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Marvel Shebler Jet Size

aerial

Active Member
Marvel Schebler Jet Size

I have a Marvel Schebler MA-4 varitey on an O-320 150hp and my mechanic recommend having the main drilled out. Our local carb guy stepped it up 14% but it now runs at 10+gph and is way too rich. I have acquired another jet but the numbers don't match.

Can anyone help me decifer the jet sizes? The stock jet had 47 and 813 stamped on the nut. My new(used) jet has 47 and 773 stamped on the nut. The new 47/773 has more intermediate ports on the shaft which I assume richens the "mid-range" but I want to go down the right path.

Any suggestions.
 
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I don't know the part numbers, but my main jet measured 0.097" and was running very lean after I had the engine rebuilt to 160hp. Bart at Aerosport recommended increasing the size in stages to a maximum of +0.007" (ie diameter = 0.104"). In the drill set I have the next size from .097 is .100, so that is where I'm at right now. Definite improvement, I'll go to the next size up soon.

Pete
 
Too Rich?

aerial said:
I have a Marvel Shebler MA-4 varitey on an O-320 150hp and my mechanic recommend having the main drilled out. Our local carb guy stepped it up 14% but it now runs at 10+gph and is way too rich. I have acquired another jet but the numbers don't match.

Can anyone help me decifer the jet sizes? The stock jet had 47 and 813 stamped on the nut. My new(used) jet has 47 and 773 stamped on the nut. The new 47/773 has more intermediate ports on the shaft which I assume richens the "mid-range" but I want to go down the right path.

Any suggestions.
How are determining too rich? or too lean?
I have a stock 0-360 and flowing 17+ gph on TO, everything else, I pull the red knob back.
I went thru the part number thing while drilling my jet too.
The catalog list part numbers to carb models but don't give sizes.
I checked the original size with a drill bit/index and then went up in 3-4 thousandths increments, per Bart. I'm shooting for a TO EGT of 1300 in a normal climb. What are you trying to get too?
BTW, for reference, I had 2 main jets (different part #)for my carb, they looked identical in every way, except one thousanth different in main hole size.
 
penguin said:
I don't know the part numbers, but my main jet measured 0.097" and was running very lean after I had the engine rebuilt to 160hp. Bart at Aerosport recommended increasing the size in stages to a maximum of +0.007" (ie diameter = 0.104"). In the drill set I have the next size from .097 is .100, so that is where I'm at right now. Definite improvement, I'll go to the next size up soon.

Pete

I'm at .005" over now and can now get on the rich side of peak down low. Below 3K' or so mine wouldn't go rich of peak at anything less than full throttle prior to opening up the nozzle. One more session with a drill bit would probably make it just about right but it is just such a pain in the @%$ to take everything apart that I'm waiting till the next condition inspection. Mine was jumped .003" the first time and then .002" the second.

There is a company that sells fatter jets for these carbs but I couldn't find the name of it to add here. Maybe somebody can help us out on this. Also for what it is worth I read an article after drilling mine stating not to drill out the jets because they are stepped inside and that they will not work properly afterwards. Again, looked on my computer and it looks like this was deleted also. :( Both Mahlon and Bart are suggesting drilling the jets however so I'm not sweating the fact that I did mine. If either of these guys would do it it's good enough for me.
 
PITA

"but it is just such a pain in the @%$ to take everything apart that I'm waiting till the next condition inspection."

Come on Bryan.......
I got my time down to 3 hours for tear down, drill, put back!!
It is a pita.......but worth it when you see the engine run better.

Also, ACS sells the gaskets and lock washers you will need to do this right. I'm lucky too as my -6.......I can reach in from the cowl exit and adjust the idle speed and idle richness.
Not while running of course ;)
Good Luck
 
I have been chasing a rough running engine now for a while. Mag timing, and now jetting. Unfortunately I do not have a EGT or CHT guage, only Oil temp and feel. But it ran really smooth for 40 hours in the spring. I can tell it's rich when it runs smoother by leaning, and my fuel burn goes from 7.6 gph to 10.2 gph in cruise.

I talked to the guys at Precision Airmotive and they are very helpful. On their website they have a link to MSA carburetor applications, then you can go to their catalog and see the part number. Here's the scoop on the two jets I have.

813 - 47 Jet 715cc-725cc/min. flow
773 - 47 Jet 950cc-970cc/min. flow

I was informed the numbers aren't necessarily sequencial, but both jets are for an 0-320 both at each extreme of fuel flow. Thats over a 30% fuel flow increase between jets.
 
Rough Engine -- keep an open mind, cover the bases

I can tell you a story about this issue that burned up about 2 months and $2000.00. When I bought my first RV-4 I didn't like the "carb heat" set up because it didn't really have carb-heat, just the ram air door pulled closed and that was it. So we (my trusty AP IA friend and I) installed a muff on the exhaust, put in some scat and a diverter box, etc. etc. I don't remember every detail of what we did, but it also ended up improving ram air flow in cruise over the initial setup when the carb heat wasn't on.

Fast forward a few weeks and I'm out flying and sense the engine running a little rough; was that me, or did it really stutter? Yep, there it goes again, definitely rough. Did a mag check, Woah! 500 RPM drop on the right mag. (Ground mag checks were perfect.)

Got back, cleaned and gapped the plugs -- they were pretty dirty, and somewat worn -- flew again, same thing. Bought all new plugs -- man these little dudes are expensive when you buy all eight -- fixed it though!

Well, until the third flight, anyway, then rough again. Seemed more likely to happen when it was hot. Tried the mag sw again -- and now the engine just about quit completely when put on the right mag only. Scared the *:&# out of my friend when I did it in the pattern at his grass strip.

Pulled the ole Bendix mag -- had it overhauled, guy who overhauled it found several problems. Put it back on, and then she was fixed.

Well, maybe not, problem came back -- intermittent but getting more frequent. Getting into hotter part of summer seemed to make it worse. Maybe a problem with the mag sw -- chased every possibility with a meter -- all good. Just to make sure, put in two temporary mag toggle switches and isolated out the key switch -- no joy.

Well, it has to be the mag -- the in-flight mag check proves that unequivocally. So screw it, ordered a whole new slick mag kit and harness. Put them on, still same problem.

Okay, let's look at the fuel system, induction system, and carb: carb float level, checked, needle checked, etc, etc. no problem, idle mixture fine--put it back together. Checked for induction leaks -- none. Checked for primer leaks -- none. Went all through the fuel system, no debris or restrictions. I give up, my AP IA friend gives up we both wish we had never seen this plane. (The plane had never, ever run rough for the previous owner. I know this because it was based at my home field and I watched him fly it all the time and flew with him myself several times.)

By now the plane was running rough on every flight and I was getting scared to even fly it. Exept for one flight I took it up to 11,500 feet, much higher than I had been flying -- and it ran great! In fact it ran great at full rich mixture at eleven-five! Hmmmm..

Finally, in desperation I search the furthest crevice of the internet and find a post on the ole' Matronics list about drilling out carb jets -- I seem to remember 41 to 39, but that may not be right, so don't quote me on it. Took the main jet out, took to the workshop of my buddy who's building an RV-8 and has a really good drill press, grit my teeth, we drill it out. And walla -- problem solved. Ran beautifully and never another hiccup.


To me it was a reminder of why we use the word, "experimental". An MA4/O-320 combo designed for use on a slow moving C-172 can have quite a different personality when housed in a tight RV-4 cowling and heated up with fast ram air being forced down its throat. Apparently, the subtle modification to the carb heat/ram air setup combined with warmer temps (may seem counter-intuitive when we're used to thinking about carb heat causing richer mixtures but a master motorcycle mechanic explained to me how heat can also cause leaning with a carb, but I don't remember the specifics) caused the change. Spent a lot of time and money chasing the mag when it never was the problem. (I wonder if Unison had fun destroying my perfectly good Bendix mags I sent them for trade-in?)


aerial said:
I have been chasing a rough running engine now for a while. Mag timing, and now jetting. Unfortunately I do not have a EGT or CHT guage, only Oil temp and feel. But it ran really smooth for 40 hours in the spring. I can tell it's rich when it runs smoother by leaning, and my fuel burn goes from 7.6 gph to 10.2 gph in cruise.

I talked to the guys at Precision Airmotive and they are very helpful. On their website they have a link to MSA carburetor applications, then you can go to their catalog and see the part number. Here's the scoop on the two jets I have.

813 - 47 Jet 715cc-725cc/min. flow
773 - 47 Jet 950cc-970cc/min. flow

I was informed the numbers aren't necessarily sequencial, but both jets are for an 0-320 both at each extreme of fuel flow. Thats over a 30% fuel flow increase between jets.
 
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Thanks for the story. I had begun to feel the same way about this plane and my whole flying experience. I have used this Mustang for a primary trainer and was supposed to sit for my check ride this Thursday. After changing the jet yesterday it ran so bad I did an emergency procedure landing at our strip and I think I scared a few neighbors with my low aggressive slip (no make that 2 slips in each direction) but I was afraid to fly it farther away for a normal approach. It's hard for me to accept that running lean would cause dirty plugs and rough running when from my dirt bike racing days lean meant rpm increase, intermittent revving, and white plugs. I think what has happened now is that I have gone to the opposite extreme and overly rich, but boy does it keep the oil temp cool.
 
Drill the jet

My O-320 was lean also, as confirmed with a flight at 3k', then lean and go back to full rich, only 40 degrees ROP was available. Checked main jet with number drills and found a #40 was snug. Drilled to a number 38 and it seems a little rich at times, but expect this winter it will be just right. You can always lean some, but if full rich isn't enough you're stuck. My 320 probably makes near 180 HP, so this might be too much for a 150 HP engine. The Precision guys told me that each number size drill adds 1 gallon per hour fuel flow available.
Ron Voss RV-6 N642R
O-320 angle valve, Catto 3 blade
14.7 hrs!
 
Mustang II & RV jet size probably different but same problem

The "lean test" as I do it, is at 8,000 feet density altitude with Wide Open Throttle, WOT. I don't recommending any leaning at 3,000 feet since leaning should be done at or below 75%. The steps are

8,000 feet level flight WOT and full rich
Note all EGTS at full rich and record
slowly lean and not EGT rise
First one to peak (first to start dropping) note.

You should see at least 125-175 rich of peek (ROP).

You can do some limited ground test. At a 1,200 rpm ground run-up slowly lean and note RPM rise. You should see some rise in the 50-75 rpm range.​


As far as FUEL flow you only use more fuel at FULL rich. However leaning has the same affect and will use the same fuel main jet or not.

10 gph is a little low for a O320 (150hp) at full power.

It is possible to over size the main jet too much, but almost ALL stock jets are too small for most RV's. If you are not running ROP at full power you will run hotter and decrease your margin to detonation. Also you will make less power if too lean.

I'm going to say the air box/filter set-up is better on RV's than most Mustang II's. Some Mustang II's have similar set-ups, but many MII's, a was common practice, plastered the filter on the face of the cowl. That is not aerodynamic or good for pressure recovery for better induction. However the Mustangs II's high speed and free flowing exhaust should make it run lean a little verses a C-172. The RV air box (ram-air with large plenum and K&N filter) gets RV's even more lean. Not a put down of the Mustang II design, just difference in typical air box design. So the jet size for a Mustang II and RV may be different if the air box is different. I assume exhaust and air speed are similar between planes. Again many Mustang II's have a good air box/filter set-up but many are like the below (filter on out side), works but not as well as a Van scoop and FAB. I think the efficiency of Vans FAB's is part of the lean running issue, but that is goodness. The leanness is that more air is being pumped through the engine and thus needs more fuel, making more power. You can always move the little black and red knobs to lower fuel flow, but you MUST have a large enough main jet to handle the WOT full power fuel metering. There are almost no stock jets that work perfectly in stock form on RV's. The richest of the rich stock MS/MA carbs are close but not quite a cigar for RV's, if your air-box, exhaust are set-up well. Going fast with full power is going to be lean. Cessna's and Pipers that these carbs where calibrated for tend to have the filter on the front of the cowl deal. A stock 150HP engine in a C-172 is lucky to make 130hp with the stock air-box and exhaust, which are restrictive compared to our RV's.

Erickson%20N34CS.jpg
 
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813 - 47 Jet 715cc-725cc/min. flow
773 - 47 Jet 950cc-970cc/min. flow
1 cc/min = 0.01585 gal/hour
47-813 Jet 715cc-725cc/min. flow = 11.4-11.5 gal/hr
47-773 Jet 950cc-970cc/min. flow = 15.1-15.4 gal/hr

anyone know what the flow is for the:
47-828 jet???
47-728 jet???
47-734 jet???
47-741 jet???

And
drill size for:
47-813
47-773
 
Thanks to this chat room, I have a new path to go down to resolve a stumbling o320 engine at high power settings and plugs showing lean when at full rich mixture. I had an A&P pull the carb to inspect and he did confirm it is the right jet for the MA4. Thanks to this forum
 
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