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analysis paralysis

salty

Well Known Member
So, the wife and I are trying to get started with our tail build, we finally have all the tools needed and have worked on the training kits. But, I feel like we're getting worse, not better. It's probably not that we're actually getting worse, but rather, that I now know enough to realize how bad we are.

But, I'm reluctant to start on the real thing due to two issues.

1. We're still messing up the skin pretty badly every now and then. We know why we're doing it wrong and how to not do it, but the actual doing it right part isn't consistent yet.

2. No matter how many times we read the instructions and review it until we think we know what to do, we still make stupid mistakes now and then drilling out the wrong size hole, or do things not in the best order. I think our biggest mistake here is not marking the parts and then after sitting them down getting confused.

I'm looking for feedback on the above, and guidance on when to know we're read to do the real thing. It just feels like we are going backward because even though we're probably getting more consistent, we see the mistakes more obviously and I feel like we are doing worse.

Adding a few examples of the horrid mistakes we're still making.
 

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A lot of bucking bar issues. I suggest you tape every surface of the bucking bar except the surface in use - especially the corners (first three photos are bucking bar damage). Practice holding the bar in exactly the right plane. Also, if your are using a tungsten bar try use using a standard steel bar. The tungsten bar is great for tight areas but tends to be too small to keep properly oriented.

On the last photo, two issues. First is allowing the rivet set to skip over the rivet. Second is I assume you are not doing the tape trick to eliminate “smiley”. Put three layers of standard masking tape over the rivet set. Set 2-3 rivets, add another layer and do a couple of more rivets. Replace the tape when you see the rivet set head coming through. Do this and you will never have another smiley.

On the second photo you did not deburr the empty hole. All holes musty be deburred.

Side note - you may need to buy some replacement parts. Hard to tell from the photos.

Carl
 
Congrats

It's nice that you have your wife working with you - congrats on that!

I assume you are just practicing on scrap? Perhaps you are just not focused enough? Knowing that if you make a mistake it might cost you several hundred dollars or more tends to increase concentration, at least it does for me.

I also recommend using a sharpie to ensure that you flag holes that need a dimple, countersink, a #40 or a #30 or whatever. Write on the metal or the blue plastic - it comes off later with a dab of acetone, so have at it.

I also recommend just doing it a lot - like everything new, it does take some practice. If you have not had another experienced builder over to coach you, that would also be helpful - like my golf swing, perhaps your technique needs adjustment.

I'm sure you will get more helpful tips from others - this site is fully of people who want to see you succeed and build a beautiful and safe RV!
 
1. Practice on the practice kit(s) not real parts. You can make some test pieces of "scrap" aluminum, drill some holes and fill them with rivets.
2. All parts or subassemblies should be secured prior to riveting. Clamp them in a vice, clamp them to a Workmate, clamp them to your bench. Nothing worse than parts hopping around when you are trying to rivet them.
3. My preference is a tungsten bucking bar 5/8" x 1" x 5" (approx). I cut short pieces of bicycle tube to install over the bar to help grip it, cushion the parts a bit if I drop it.
4. Make sure you have a good rivet gun with a teasing trigger. Try lowering the air pressure with a good regulator (or raising it if need be). The rivet should be driven by 5-8 impacts. Visit other builders to try their guns and get a feel for them.
5. On AN470 universal head rivets I found Snap-Soc plastic caps on the rivet set very helpful in keeping the set on the rivet while driving it.
6. This is a skill that comes with practice, so practice.
 
I need to read the responses in detail still, but wanted to be clear we are still practicing on scrap.
 
Hi Salty

Practice, practice, practice! is what you need. Lots of new physical skills learn here and it takes time to get the feel ... holding the gun, setting the air pressure and pressure on the piece, etc.

If you can find an experienced builder in your area (should be easy .. check at the airport or the local EAA chapter), get some hands-on show-and-tell. Live feedback will help a lot.

I took the EAA sheetmetal class before building, and was able to screw up my first rivets in front of an experienced instructor who could quickly ID what was amiss and help correct it.

Keep pounding!
 
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Great responses, very helpful. Keep in mind, I only showed the bad ones, the vast majority are fine, but I’m disappointed that we’re still producing these results so often. The really horrible one was where I did not have the part well secured and all **** broke loose instantly. Still a mistake I can’t believe I made. I thought it was secure enough.
 
....Write on the metal or the blue plastic - it comes off later with a dab of acetone, so have at it....

Alcohol or lacquer thinner removes the markings, too, using a less-abusive chemical.

You can mark the part number on the parts to keep them from getting mixed up.

Practice! You're on the right path. And remember, if you do make a mistake that you can't fix with the knowledge you have, ask us on VAF or if it seems really bad, don't hesitate to ask Van's support. They are prepared to assist you. From time to time you may need a replacement part, and that's part of the game. On my RV-3B project, I have a bunch of scrap in the attic. It's amusing to see the pile from time to time. And the pieces serve a worthy purpose, too: if a visitor wants to dry riveting, I've got things that they can practice on.

It might help to find someone experienced in your area to give you a lesson or two. Sometimes a couple hours spent with someone who's done it, can make all the difference.

All the best,
Dave
 
Rivets! Grrrrrr

YOU CAN DO THIS!! Really! I'm not just saying that! Look how many RVs are flying and, with ALL of those, SOMEone had to pound those rivets. Many airplanes flying today were built by people that, at first, didn't know a rivet from a broom handle! Don't give up! And sometimes you need to just walk away and let things sit. There were days when I was building it was suddenly 2 am in the morning and I didn't realize it! There were other days I would go out, look at things, and turn around and go back in the house. Nope: not today. Not in the mood. Do you need to do "something" every day to get the airplane flying? Yes, but with a caveat: some days you don't. As my flight instructor once said, sometimes you just have to walk away, roll up a cigarette, sit down and have a smoke. (He never smoked a day in his life but, being from Montana, that was his way of saying "step back and let things settle for a while".

Several points: 1) DON'T give up! 2) Get someone who has pounded rivets before to come over and watch what you are doing. We were all once new at this. There are many factors that seem small but can be important with driving rivets: size of the rivet, size of the bucking bar, and, one that is occasionally not thought of, the air pressure to your rivet gun. That is what that little nob is for. THAT takes a lot of adjusting to get just right and can vary depending on what you are driving. 3) Go to your local metal dealer or Home Depot and pick up a big piece of new or scrap aluminum. Does not have to be aircraft quality but should be close to the thickness of what you will be riveting on your airplane. And do everything you are going to do with the real thing: drill, deburr (very important and EVERY hole), countersink, rivet! Because: 4) How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice practice practice. The more rivets you drive, the better you will get. Will you still bounce off of some on your airplane? Yes. It is a rare bird that doesn't have some "interesting" rivets. I could tell you stories of things I have seen. Look at a "factory-built" airplane sometime.....:eek:

SO: did I mention YOU CAN DO THIS?? And how cool is it that your wife and future copilot is in there with you? Don't just have her bucking. I find women are sometimes better at driving than bucking. That may freak her (and you) out but she will get better with practice as well.

My RV-4 was a "slow build". No pre-drilled holes. My former room mate and I drove every one of the 13,000 driven rivets in that airplane!

Keep going!
 
Practice

I don't see anything that can't be resolved with practice.
Find a mentor and make sure you are not solidifying bad practices. Even the grip on the gun has an effect. Try pointing the index down the barrel and use the second finger for the trigger. Practice feathering till you can get a single hit.
Mentor will help you find the rivet set that suits you. I prefer a mushroom swivel set. Some builders hate them. Each person is unique.
Bucking bar protection. Bicycle tube is a good idea. I use Gorilla black tape. A wrap aroud with a 32nd hanging off the end is more than enough. If I need access to a side face, I cut a window.
Pressure. I prefer a good regulator instead of a flow restrictor. Consistent pressure is key. The mentor will help you find the sweet spot pressures for each size.
Protect the surface. Let's of skinned cats here. I use heavy packing tape on 426 and black Gorilla on 470. Keeps the rivet set clean. No smileys.
Finally, practice. Make a test part. Pound it full of rivets. Drill it apart. Lather, rinse, repeat. Drilling rivets is as important a skill.
 
On the last photo, two issues. First is allowing the rivet set to skip over the rivet. Second is I assume you are not doing the tape trick to eliminate “smiley”. Put three layers of standard masking tape over the rivet set. Set 2-3 rivets, add another layer and do a couple of more rivets. Replace the tape when you see the rivet set head coming through. Do this and you will never have another smiley.
I'm not following you on this. Are you saying to put tape over the part of the set that the universal head fits into normally? Maybe a pic would help?

On the second photo you did not deburr the empty hole. All holes must be deburred.
The empty hole is just for future practice. That photo was to show the rivet slightly over driven.
 
Several points: 1) DON'T give up!

Thanks for the encouragement

2) Get someone who has pounded rivets before to come over and watch what you are doing. We were all once new at this. There are many factors that seem small but can be important with driving rivets: size of the rivet, size of the bucking bar, and, one that is occasionally not thought of, the air pressure to your rivet gun. That is what that little nob is for. THAT takes a lot of adjusting to get just right and can vary depending on what you are driving.

We have plenty of help, we know what we're doing wrong, we just haven't been able to eliminate the mistakes to my liking yet, which is what's bugging me.

3) Go to your local metal dealer or Home Depot and pick up a big piece of new or scrap aluminum. Does not have to be aircraft quality but should be close to the thickness of what you will be riveting on your airplane. And do everything you are going to do with the real thing: drill, deburr (very important and EVERY hole), countersink, rivet! Because: 4) How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice practice practice. The more rivets you drive, the better you will get. Will you still bounce off of some on your airplane? Yes. It is a rare bird that doesn't have some "interesting" rivets. I could tell you stories of things I have seen. Look at a "factory-built" airplane sometime.....:eek:
Yeah, that's what we're doing, I just feel like we aren't progressing.

SO: did I mention YOU CAN DO THIS?? And how cool is it that your wife and future copilot is in there with you? Don't just have her bucking. I find women are sometimes better at driving than bucking. That may freak her (and you) out but she will get better with practice as well.
She is practicing everything with one exception, she can't use the pneumatic squeezer. She's a lefty, and she doesn't have the strength to hold it and flip the lever at the same time. So she's using the rivet gun for everything, where I can use the squeezer for some things. She's really struggling with aligning the tools, apparently her depth perception is pretty horrible. She has no idea how to hold the tools straight to the work. Amazingly she still manages to produce results nearly as good as mine.
 
Finally, practice. Make a test part. Pound it full of rivets. Drill it apart. Lather, rinse, repeat. Drilling rivets is as important a skill.

We've been doing just that. Yesterday the wife put aside a 426 with a perfectly centered circle drilled out as a keepsake of the rivet she got to pop out perfectly, she was so proud of it. LOL
 
quit trying to build The Perfect RV... have yet to see one :D

One tough thing I had to learn was pride erosion :eek:
In the beginning I told myself I'm gonna build only one aircraft in my life, so it's gotta be perfect...
Got mad like **** at my 1st smiley :mad:
After the 3rd one my attitude slowly changed and the myth evaporated...

Following some of the excellent advice from other posters will put you on the right track, and your mistake ratio will be improving, good luck!
 
So you drive the rivets with the tape not just on the outside, but over the rivet as well?
No, just on the rivet set.

Side note - I also put a piece of clear packing tape on the flush rivet set (I use a swivel head). This tape eliminated scuff marks on the aluminum. One piece lasts a long time.

Carl
 
I'm brain locked on this tape the rivet set thing. If somebody has a picture, I'd appreciate it.
 
I'm brain locked on this tape the rivet set thing. If somebody has a picture, I'd appreciate it.

You are over thinking. For round head rivets, take a little square of masking tape and cover the end of the rivet set (the end that goes against the rivet). Add two more layers. Replace as needed.

Carl
 
Yep, practice. And, take your time. You’ve heard, “measure twice, cut once”? I measure 5 times! Dimpling a row of holes, but two don’t get dimpled yet? Cover those not to be dimpled with tape before starting. Also, when you get to nuts, hoses, etc: keep a roll of red tape handy. Anything that is assembled but not final-torqued gets a red flag. These things will slow you down but, as you’re discovering, fixing mistakes takes even more time. It’s not a race, it’s an adventure. Enjoy it.
 
You are over thinking. For round head rivets, take a little square of masking tape and cover the end of the rivet set (the end that goes against the rivet). Add two more layers. Replace as needed.

Carl

I think I worded my last question badly so your answer confused me. The tape will be hitting the rivet, not the set. Or at least what's left of the tape after it's been pounded a few times.
 
I suggest you and your wife take your tail kit to Synergy ( https://synergyair.com/builder-assistance-classes/empennage/ ) and take their 1 week build class. At the end of the week your tail will be complete, and you will have all of the skills and confidance you will need to complete your plane. I had a wonderful experiance doing this with my kids. I feel the knowladge we gained was worth every penny, and we will make the money back will fewer mistakes and much quicker build time.
If not the 1 week class, then at least the weekend practice kit class - but I found I learned a lot more in the week long class.
The two of you will only pay for one class fee.
 
I suggest you and your wife take your tail kit to Synergy ( https://synergyair.com/builder-assistance-classes/empennage/ ) and take their 1 week build class. At the end of the week your tail will be complete, and you will have all of the skills and confidance you will need to complete your plane. I had a wonderful experiance doing this with my kids. I feel the knowladge we gained was worth every penny, and we will make the money back will fewer mistakes and much quicker build time.
If not the 1 week class, then at least the weekend practice kit class - but I found I learned a lot more in the week long class.
The two of you will only pay for one class fee.

We'll check it out.
 
eyes

When you are riveting, are you watching the gun or the bucking bar?
If I watch the bucking bar, I will slip the gun off the rivet and cause an oops.

know where to look when you are pulling the trigger.
 
Practice

Hi Salty -

I think it's been said before. Just keep on practicing until you get better and better. I actually felt more comfortable making an empennage 2.0 because there was so much going on with the first one. It only added 1.5-2% to the total cost of the a/c.

Some other things to consider - get the AC-43.13-1B and check out the part on riveting so you can see all the important dimensions you have to meet - shop head height, mfg head height, thickness, etc. I think there might be some Navy or military pubs out there as well. They are good about showing when the shop or manufactured heads are too ugly to keep and which ones are acceptable. Get good at identifying exactly which rivet you're using - figure out how to measure them. Learn how to dimple and machine countersink (ideally on a drill press). Deburring is important.

Use scrap to not only practice riveting; but also, to practice figuring out which dimension rivet to use based on how much material you have. Practice flush rivets, universal rivets, setting rivets close to corners and know what is meant by edge distance.

Especially practice de-riveting because you will make mistakes and will want to remove rivets. So for a -3 rivet, I typically 1. Dimple the center of the rivet mfg head with an awl or good automatic punch. 2. I drill a hole down about a third the length of the rivet with a 5/64th's drill bit. 3. I follow that with a #40 bit about halfway down. (Try not to drill all the way through because this complicates things.) 4. Then I put in the side of a #40 bit that gets chucked up - the shank - into the hole and gently move it around and around until the head pops off. 5. Then I either use the punch or awl or sometimes run the #40 bit all the way through the get rid of the shop side of the rivet. 6. Worst case, if I run the #40 bit all the way through but there is sill rivet material on the shop side, then you can carefully use needle nose pliers or vampliers to get rid of it.

It's fun when you get good. But when I get cocky or careless or haven't done it for a while, mistakes come back. And deriveting takes 5x or 10x to do than a nice rivet. Also check out Chapter 5 of Vans and also EAA has a bunch of good videos on riveting and tricks to do really tough ones. Can also check out YouTube.

I live in Fort Lauderdale a lot in winter. Give me a shout PM if you are nearby. Hope that helps.

See you,

Drum
 
help

Find an experienced builder if you can and have them work with you on a few practice pieces. You'll be fine!
 
Tape and Stability

Sometimes small practice parts are actually more difficult to rivet without making mistakes like I see you making. The reason being is you do not have other parts of the structure to help provide stability. Make sure that the small parts are secure by being clamped to a table and that you can use the table or something else to provide stability to the hand holding the bucking bar.

Two tips. First as has been said, tape the corners of your bucking bar. I use two layers of duct tape. Here's a picture of my bucking bar after doing a bunch of riveting. Depending on what I'm riveting, different parts of the bucking bar will be taped. Whatever is needed to protect the structure. I cannot remember denting a part of the structure with a properly taped up bucking bar.

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Second, when you are holding the bucking bar, try to use other parts of the structure to stabilize your hand. You need to make sure that the bucking bar is taped up as described in tip 1, to protect the other part of the structure you are using for stability. Here's a picture where I'm using the wing rib to provide stability while bucking the skin rivets.

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One last tip, for the person driving the rivet with a flush head. It really helps to engage the rivet gun gradually. Very slightly at first. It helps give two kinds of feedback. 1) That the bucking bar is on the right rivet and 2) That the flush set is flat against the surface, and which way the set wants to wander across the surface as you further engage the rivet gun. You can use that feedback to make slight adjustments to the pressures you are applying. Those adjustments eliminate the wandering by having the flush set exactly flush against the surface.

If I'm doing both the rivet run and the bucking bar, I first stabilize the bucking bar against the rivet and structure, then focus my eyes on the flush set and rivet gun to make sure it is flush to the surface and not wandering. I then gradually engage the rivet gun and do not look at the bucking bar again, but stay focused on the flush set.

This is stuff that works for me. (most of the time)

Good luck and stick with it. You will get it.

Michael-
 

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I suggest you work on some practice pieces for a while until you get the hang of it. One thing is critical is to have the right air pressure. Too high air pressure the rivet gun becomes harder to control and it tends to go faster. When you have thicker material you will need more air pressure but it should probably be less than 40 PSI as a starting point.

I've done a lot of riveting by myself. The one advantage of doing it by your self is you know what the other hand is doing. I find sometimes when I need help its actually a little more difficult working with another person because communication is required. If you work with your wife just make sure you do some sort of verbal handshake. Something like Ready Ready Ok and start the gun.

Use short burst of the gun and then reposition if needed. Redo the handshake.

Others have mentioned taping the bucking bar this won't help the dents that you are getting but it will help prevent scrapping of the surfaces. I often use painters tape on the surfaces that the bucking bar might rub against too. This is just to save my primed surfaces.

The correct way to hold the bucking bar may not be obvious. You need to try and support the bar in addition to holding it. For example resting your hand on the surface and then making sure it is parallel to the surface. This will help you have control of the bar. If you just try to hold the end of the bucking bar it may be hard to control that it is parallel to the surface. Press on the rivet and you will be able to tell the balance of the bucking bar. If it is off center it will be harder to hold and get a good rivet head.

For the rivet gun you need to be able to lightly pull the trigger and do short bursts. That is the first step. It should be just a few taps at least until you get to know what you are doing. Tap tap tap. I check my gun settings before I do a rivet session. This can be on just a block of wood. If the pressure is too high you will have difficulty doing this. Once you get that figured out then its time to work on positioning the gun. The gun needs to be perpendicular to the surface. Flush rivets in a way are easier than round head rivets. The thing is you have to keep the gun perpendicular if you don't the edge of the set can dent the surface. Use riveters tape to prevent scuffing on the surface. Again this will not prevent dents. The riveters tape is slick though so if you are at an angle the rivet set will slide. Stop and reposition. The round head rivets are harder since its easier to get a smiley like you showed in the picture. Make sure that the rivet set is held against the rivet head and that is centered. Again use rivets tape. These round head rivets tend to banged up so the tape protects the head some. If the head gets beat up before the rivet is completed then reposition the tape and continue.

If you can find someone to show you how its done then its much better. The EAA had sheet metal workshops which I took and it at least got me started. I'm not sure if in this Covid situation if they have those. A builder in your area might be able to help you get started too if you can find one. Riveting is not simple but it is a skill that can be learned. Keep at it. Take a piece of angle and drill rivet holes every inch and practice.
 
Lots of good tips here.. I’ll add one more. Try using a longer rivet set in your gun. The longer it is, the easier it is to see a misalignment.

Try holding the gun in your palm and squeeze the trigger with your middle finger. I put the rounded part of the gun in my palm, and feel it gives me more control and less likely to tilt the gun. Press the gun firmly, and keep pressing even after you rivet. Make a conscious effort to keep the pressure until you remove your finger from the trigger.
 
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Tape

I'm brain locked on this tape the rivet set thing. If somebody has a picture, I'd appreciate it.

Don't over analyze. Sorry. Your thread title. :D

Tape. Try both. Tape on the end of the set or tape over the rivet. See which you like best. 6/1/2 dozen. I prefer a square of 3M Heavy Packing tape over flush rivets. Fold an end so it can be pulled off. For noobies, I draw an "X" on the tape. My swivel set also has marks. I tell them to line up the marks and the set is dead center. One square lasts about 10-20 rivets.

470s I use a square of Gorilla Black tape. One square lasts till it gets too many holes to reuse. Leaves a little residue that's easy to scrape off the rivet head with a fingernail.

Personally, I close my eyes quite often. It allows me to feel. Plus there are many places where you can't see the bar, set or both like the wing skins. Learning to rivet with eyes closed comes in very handy. Position the bar adjacent to the rivet and muscle memorize the orientation. Lift just enough to clear the rivet, slide over and bang.

Drilling
Sounds like she scored. Something oddly satisfying about those little doughnuts. I prefer to use a drill stop on the final hole so the bit can't go deeper than the head. Prevents damage and figure eight holes. Insert the opposite end in the rivet head and a quick snap. Head pops right off. Use a backing bar when driving out shanks so the part can't get distorted. There's a link to a Kitplanes Tip on my blog. Homemade bucking bars.
 
Where in Fl are you? Feel free to shoot me a PM if you'd like. My wife and I are moving to Melbourne in 2 weeks. We have a 7A at X21, previously built a 9A, and are mid-fuse on the 10. We'd be happy to help if you're in the area.
 
Good days and bad days

There's another factor in all this, which is that on some days, if you are tired or distracted (no matter how much experience you have), or if the wind is blowing the wrong way, mistakes seem to happen more readily.
I find it's then best just to leave the workshop and go and do something else.;)
 
Salty,

Nothing to add to a lot of good advice from experienced folks on this thread. But let me just say - 8 months ago I was you. I made the phone holder and did the practice project that came with the empennage kit. It looked like a disaster. I bought a practice airfoil project from Vans and was half way done preparing the parts for final assembly. Then I left the skin pieces on the roof of my car and drove off and lost them somewhere on the road. Never finished it, but out of frustration I pulled the first piece from the actual kit and started building.

As others have said, the actual parts are somehow easier than the practice projects. The parts are larger and easier to hold and work with. Plus the mindset you’re doing it for real helps to be careful. You’re concerned about riveting, but there’s a lot to do before you get to that. First step on an RV-10 was to measure and cut the vertical stabilizer rear spar caps, then clamp them with the spar and match drill, deburr, paint... There is time to get comfortable before the first rivet. Then in the practice project you’re probably bucking rivets in some small pieces clamped to the bench or held in a vase - you’re not going to do that with real parts. If the parts are small, you’ll use a squeezer, which is much easier to use. First time I bucked a rivet in the real part was when putting the VS skin, which is the last step of the VS. And it’s so much larger than the practice pieces, you’ll get much better stability.

Then again, someone mentioned in the thread, you want every rivet to be perfect, and they just won’t be. Some you’ll drill out and some you’ll leave in thinking not perfect but within standards. This was very hard for me to accept too. What helped me is showing my part that I though was particularly bad (rudder trailing edge) to an experienced builder. I though it was **** and I would have to build a new one. He told me it was perfectly airworthy, and that he saw worse workmanship on real flying airplanes at Oshkosh. And that the things I thought were bad for airframe were in fact just cosmetic things that would all be invisible and would have no effect once it is painted.

Try different things and see what works. Often it’s good to try on scrap before making damage to the real part - something I wish I had done more often. I drove 100 rivets leaving scuff marks before I though about taping the rivet set. They became better but I had to replace the tape every 10 rivets or so. Then I tried rivet tape on the rivet heads instead of the blue painters tape on the rivet set. Even better. So yes the first 100 rivets are discolored and have the scuff marks around them. Another example is countersinking - I found through experiments that countersinking in a drill press gives a much better result than with a hand drill. In the process I have created some far-from-ideal holes. I think the sequence of steps allows you to make a few mistakes that won’t be critical and get better before you get to more important less forgiving parts.

Another way to look at it - you’ve bought the empennage kit, so just dive in and then evaluate the result when you finish the empennage. It’s not too expensive compared to the rest of the plane. You’ll learn valuable lessons along the way. There’s a lot of parts in that empennage kit. By the end of it you’ll be an expert. Then you decide whether you want to continue, rebuild some parts, or quit and buy a flying plane. I’m at this decision point right now.
 
PSI?

From the looks of your work I would guess you are using too much air pressure
Dial it back to no more than 40 PSI for #3s and 60 for #4s.....
Air pressure makes all the difference!
 
From the looks of your work I would guess you are using too much air pressure
Dial it back to no more than 40 PSI for #3s and 60 for #4s.....
Air pressure makes all the difference!

Those pressures sound kinda high. I use 25-28 psi for #3 rivets, and 40-45 psi for #4 rivets, that's in a 2X Chicago Pneumatic gun.

The dents and smilies in the example look like either the gun or the bucking bar slipped, this can be caused by imbalance between the gun and the bucking bar and not holding things straight and steady.
 
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Then again, someone mentioned in the thread, you want every rivet to be perfect, and they just won’t be. Some you’ll drill out and some you’ll leave in thinking not perfect but within standards. This was very hard for me to accept too. What helped me is showing my part that I though was particularly bad (rudder trailing edge) to an experienced builder. I though it was **** and I would have to build a new one. He told me it was perfectly airworthy, and that he saw worse workmanship on real flying airplanes at Oshkosh. And that the things I thought were bad for airframe were in fact just cosmetic things that would all be invisible and would have no effect once it is painted.

Thanks everyone, great feedback and support!

The above comment popped out at me. We embarrassingly took our phone stand kit over to our neighbor to review a few weeks ago. He’s an A&P for a major airline and the guy everyone in the area takes their metal work to when they want it done perfect. He said it looked great. But I feel like we’ve gotten worse since then. Lol

I also think a big problem is not securing the work good enough. Like I said earlier, I know that was the cause for the worst oops shown in my OP.

And last thing someone mentioned is working as a team. With these small parts we haven’t done any practice with both of us. I think we need to do that. I’ve done a couple dozen with my A&P in the past, but the wife and I haven’t tried it yet. Good call out.
 
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As for air pressure, I’m running 90 in the lines, but there’s a regulator on the gun that I adjust for the size rivet, no idea what the actual number is. I’ve consulted with experienced people to get a feel that I’ve got it adjusted at least relatively close.
 
Hey Salty - not sure if any one mentioned practice yet (is joke...) but I did a bunch of the Vans wing section kits and putting them side by side, it looked like the evolution of man... I did them until it actually looked like a finished airplane part.

Even with an EAA class, a bunch of practice kits, I found that the build sequence initially to be prep parts, preassemble for fit, disassemble, prime, reassemble for final, rivet, stand back and figure out what replacement parts are needed, order, go on to something else. The pile of scrap continued to grow but at a slower pace as time went on.

In Florida as well and might be able to help.
 
As for air pressure, I’m running 90 in the lines, but there’s a regulator on the gun that I adjust for the size rivet, no idea what the actual number is. I’ve consulted with experienced people to get a feel that I’ve got it adjusted at least relatively close.

I also use 90 psi, but adjust the brass needle valve thing to restrict the air. It’s pretty soft hitting for the -3, then I open it 3 clicks for -4 rivets.
 
I had many of your issues when I was starting.

My single greatest improvement was turning down the pressure on my air line. About 35 psi made more than half my mistakes go away.

I got a tungsten bucking bar and wrapped it in tape.
I learned to use the pneumatic squeezer rather than the rivet gun when possible.
I got better at back riveting.
Practice definitely helps. My empennage has more blemishes than the wings.
My tech counselor helped me with both technique and confidence. I don’t think I could have gotten going without monthly visits from him in the early phase.

I did better once I decided I was building an airplane rather than an art installation. I drill out rivets if they are not structurally sound but live with occasional minor cosmetic blemishes when the structure is good. When it is done, nobody but you will notice them.

David
 
90% of my riveting problems were caused by too much gun pressure. Maybe practice with much less than you 'think' you should need and work your way up..
 
I also do what the OP and Tom does with air pressure - the lines are at 90 and the restrictor cranked all the way down and then opened just enough so I can hold the gun and get the rivets set in about 1.5 seconds. I believe this is what the instructions for the gun said. Next time I'm going to try the lower line pressure to see if there is a difference. There are other things attached to the compressor - such as the squeezer and the pneumatic cleco tool, and those require 90 psi. My assumption was that the flow restrictor in the gun was basically doing the same job as lowering the pressure.
 
Lots of good tips and tricks here. My first thought on glancing at your photos was also that the pressure on your air is way too high.

Using the rivet gun is a lot like sharpshooting... You have to analyze your approach carefully and only pull the trigger when you're really ready, and the person bucking is really ready. It isn't a race, so take the time to ensure your position is correct. Use adjacent clecos to compare your rivet angle and ensure you are straight. If your PSI is correct, and your grip on the gun is firm, there should be no jump-back of the gun, which is what caused the dings, especially on the flush rivet in your photo.

If you don't already have some, you might find it helpful to get some of these https://www.lowes.com/pd/IRWIN-QUICK-GRIP-4-Pack-Assorted-Mini-One-Handed-Bar-Clamp/1003172496 to aid in securing small parts to your bench while you work.

The other thing I might add, (and I am proud that your wife is joining the ranks of us women who build) is that you don't have to both be experts at every skill. I will run the gun when I need to because of space constraints. I don't love it, though, and I am happy to let my husband handle it. I am much more confident using the bucking bar. Again, if the PSI is correct, and the bar is held firmly, there should be little jump-back. Once you get over the fear of injury, your feel for the technique will grow significantly. And once you trust your partner, both of you can focus solely on your side of the task, which will improve the quality of the resulting work, I promise. Figure out who is best at what and allow each other to specialize.

Best of luck, and keep working at it, it will get easier!
 
Riveting ZEN

Lots of GREAT advice in this thread for future beginners. It could be a STICKY.

I really agree with Dave's posting #43. Those two things, reducing air pressure and a tungsten bucking bar were quantum improvements for me. (Google tungsten bucking bar - ebay has some too.) They are spendy, but worth it.

The tungsten bar shines when working alone. Its small enough to fit in you palm and allows you to put your thumb and forefinger on the bar and the part at the same time. I'm talking about the gap between the bar and the part (e.g. skin.)...the length of the shop side of the rivet, if you will. With practice you will be able to feel (the ZEN part) when you are on the rivet that you can't see AND feel if you are perpendicular [the space between the bar and the part is equal on both sides] to the rivet. Having your digits on the bar and part, gives you more control as well as it keeps the bar from skiddering off the rivet and dinging the part 3-4 times before you can release the trigger! Visualize the unseen bar on the rivet; feel the gap; square it up; shoot! As was mentioned too, closing you eyes to help establish muscle memory while improving riveting ZEN.

BTW, that skiddering you are experiencing usually comes from too high of air pressure and the bar not perpendicular to the rivet centerline and rivet gun. Yes, the rivet centerline is only about 3/16" long, but that's what you have to think about. If you're not 'squared up' on the rivet with the GUN and the BAR when that bar starts bouncing, it will skidder off the rivet and ruin your part/skin.

Also, listen to the sound [more ZEN] that is made when riveting. When you are getting good rivets, you should be able to reproduce the sound that made the good rivet (i.e. length of time of the sound, which is directly related to the number of impacts to the rivet.) It will become instinctive; much like playing a music instrument. Practice, practice, practice.

I won't reiterate the use of hand and pneumatic squeezers because this thread is about bucking. They will give you much better results when riveting small parts. I agree that when, working with a partner, like has been said, communicate. "Ready, ready, shoot."

Keep at it, soon it will be fun, not frustrating. Then you can teach someone.
 
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The only other thing I can add as a tip is disassemble the practice kits you get and rebuild. You need to have rivet removal skills even more than riveting. As screwing up the removal can make an oops turn into a new part. Best tip for rivet removal is use the same size drill bit as the punch. Originally I was trying #40 drill bits with the punch. a 3/32 punch should be a 3/32 drill bit or even possibly next smaller so the punch is a snug fit. otherwise the rivet head does not always break clean.

Also For expanded instructions that might help figure out what side to dimple countersink etc. where the Vans instructions might be a bit of a head scratcher. try the "wiki" I have on the dropbox page in my signature.
 
Ok guys. Maybe we just got enough practice and it all clicked, I dunno....

Today we completed the Vertical Stabilizer without a single blemish to the skin. I didn't think it was possible. LOL

We had to drill out an re-set a few rivets that were a bit proud (on the rear spar, not the skin) but that went brilliantly. I'm still a bit stunned that it came out so well.

It looks like **** due to our lousy alodine job, but we learned some "what not to do"'s there. Should be better going forward.

We have the rudder nearly ready to assemble and a good start on the Horizontal Stabilizer as well. We were stuck waiting on some tools / supplies to do corrosion protection before we could rivet, so we skipped ahead while we were waiting. Now we have a lot of prepping and painting to do and then riveting stuff together.

Thank you all for the support!

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Alodine

Looks good.

I don't know what good it does to Alodine the outside skin, before it gets scuffed up for painting. It's Alclad, so it's pretty resistant to corrosion to begin with.

I'd spend my effort and money elsewhere. Of course, to each his own.

Cheers,
Michael-
 
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