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How do you value a completed plane that hasn't completed phase I?

philip_g

Well Known Member
There's a 9 for sale with 3 hours on it. Asking 105k. It seemed a little steep to me, but it'll be interesting to see how the market values it. I'm betting someone grabs it in this market.

What do you think? Being as sort of an unknown I guess I figured it would be fair at somewhat less than a well sorted airframe with some hours but maybe being "new" is a be efit to some and I'm thinking about it all wrong.

The builder had medical issues and didn't complete phase I is the story I got. I'm not super serious about it but I'd bite of the price was right even if it meant weekend trips to the mainland to fly off the 40.
 
A buddy bought a Cozy that was still in phase 1 and used it a negotiating tool to lower the price. The FAA wouldn't grant a ferry permit to bring it closer to home for testing, so he had to take weekend trips to fly off the 40 just like you're planning to. Factor in all those costs when making an offer.
 
A buddy bought a Cozy that was still in phase 1 and used it a negotiating tool to lower the price. The FAA wouldn't grant a ferry permit to bring it closer to home for testing, so he had to take weekend trips to fly off the 40 just like you're planning to. Factor in all those costs when making an offer.

Depending on the distance, another option would be to "truck" the aircraft to it's new home and have the Operating Limitations amended as to the flight test area.
 
Depending on the distance, another option would be to "truck" the aircraft to it's new home and have the Operating Limitations amended as to the flight test area.

Guy lives in Hawaii. Maybe he could get the navy to put it on an aircraft carrier:D:D:D
 
Depending on the distance, another option would be to "truck" the aircraft to it's new home and have the Operating Limitations amended as to the flight test area.

That would be an option too but the fsdo here for other members hasn't allowed phase I out of hnl or jrf. They had to truck their projects up to dillingham which is like a hour half drive. It'd be best to just fly it off there and ferry it to CA and ship it. I think.

Full disclosure I feel it's about a $60-80k airplane as is where is. But I thought it would be interesting to see what others think. Since I think someone will buy it at asking price my opinion is worthless anyway
 
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Guy lives in Hawaii. Maybe he could get the navy to put it on an aircraft carrier:D:D:D

It's like, 10k to get a plane here via shipping container. I have several on my short list that I keep an eye out for that aren't too bad to remove the wings and I just wait for the right one. Lancair are out, canard are out. All too wide. The lanxair can be done but they weld up a steel frame and load it at like a 45 degree angle
 
A buddy bought a Cozy that was still in phase 1 and used it a negotiating tool to lower the price. The FAA wouldn't grant a ferry permit to bring it closer to home for testing, so he had to take weekend trips to fly off the 40 just like you're planning to. Factor in all those costs when making an offer.

I'd love a cozy but those strakes are just too wide to get one here, unless you ferry it I guess.
 
RV prices are all over the board it seems.. Just today I noticed a 9 year old RV12 with 1700 TT listed for $95,000.. Doubt they will find someone to buy at that price, but who knows..

I personally wouldn't expect being able to use 40 hr fly-off as much of a negotiating tactic. Guess it just depends how bad the seller wants to sell and how bad the buyer wants to buy! :)
 
Honestly, if the airplane was well built (proven by a good pre-purchase inspection) and built to plans (see first parentheses....), then I wouldn’t expect a huge discount for it not being out of Phase 1. There is very little “sorting out” to do with a modern RV built the way Van’s says to build it. Plenty of stuff to test and document, but I wouldn’t expect many changes to result from any of it.

My opinion from watching aircraft sales - I rarely (if ever) buy and sell...

Paul
 
RV prices are all over the board it seems.. Just today I noticed a 9 year old RV12 with 1700 TT listed for $95,000.. Doubt they will find someone to buy at that price, but who knows..

I personally wouldn't expect being able to use 40 hr fly-off as much of a negotiating tactic. Guess it just depends how bad the seller wants to sell and how bad the buyer wants to buy! :)

The -12 prices have been crazy overall I felt.
 
Honestly, if the airplane was well built (proven by a good pre-purchase inspection) and built to plans (see first parentheses....), then I wouldn’t expect a huge discount for it not being out of Phase 1. There is very little “sorting out” to do with a modern RV built the way Van’s says to build it. Plenty of stuff to test and document, but I wouldn’t expect many changes to result from any of it.

My opinion from watching aircraft sales - I rarely (if ever) buy and sell...

Paul

I see your point.
Someone that lived close its much less of a hassle than it is for me
 
Regardless of what the conventional perception of the value of a Phase 1 completion, I as a buyer would definitely expect a discount for no phase 1. Even with something as well defined/certain as a modern RV, phase 1 is still a test period involving time, work, fuel, possible repairs, and certification requirements.
If a purchase price can be agreed upon, a far away buyer has the option of asking someone more local to volunteer doing the phase 1 flying for them. How many here would do it just for the cost of fuel...even half fuel? I would bet many!
 
It seems the builder, who obtained the airworthiness certificate, would have to make the log book entry that the airplane is airworthy after phase 1 is completed? Could the new owner, who flew the phase 1, make that entry? Sounds like a FSDO call to verify what is legal. You'd want to guard against any legal slippery slope issues with an insurance claim in the future. Paul makes a good point- if the plane passes a pre-purchase inspection and you like the plane, go for it. If you like the plane, I'd move on it quickly, especially if you like the panel.
 
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Anyone qualified to fly the aircraft is qualified to perform and sign off phase I flight testing.
 
It seems the builder, who obtained the airworthiness certificate, would have to make the log book entry that the airplane is airworthy after phase 1 is completed? Could the new owner, who flew the phase 1, make that entry? Sounds like a FSDO call to verify what is legal. You'd want to guard against any legal slippery slope issues with an insurance claim in the future. Paul makes a good point- if the plane passes a pre-purchase inspection and you like the plane, go for it. If you like the plane, I'd move on it quickly, especially if you like the panel.

Actually any pilot qualified to do the Phase 1 (which is practically just about anyone with a Private and a medical...or BasicMed) can make the sign off into Phase 2.
 
IIRC the builder signs the plane off as “...in a condition for safe flight” BEFORE the first flight.

In this specific case someone did a condition inspection on it and replaced the cylinders (AD millenniums)
I’m assuming he did the same sign off the builder did/should?
 
40 hours is 1000$ -2000$ in fuel and one week vacation (the most). So it’s in the noise if everything else checks out.

In addition to the pre buy others mentioned I would listen carefully to the story on why the builder didn’t complete it. Did he scare himself? Why? or dis he just loose his medical ... .

Oliver
 
In this specific case someone did a condition inspection on it and replaced the cylinders (AD millenniums)
I’m assuming he did the same sign off the builder did/should?

In truth, no logbook entry is actually required for that - as silly as it might sound to those familiar with certified aircraft. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a good idea to log the work for the record, but its not strictly required. And the “ in a condition for safe operation” is only required to have been done within a year prior to any flight. Not required after maintenance.
 
In this specific case someone did a condition inspection on it and replaced the cylinders (AD millenniums)
I’m assuming he did the same sign off the builder did/should?

You would expect a sign off from the builder when he got the original airworthiness cert from the DAR or FAA. Then you would expect an entry for the conditional inspection from the A/P that did the inspection or builder ( if he got the inspection authority) that should match the wording in the operational limitations word by word.

Technically no entry for the cylinder replacement is required, however, nearly everybody would have made one voluntarily. As anybody is allowed to do that work anybody could make that entry.

Get a prebuy from somebody familiar in experimentals. The inspector should know all of this.

Oliver
 
A coupla opinions:
* Doing a full 40 hour Phase 1 is a lot of work!
* Buying a very low time plane means that you don't know what you've got, and when, not if, the surprises come, you may have little or no idea on the relevant details of how it was built.

When I had my RV-4, the slogan was, Every flight is a test flight.

I've gotten out of that habit. Maybe I should get back into it...
 
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