Do you wear a parachute?

I did a search and there is a post from 2006 on the subject, but thought there would be some new opinions on the matter. Essentially I'm trying to decide if a set of chutes should be on my wish list. I am currently flying phase 1 with a borrowed unit.

I wear mine all the time during acro regardless of one up or two up! You didn't have a category for that...

My thoughts is that it is cheap insurance and there are a lot than can go wrong during acro either self induced or mechanical. This video is sobering proof of that(read the caption, he didn't try to bail, but just goes to show lots can go wrong)-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvbS-oHi9ro&list=FLA4ArhYOH2NON-TxY4zXX_g&index=5&feature=plpp_video

Better to have and not need than to need and not have! That is the old motto I subscribe to anyway...

By the way, I purchased the chute I use in my Citabria. A Softie with 5 years of service life left (mfg '97) with a fresh repack/inspection for $450. That equates to only $90 per year for my insurance! A steal if you ask me. Bottom line there are good economical deals out there if cost is a issue. Just be patient and you'll find them.

Thanks Adam! That makes sense.

Brent...

Without repeating what the prior threads show, a parachute is only part of the equation. The 2 other significant items are the drills / knowledge to use it, and most importantly ability to bail out of the aircraft.

Aside from the RV-3/4, AFAIK the RVs do not have jettisonable canopies, and there seem significant issues werer you to try and get rid of one.

So re:

Better to have and not need than to need and not have! That is the old motto I subscribe to anyway...

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I am not too sure of this?

The number of RV accidents where a chute would have helped is (very) small - and of those, even if they had chutes, how many would have:

1. Made the decision to jump in good time - especially if with a Pax
2. Managed to jump out e.g. jettison etc.

Finally, what is well worthwhile, for all flying, is a decent helmet especially with a parachute. Accident stats show that is the easiest and most effective life saver. Worst is a parachute, no helmet, and be found to have knocked yourself out bailing out

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors

PS Nice Avatar Adam
PPS I wear a Helmet for all RV flying, except occasionally SBS where it gets near the canopy. I wear a chute for formation display flying, and some test flying (1st flight, spinning, aeros)... but partly because I have one, and would be silly to need it and 'it's in the cupboard' - but when compared to other types I wear one in (Yak, Bulldiog, Extra, and Ejection Seats) I have less confidence I will be able to use it successfully.

I have owned and flown aerobatic aircraft for the last twenty years. Most of us in the aerobatic community wear them all the time, both during acro and cross country. I have read a lot of these threads about parachutes and I have not seen one argument yet that convinces me I'd be better off to leave my chute on a shelf in the hanger. Whether anyone has jumped successfully from an RV or not has no bearing whatsoever on whether you should wear a chute or not. This is your life we are talking about. You might be the first succsessful jump!

I plan on building my canopy so that it is jettisonable. I may not be successful if I ever do have to jump, but I am **** sure going to die trying. Sitting there in a burning or broken plane, hoping it will all be over soon just does not fit my worldview. I'll be trying plan A, then plan B, then plan C and so on until I run into something hard.

I do know people that have bailed out successfully, and I have also lost many friends and acquaintances who were not saved by a parachute, but I guarantee that wearing a parachute did not contribute in any way to their accident. Most of the folks in accidents I have known were killed doing impromptu low level aerobatics, and a chute will not help you if you don't first use your most important safety equipment - your good judgement. Yes, get jump training, wear a helmet, wear nomex if you want, all good ideas, and now you have more options, no?

As an instructor, probably the most important idea I try to get across to students is: always leave yourself a way out. Leaving a perfectly good chute behind does nothing but limit your options, it seems to me, and on the flip side - wearing one does nothing to increase your risks.

Having ranted all that, I realize my opinion may make some people feel defensive about their decision, so no worries - you have every right not to wear one, for whatever reason you like, and I absolutely, 100% respect that. But you will never convince me it's a bad idea to wear one.

The potential for a premptive shift of focus from flying and troubleshooting to attempting an exit is one of the reasons that I do not wear a chute... short of airframe breakup where getting out is pretty questionable anyway... I am committed to flying the plane and attempting to resolve whatever issue arises to minimize damage and maximize survivability if a forced landing or crash becomes required. Having a chute and spending critical time, perhaps prematurely, focused on unproven exit efforts that introduce a significant chance of concussion without a helmet, will certainly destroy the aircraft, and may cause unknown ground based damages is not worth what I perceive as a false comfort of having a chute.

Andy Hill said:

Andy & Ellie Hill
RV-8 G-HILZ
RV8tors

PS Nice Avatar Adam

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Thanks Andy! That picture has provided me with countless hours of motivation working on my build. It gives me thoughts of having a personal P-51 just sitting there, eager to be flown! Hope you didn't mind me using it!

I absolutely agree with you on the helmet and egress training/ drills. I rehearse my bailout sequence almost ever flight I strap on a chute!

Interesting tid bits my rigger told me (because he packs chutes for him as well)... Shawn Tucker has had not one but two successful bailouts in his career! The latest was due to lost of elevator control in his Pitts. I also remember a story about a female Extra pilot? that suffered a inflight fire over the mountains and was able to get out with a chute...

lol. It would seem this topic with RV pilots is much like having a discussion on primers! To each his own.

Need option

Whenever I skydive!

I still don't have an RV so can't comment there, but I did wear one all the time (required) when I flew gliders in the UK. I found it quite comfortable and didn't mind it being there at all. The gliders did have canopies designed to allow escape in-flight and we were required to practice getting out of the glider in a simulated "accident" (on the ground!). This last bit was most helpful and actually rather fun. Whenever the weather was too bad to fly (not that such a thing happens in the UK) we'd train on this and usually the winner got free beer at the airfield pub that day. The instructors calculated how many seconds one would have to get out and deploy the chute at our typical altitudes so we knew how much time we had to work with. Most of us (students) were too slow on the first attempt and everyone had it down in a hurry by the final attempt. As of '03 anyway I had the record for getting out the fastest

leaning towards wearing all the time.

Untill last week I've been leaving my chute behind alot. Early reports from an RV fatality here in AZ had the pilot reporting to approach that he'd lost ability to control his aircraft. Another situation where a chute would be nice to have. From abstract to very real. As mentioned above, relatively cheap insurance.

Just to be clear, it's very unlikely you will ever need to use your chute, even if you do decide to wear one. In thirty years of flying it has only happened once that I almost used mine.

A rudder cable slipped out of a nicopress sleeve (stainless steel is not a good idea for cables, it's more slippery than galvanized). I was flying a Pitts Model 12 I had been asked by the builder to demo in an aerobatic contest. I was practicing with a friend critiquing me from the ground, and when I went to recover from an inverted spin in the sequence I heard a loud "bang" as the rudder went to the floor. It's true what they say about time slowing down, it seemed to take forever for my hand to go for the canopy release, and it being a new airplane, the release was stiff to open. I got it about half way open when the plane recovered from the spin on it's own. (This is true of many planes, especially as anything under two turns is an incipient spin) So I stayed in it, but now I had to figure out how to land it without groundlooping it. I considered climbing up to 4000 or 5000' and jumping, but hated to destroy a brand new plane that wasn't mine, so we brainstormed a bit and came up with the idea to pull the pedal off the floor with the cable, and tie off the cable to the longeron so I could now use the brake on top of the rudder pedal to steer on landing. Called in the fire trucks and ambulance just in case, and I made one of the best landings I ever have! Amazing what total concentration can do!

Anyway, I very nearly did use it as I was probably at 1200 - 1500' or so when I started the recovery, but once the plane had recovered from the spin, it was nice to know I still had that option if I had decided to use it.

So since I already own parachutes I see no reason not to sit on them while I'm flying, though I truly do expect I will most likely never need to use it. RV's have such nice low stall speeds that there are lots of options putting down in small areas after an engine failure. So I have no problem with those who choose not to wear one, it is unlikely you will need it. Especially if your flying is mostly non-aerobatic, day VFR cross country flying.

So what is the story behind the spinning plane in the video?

John, most of the story is under the video info. He somehow manged to put the Tipsy Nipper he was flying in a inadvertent flat spin in which recovery inputs were ineffective. During the spin the engine quit. He almost gave up hope but never stop flying the aircraft. The aircraft thankful came out of the spin a few hundred feet about the ground. This was followed by a hasty forced landing. The aircraft clipped a barbed wire fence during the landing causing it to flip! He survived obviously and must have been counting his lucky stars for sure!

pilot28906 said:

So what is the story behind the spinning plane in the video?

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Pilot encountered a spin mode he had not previously experienced in any aircraft, and was unprepared. Many airplanes will not sustain a flat spin without power, but apparently this one will. Considering he had not had training on different spin modes, he did well to keep his head about him, not panic, and keep trying different things. He recovered by stumbling upon the correct inputs for a flat spin - aileron into the direction of the spin and waiting for a transition back to a normal spin. You can see at the end, just before rotation stopped, that the nose dropped into a more normal spin attitude from which recovery was positive with the normal anti-spin inputs.

Moral of the story, get good spin training if you're going to do spins, and approach with caution airplanes that do not have widely-known spin characteristics. It seems the report is no longer available, but I read the UK accident report on this a few years ago, and there was incredible detail on spin dynamics, what went wrong, interviews from highly experienced pilots in this type, etc. which really shed a lot of light. It was a remarkably educational report. Never seen anything close from an NTSB report.

The wild approach to his actual landing was a result of his inner ear being screwy after so many turns. Once the spin stops, you can be disoriented enough to make situational awareness very difficult. This can be trained for as well.

Would if I owned one, don't do enough acro to justify the purchase yet.

Also wonder how much crazier I'd fly if I had one?

Thanks for the input on the video. What are the probability of getting into a flat spin in an RV that is built to spec and loaded within limits?

I wear one during flight testing and aerobatics.
Wasn't offered as an option.

Mel said:

I wear one during flight testing and aerobatics.
Wasn't offered as an option.

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For me, Flight Testing/Envelope Expansion....also not a poll option.

Paul

Did the Rocket guy who broke his control stick and rode it in have a chute?

pilot28906 said:

Thanks for the input on the video. What are the probability of getting into a flat spin in an RV that is built to spec and loaded within limits?

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Most of my RV spin experience is in the RV-3 that I had, and a little in an RV-6. I've never deliberately tried to get an RV to spin flat (do them in the Pitts, though), and not even sure if an RV would do a real flat spin. Airshow pilots perform them all the time. In this context, you establish one by first entering a normal spin, then applying full out-spin aileron (right aileron with left rudder) and adding power. I know for a fact that an RV will not spin flat simply by spinning power off with out-spin aileron. All this will do is accelerate the rotation. It will not require you to alter the standard recovery technique to stop the spin.

Being able to acheive (accidentally or intentionally) a power-off flat spin is a quirk in the design. Dedicated aerobatic airplanes with neutral characteristics will not do them. For them, a flat spin is a gyroscopically-driven maneuver. It takes power to spin the the prop fast enough to cause a gyroscopic pitch up to the attitude associated with a flat spin. For these airplanes (assuming a CW-turning Lycoming type engine), flat spins only work in one direction - left rudder for upright spins and right rudder for inverted ones. Otherwise power pulls the nose toward the ground.

I have not tested the full spin matrix in RV's (normal, flat, and accelerated spins, both directions, in both upright and inverted modes), but I'm pretty confident that RVs don't have any hidden quirks in some rarely seen spin mode. In RV's, I've only done normal upright spins as well as accelerated spins (using both elevator and aileron) in both directions. I wouldn't worry about getting into a situation similar to the Tipsy Nipper in that flat spin video. Of course, all this assumes proper W&B. That being said, basic spin training is still recommended. Advanced aerobatic spin training that provides experience with ALL the modes that I mention is valuable too, but IMO not necessary if you're just gonna do some basic upright spins in your RV.