S, I didn't see them until I walked within 30 feet. And this grass is short.

2mz9zr6.jpg


http://tinypic.com/r/2mz9zr6/8
 
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Sorry to hear about Coastal closing. I grew up in Gulf Breeze, just outside Pensacola. The father of a squadron mate of mine in the Reserves owned and ran it for years back in the 70's and 80's. Some of my fondest memories of my youth are going out there with my Naval Aviator father and kicking tires and watching the flurry of activity.

The owners then had a courtesy car to loan people to land there and go to the nearby Naval Aviation Museum at NAS.

Now back to pounding rivets....
 
question

Regarding Icarus earlier post about lumbering into a TFR during cruise that sprang up after your takeoff. My question... if it's not there when you do preflight planning including the chat with FSS... and you're not using ATC services or flight following... can you get busted for it? Has this ever happened to anyone? Wonder what the feds position would be.

And regarding closed airports... I did have a controller in Greensboro, NC inform me that my destination airport was closed for runway work, (I had failed to check the notams for this airport). He did say to me "they have some very nice taxiways." I passed and landed at another field.
 
Regarding Icarus earlier post about lumbering into a TFR during cruise that sprang up after your takeoff. My question... if it's not there when you do preflight planning including the chat with FSS... and you're not using ATC services or flight following... can you get busted for it? Has this ever happened to anyone? Wonder what the feds position would be.

It is entirely possible, and does in fact happen. I don't know personally of any pilot who was violated, but if it's a presidential pop up you will be intercepted and ramp checked. I would invite some of the guys like CapFlyer who are still trudging around the 'Special Use Airspace' in the bowels of DC. They are sure to have some good stories.
 
Reminds me of my airport here in Dahlonega. They issue a runway closure notam usually about 12 minutes before it is due to be closed.

HOWEVER.....

We will be getting completely resurfaced next month and the airport will be closed, and NOTAM"d so, starting on Septmeber 9th thru the 16th.

I knew this was coming....same thought I had when I read Dan's post. Welcome to our world.
 
I stumbled across a closed runway notam while in flight to a destination airport by ads-b. As I recall closed about 30 min after my departure. Don't remember when it was published though. Sure didn't see it when pre flight planning but maybe I missed something. :eek:
 
Closed Runway

Dan,

I was supposed to fly to my parent's house a few years ago. I had checked notams and was surprised when I arrived and there was a big "X" on the runway. So, I flew to the next strip a few miles away and landed. I thought maybe I had missed the notam, so I checked again. Nothing... So, I called the airport and the new airport manager was happy to tell me they had gotten a grant to do some maintenance. So, I asked when they had filed the notam. The guy literally said, "Filed a what?" He had no clue! This airport was run by the city and they had hired a manager that was a non-pilot and not aviation minded. He DID NOT know what a notam was. We had a short tutorial session on what notams are and why they are important to aviation safety. So, let's be careful out there, the world is full of surprises.

Dennis
 
but if it's a presidential pop up you will be intercepted and ramp checked.

Not exactly the same as a GA scenario, but I had this happen while supporting hurricane Katrina (was reviewing old log book entries recently with the 10 yr anniversary). We would depart Baton Rouge in the AM and fly all day in NO until reaching our duty limit, so if it wasn't NOTAMd when we left... I was transporting 2 cardiac patients from NO to Baton Rouge. I stayed under the Baton Rouge class C, but was listening to approach. Approach queried a VFR aircraft flying a "similar" heading and altitude. After the 2nd or 3rd attempt at contact (and the controller's pitch increasing each call), I called back with my position, alt/hdg. Yup, it was me in a TFR for GW:eek:. The controller just laughed and told me I almost had a close up of an F-16. Again, a bit different than a GA scenario, but if something is published while you are enroute (and you can prove it), I don't see you could be violated. Escorted and give some special attention, yes.

Interestingly enough, the rest of the day I was making loops between the I10 interchange and NO Int - where all the folks were being taken. On my initial tower call, the controller queried me if I would accept landing opposite a heavy. Being a helicopter I accepted. It was pretty neat to be on the approach end of a runway and see a 747 on final on the other. Even neater when we noticed on landing roll that the 747 was AF1:D
 
Dan,
I believe you abided by the "reasonable man" concept. You checked NOTAMs before flight. Also, since (I believe) Airnav includes latest AFD info plus updates, you performed proper preflight planning. That's pretty much what we're expected to do.

I can't quote the FAR, but I'm confident that language regarding runway closure X markings include some requirement that Xs be prominently visible from the air. Apparently they didn't check that square, or I'm sure you would have seen it.

Great story, glad it turned out well. Thanks for the safety lesson, Dan.
 
Also, since (I believe) Airnav includes latest AFD info plus updates, you performed proper preflight planning.

Airnav provides a one-click link directly to the official FAA NOTAM page for that airport. Can't get any more current.

If you'll excuse the plug, I am a huge fan of Weathermeister. In addition to everything else, Dan C has the NOTAMs displayed as you see here....which makes it pretty hard to miss a closed destination.


All browsers record clicks to a page destination, with the time, plus Weathermeister records a discrete briefing number. I would like to think either would serve as evidence of preflight planning.

I can't quote the FAR, but I'm confident that language regarding runway closure X markings include some requirement that Xs be prominently visible from the air. Apparently they didn't check that square, or I'm sure you would have seen it.

Arrived from the north, transitioned to a downwind for 36. First time into a new-to-me grass strip with displaced thresholds, so you can bet I was eyeballing the place.
 
Not exactly the same as a GA scenario,

Might be the understatement of the week right there... would have made a better story if you had been intercepted by a -16! I bet your ramp check would have been perfunctory at best!

Still waiting for CapFlyer to chime in...where are you Mike! I seem to remember you volunteering to be intercepted once or twice for practice? No?
 
Airnav provides a one-click link directly to the official FAA NOTAM page for that airport. Can't get any more current.


Sadly I don't think this is true. The actual TFR information on the tfr.faa.gov page has a disclaimer at the bottom. I used to use a shortcut to this page on my smartphone for preflighting but now I am less comfortable with it. I always get a recorded "standard VFR briefing" when I go anywhere further than the local area.

I presume we are speaking about the same page. Here is an example. The actual disclaimer is painted with a bright red background so you can't miss it. The format was lost when I copied it for this post.


Other Information: Top
ARTCC: ZAU - Chicago Center
Point of Contact: FOX LAKE POLICE DEPARTMENT
Telephone 847-587-3100
Authority: Title 14 CFR section 91.137(a)(1)



Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.



EDIT: Ah, I see the notam page you are speaking about. Entirely different from the TFR page. Good to know.
 
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Several years ago, Jenny and I were coming home but had to divert to an airport 30 miles south of here...Swainsboro, Ga. because of thunderstorms.

It was early July and as I circled to downwind, I noticed several cars and pickups along the runway, on the pavement. There were no Notams, no X's on the ends of the runway but I didn't dare to land with cars on the runway.

I turned and dodged thunderstorms and made it home.

I called the city manager and he told me that they were setting up fireworks displays for that evening. I asked about the X's or notams but he didn't know what they were.

Yes, I filled out the NASA form.

Best,
 
Sad...

Had an interesting experience this AM.

Needed to work an auto auction in Pensacola. Usually I go into KPNS, but a bit of looking found 83J, Coastal Airport, to be only 7 miles away. Hey, I like grass strips, so why not?

Did the usual preflght planning, which for me is a review of a sectional on Skyvector, the airport information on Airnav, and morning brief on Weathermeister.

As is my habit, I checked destination NOTAMs using the https://pilotweb.nas.faa.gov link on Airnav, and later, on Weathermeister.

Landed at 9AM, and was met by a person who insisted the airport had been closed for a month. He just shrugged off the the concept of no published NOTAM. He did want to know if I had seen "the X's". I had not, and told him so. He demanded I leave immediately. Having seen no safety issue, I did so.

There were in fact X's made of some thin strips, located in the tall grass in the overrun areas prior to the displaced thresholds. They were visible from overhead, but were invisible from anywhere in a normal pattern, probably because of the grass length.

Yes, I've filed a NASA ASRS form. I'm not sure I violated anything, give the lack of a closure NOTAM, and the improper marking, but hey, it can't hurt, and it strikes me as a good note to put in the system.

Comments?

POSTSCRIPT: Just checked the pilotweb.nas.ffa.gov site again. Airport closure NOTAM appears to have been posted at 1747 zulu... "!GNV 09/010 83J AD AIRPORT CLSD 1509011747-PERM"

Dan,
Dang it, another great airport closing it's doors. Coastal was a regular stop in my youth and I've towed banners out of there many times back in the day. One of my mentors for going in the Military was a CFI there and former A-1 Sandy in Viet Nam (Dave G.).
Great Airport!
V/R
Smokey

PS: As far as NOTAM's go, you are only responsible for available, current information at time of departure. Getting FSS NOTAM updates is always a nice technique but not mandatory. Good call on the NASA form. Sounds like a no harm no foul scenario.
 
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