SNF cleanup costs

Fast forward almost 7 months.

Sleepy and I both got letters from the SNF president last week which were bills to cover moving our aircraft to a safe area and to de-fuel the airplane. Total cost: $2568.33 each. The letter was nicely worded saying our insurance (SNF's) won't cover these costs, please forward on to your insurance company, which we did and they paid. Nationair and Chartis were awesome throughout the whole process.

Had I not had coverage I would not be a happy camper.

Even though I had coverage, I'm still not a happy camper.

I had made arrangements to move the wreck of my airplane to a friend's hangar on the field the next morning. When I got to the airplane, the next morning it was gone. None of this was done with my permission. I could have moved the airplane at zero cost.

So if something like this ever happens again, make sure you stand guard or wrap your airplane with razor wire to keep anyone from moving it.

Sun 'n Fun management is an embarrassment. I?m ashamed to be in the same state as those jerks.
Perhaps you should write back and ask where you can pick up your fuel.

rocketbob said:

Fast forward almost 7 months.

Sleepy and I both got letters from the SNF president last week which were bills to cover moving our aircraft to a safe area and to de-fuel the airplane. Total cost: $2568.33 each.

Had I not had coverage I would not be a happy camper.

Even though I had coverage, I'm still not a happy camper.

Click to expand...

And here I would have only charged you $1,000 take all your fuel.

In all seriousness, that does seem very excessive. I get the feeling (pure speculation) that some local environmental clean-up company made out pretty well at the expense of several insurance companies and/or airplane owners.

My airplane took all of 15 minutes to move, and it took another 15 minutes to drain the fuel out of it. I really didn't want Chartis to pay this. Complete ripoff, beyond the fact that they should have never moved my airplane in the first place.

SNF

Absolutely predictable. The pond scum at SNF charged you $2500 plus for 15 minutes work done by volunteers. Why does any intelligent person go there????

That is the most horrifying thing about the whole SnF mess since living through the tornado with no public warning announcement.

Thank God for good insurance agents.

Aren't there laws against tampering with aircraft without the owner's permission? They kicked us all out--they HAD THE OPPORTUNITY to have the owners present during removal, but yet they made us all leave, stole your fuel, damaged your airplanes further, and then overcharged you for recovery costs. Sounds like grounds for a lawsuit.

Just curious, Bob -- did they itemize the invoice or just give you a total? If the latter, did you ask for an itemized list? I would like to see their math on this.

Honestly, they rendered a "service" that you did not ask for. That's their loss.

I am not an attorney but I'm curious if their pricing in any way violates Florida's price gouging statute. It was a natural disaster but I'm not sure if a State of Emergency was actually declared.

BTW: avweb has a related article.

There were two items on the letter. One for towing (~$1300) and the other was for "ACT Response". Whatever that means.

From AvWeb:

A total of 25 exhibitors and attendees whose airplanes were damaged or destroyed in the March 31 tornado at Sun 'n Fun have by now received an invoice from the show for the towing and environmental cleanup costs associated with their aircraft. In a podcast interview, SNF spokesman Jim Bernegger said the show's insurers did not cover those expenses because they consider them the responsibility of the individual owners and their insurance carriers. He said a letter accompanying the invoice recommends owners submit the invoice to their insurance companies as part of their overall claim. The total cost is about $90,000. Individual bills vary with the circumstances of the wreckage removal and the amount of oil, fuel and other pollutants spilled as a result, but all the bills are in the thousands of dollars. He noted SNF has paid hundreds of thousands of dollars in tornado-related costs not covered by its insurance.

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Maybe it's just that they don't want all those anoying little planes there anymore.

I have refrained from making comments about my experience last spring at SnF after my plane was damaged in the tornado. But hearing about how SnF is now dealing with those who had damaged airplanes I can no longer keep quiet.

I was much more fortunate than Bob or others, including my friends who had flown their Alon Ercoupe down having never been to SnF before. They arrived on Wednesday afternoon only to have their plane flipped and destroyed on Thursday. They too were kicked out of the area. They were not allowed into the grounds until sometime Friday morning after many hours of being shuffled around from one gate to the next where they were not allowed to enter the grounds. When they were finally able to get in they went to where their plane was parked to find it gone. No one could tell them where their plane was. After an hour or so they were able to track down where it had been moved. Their airplane had been moved without their permission just as many others had. They too received a bill for the involuntary moving of their airplane.

My experience was not as drastic but still disheartening. I have many kudos to give out to my fellow RV'ers as many of you came to my aid. Of special appreciation, I have to mention Victor Finch. Through this forum I was able to get in contact with him. Vic is building a 9 at Zephyr Hills, FL. My left flap was damaged. He had a completed flap that he carried out to my airplane Friday morning. He gave it to me to fly home with, which I did. He simply said, "send it back to me when you are done." Guys like that make everything right in the world even though everything around you is falling apart.

Sadly, I cannot say as much for how I was treated by the SnF organization. Although there were individual volunteers who went out of their way to assist me, overall, I was met with obstacles and road blocks when I attempted to contact an SnF representative to get something resolved concerning my damaged airplane. The organization as a whole was of little help. In fact, really, in many instances they created road blocks and obstacles that made it difficult for me to deal with my repairs.

In spite of what happened, since returning home and getting my airplane back to new again, I was willing to just let all of my bad experiences fade into the past. However, last week after my friend informed me of the letter and bill he received and I saw this thread, those bad experiences came rushing back.

Last spring's trip was our first flight in our brand new airplane into SnF. It also was our last. My wife has vowed to never fly back to SnF again. Maybe we will attend in the future but if we do we will fly commercial. Mother nature is one thing and we have little recourse but to deal with it the best we can. However, when one has to also deal with hassles created by mankind, we do have some choices that can remedy that interaction.

My wife and I were very upset with the treatment we received by SnF. We enjoy many aspects of going to Florida during SnF. Most of these have nothing to do with SnF. Perhaps we will now find ourselves going to Florida just to enjoy those other adventures and leave SnF for others. We have little desire to deal with more bad experiences like those from last spring.

If it weren't for the friends I get to see and hang out with for the week, I would never return.

There are a lot of good people there that volunteer, but its nowhere what it once was, and that is due to some management decisions.

Just to give you an idea of the sort of things that go on there. Back in 08 a friend of mine had a bunch of avionics stolen by a known aircraft thief the week before SNF. On a hunch my friend, being a police officer, beelined it down there thinking this guy was going to unload his stuff quickly at the flymart and actually found said thief with his van full of stolen aircraft parts in the campground. Long story short he was arrested and they found his Garmin 430 in his van. The Lakeland PD swat team is based on the airport and they assisted my friend in the investigation. They went back to the flymart to advise them that this guy's stuff was all likely stolen, and (unsurprisingly) the guy in charge of the flymart actually refused to take his stuff off the tables without a warrant. There were other events in this whole escapade where SNF officials were completely uncooperative until threatened.

Now I get this letter 7 months later. Seems to me they would have gotten invoiced within 30 days of the cleanup. So I'm a bit skeptical about what has transpired with the cleanup.

Sounds like someone needs to press charges for theft of your aircraft and the fuel that was in it. Just because they returned the aircraft to you 6 hours later doesn't mean they didn't steal it.

If I take my neighbor's car without his permission and then return it to him the next day I still get charged with auto theft.

I think I'd first have a lawyer send a letter asking for the actual receipts, itemized billing, and an accounting of the fuel removed and the credit (not) applied to my bill for the fuel taken, etc, etc...along with verifying the legalities that applied in that particular case/location.

If, from what I've read, SnF acted differently...I wouldn't do any of that though. Oh, well.

Screw them, I'd throw the bill straight into the garbage.

Flyfalcons said:

Screw them, I'd throw the bill straight into the garbage.

Click to expand...

Right answer.

i am biting my tongue on this one!!!!!!!

Maybe they don't want us.

I didn?t go to SnF. Never have. I?ve been to Oshkosh Imeanairventure several times. There is a lot at Osh that annoys me and I?m sure I would find a lot at SnF that annoys me, like flying my showplane to a showplane event and then being charged an admission fee to see showplanes.

But, SnF?
I?m trying hard to be objective. I used to be in a KC-135 tanker unit. If they had a fuel spill, whether a class A, B or C, everything came to a halt until the spill was removed from the ground and the leak repaired. You would not believe the supplies, equipment and procedures that are in place to immediately remedy a fuel spill. And I?m talking about a fuel spill which wets no more than a two foot diameter area on the ramp. It makes the EPA peeps go crazy, and they fine the snot out of anyone be it an ANG unit, activity duty unit, or civilian unit, caught spilling petroleum on the ground. I want to believe this is why fuel was removed from aircraft (not to mention a fire hazard!). I doubt SnF had adequate security to ensure the airplanes would not be looted or damaged further by onlookers. So, is this why they were moved? I?m sure SnF accepts risk and responsibility any time any aircraft is on their property and they do what they can to minimize that risk. Every time I fly I accept a certain amount of risk. We all do and most of us try to manage it. But, like I said, I wasn?t there.

You can bet they talked to their lawyers before the letters were sent
There is a cost, and someone is going to pay. Insurance companies and the ?government? are generally whom we seek first for relief. And, if they don?t ante-up then someone else will eat the costs.

SnF already stated they are losing thousands. Maybe they ought to lose a little more, maybe they?ve lost enough. I do know they lost future admission fees from me.

I can see why they removed the fuel and the debris, including planes-- for the safety of people and environment. We flipped our J230 back over right away to minimize fuel spillage, but that's because the Civil Air Patrol was right there to help us do it. What ticks me off is, Sun n Fun kicked us all out, and did not give anyone the option to "take responsibility" for securing their own aircraft, booths, whatever. If cleanup was truly the "owner's individual responsibility" as stated by SnF's insurance company in the AvWeb article, then at least give us the option to stay with our property until it's secured without being worried about getting hauled off in handcuffs-- which is what will happen to me if this ever happens (again ) to my personal airplane, since we don't typically pack razor-wire in our camping gear.

I guess the flip side is, the EPA could then fine all of us for "letting" our planes flip over and spill fuel. Can they do that in a natural disaster?

I don't know... I just wish owners had been given the option to stay and help clean up, to accept the cost of the salvage people if necessary, and to direct how workers treated their airplanes and where they put them.

Ugh!

What they did is undoubtedly covered in the fine print.

But it seems an insane way to treat the fly-in population. Sure makes you think twice about whether it's worth going.

Dan

I was there....

I didn't fly in...thank goodness. I did see the aftermath of the disaster. I felt like they could have done a better job in handling every aspect of what transpired. That's what you get with free help I guess (volunteers).

The first thing everyone should realize is SnF is not a group of good old boys and girls that really enjoy seeing all their friends come and have a good time. It is a group of business people that have formed some form of business unit (corporation) that has a charter to profit from this event. Their goal is to part everyone from their money as many possible ways as they can. To absorb a loss or assume a responsibility they won't let happen. You can expect that they will pass on whatever costs they can legally (didn't say ethically) get away with. The people that direct this gaggle are greedy and conniving. This is obvious from the fees and admissions that are charged to those wanting to participate.

I know everyone reading this is aware of how SnF is run. What amazes me is that even though people are repeatedly used, abused, gouged, disrespected, and threatened by the SnF organization they continue to migrate there each year. It must be some powerful need to be a part of a group that I don't understand.

It was my first time to visit SnF...it'll be my last. I did not have a personal bad experience unless you call sitting in a line to travel 5 miles that lasted 6-1/2 hours to enter the gate. I guess I could say....BEEN THERE...DONE THAT...GOT A T-SHIRT TO PROVE IT.

For now I'm headed back out to pound some more rivets.

snf

time to start a fly-in for homebuilders the same week as snf were its free to come and its about exp aircraft not warbirds somewhere in the same local start small and keep it simple and it will grow .

My opinion is that the folks at SnF put on a good show, and I've always had a good time down there. It is a for-profit organization and the folks who manage it are presumably well compensated for their work. I have no problem with that - I'm a capitalist at heart and hope everyone's business makes a profit so they can provide a good living for their family.

That said, I'd be very PO'd if they touched my airplane without my consent, and particularly, if they touched my aircraft w/o my consent and then sent me a bill for their services. They did that for their convenience/benefit, not (generally speaking) for the benefit of the aircraft owners, and they need to live with their decision(s) and absorb whatever cost was incurred as a result of their decisions.

I had gotten to the field at 8AM hoping to meet the adjuster before they hauled the cub off of my plane. All tie downs were cut 1 foot from the rings and said cub was in the "safe area" already. Thank goodness I took pictures.
Yeh....I would have cancelled the airshow that day and done the right thing.

Flyfalcons said:

Screw them, I'd throw the bill straight into the garbage.

Click to expand...

Better wording there is none...

Every now and then, at my airport at work, someone will park their aircraft in the river rather than the airport. Being the local law,we get to respond and deal with it. Most of the time, the airport authority will call out an environmental company to do the clean-up which essentially is just stringing absorbant boom material around the aircraft (which later washes out of position) and calling it good. From my understanding in talking to the company, they will bill the owner for the glorious "environmental clean-up" but the owner isn't obligated to pay it. They can only hope you will pay it. I would check with a lawyer to be sure, but if you didn't request the service, I don't think you are responsible for the bill. I'd be curious about the legalities of moving your damaged aircraft without authorization from you or the authorities.

not all bills are legal

Flyfalcons said:

Screw them, I'd throw the bill straight into the garbage.

Click to expand...

Sometimes people think that because THEY think something is legal, it must be. Sometimes when you get a bill, and people insist that you pay, the correct response is....."go ahead, make me!"

Its at that point that the law is actually referred to and opinion is pushed to the side.

It is completely legitimate to have responded with the "2 points" (small ball of paper into an open bin) response.

Just because something is written on a piece of paper doesn't give it legitimacy.

Most people forget that.

If it were me and I got that ridiculous bill I would have tossed it it instead of sending it off to my insurance company who will now probably raise the rates of everyone else to cover their losses. It is a shame that S&F is attempting to profit from others losses. I went three years ago and will not be going back, been there done that. Not worth the trip.

I have never attended Sun and Fun. I had planned on going this spring. Unless they decide to make changes in how they operate and drop these demand for payment letters I guess I will make other plans for attending a fly in.

George

IMHO thid is a good one to miss.

I am shocked by all those who suggest getting a lawyer. Isn't that what is really wrong with aviation?

Forget a lawyer, just don't go back. I was at SNF. It was a disaster. Our plane had minor damage, others suffered total loss. But that's why you have insurance.

Geez...

Wow, guys. I understand it?s a bad situation, but the anti-SNF sentiment is running a little strong. Personally, I?ve always enjoyed my SNF visits each spring ? I?ve flown in and driven there to camp. Yes, it?s expensive. And it costs a lot to house, protect, entertain, and feed a couple hundred thousand people. There are a lot of logistics involved. Disney World is expensive, too ? I thoroughly enjoy it and find the cost worth it.

From an insurance standpoint, removal of wreckage and fuel spill clean-up is your responsibility as an aircraft owner ? and why you carry hull and liability insurance. As many pointed out, SNF is a business ? and one that really makes 95% of it?s revenue in six days out of the year. They can?t lose a day having tinkering aircraft owners remove damaged airplanes at their leisure. If you crashed your car through the front wall at Wal-Mart, do you think they?d just let you leave it there until you and a buddy could arrange to have it pulled out in a day or two?

Should they have let you stay with your airplane? In hindsight, maybe. But, they were also managing a large crowd during a significant disaster. What if your airplane had been looted while it lay there accessible to the general public? Or you were injured or killed trying to flip it back over without proper equipment? Maybe better to close the area and go ahead and move them. Those are the decisions that business people are faced with in managing a crisis.

I?ll go back to SNF. I?ll whine about the high price of camping and hot dogs. And I?ll also complain about $6.00 a gal gas and $30,000 engines from Lycoming. But that?s just part of the deal. It?s still more fun than golf.

Some entity made about $100,000 in just a couple of hours. RocketBob was taking full responsibility but didn't get the opportunity since cleanup must have started at daybreak or before. He had no option. I arrived at8am or so and the moves had already taken place. Getting anything done the day before would have been impossible.
The right thing would have been to cancel the airshow the next day. SNF organization making money should not have been top of list. Despite the obvious on those who were directly affected, The cost of insurance on us all is the outcome.

Rocket Bob, did your airplane leak any fuel?

Could you have move it yourself if shown a parking place.

Inquiring minds....

If you throw that bill in the trash, and then it ends up in collections, then what? What about when that bill collector files suit?

I'd write my own response letter to SnF for detail and justification in response, but if you don't really know what you are doing, it is better to have someone who does (like a lawyer) write it for you... And given proper accounting, I might very well pay that bill too, but I wouldn't just roll over -- or leave myself open to needless liability.

Tony, I was suggesting "checking" with a lawyer as to the validity of the bill. There are a million people out there that want to separate you from your money by whatever means. You know, like user fees, ramp fees, fuel-flow fees, thanks for landing here,now give me money,etc.,etc. We all know that airplane owner's are filthy rich and don't mind giving away money to whoever asks.

It sounds to me like the insurer informed SnF's management that they knowingly, or otherwise, overstepped the limit of their liability insurance. Normally when someone does this, they have to assume responsibility for their own misstep. If SnF rear-ended your pickup, they wouldn't order you a custom bumper to replace your factory bumper and then send you a bill for the difference. In a sense, this is what they appear to have done.

Ordering you from the premises was most likely done to limit their exposure to liability in the event of your being injured. The cost of moving your airplane was the premium owed by SnF or their insurer for limiting that liability exposure as well as exposure to EPA or other regulatory violations. In other words, they assumed full responsibility for your property the moment they separated you from it to impose and benefit from that limit to personal injury and regulatory exposure.

I would send them a bill for the fuel, oil, any other missing parts, plus expenses incurred due to their having ordered you from the premises without your property. The amount should be greater than or equal to the amount of the bill they sent you.

tadsargent said:

Rocket Bob, did your airplane leak any fuel?

Could you have move it yourself if shown a parking place.

Inquiring minds....

Click to expand...

Not a drop. And yes it was easy to move.

A Sun'n Fun experience

Several years ago, we had several pilots here in North Alabama who would make the trip down to Lakeland. We used to have a good time...

But on one occasion, when a friend and I were returning to the Lakeland airport property to depart for home, my "eyes were opened." We had been there for three days and had paid daily admission prices. We had stayed in a motel near Tampa and had just returned our rental car at the Lakeland airport.

When we got to the gate, we were informed that we had to pay the daily admission charge to get to our airplane (RV-6A). My friend, being the quicker thinking of us, immediately told the gatekeeper, we were going to walk straight out there to our airplane, and he could watch us if he wanted to, but we were NOT going to pay their stupid daily admission fee.

Maybe their policy has changed since then. I don't know; I don't care. I have lost interest in going to Sun'n Fun. To me, it's similar to going to a county fair. I used to go to the county fair, but when I went to Disney World, I lost interest in going to the county fair. Well, I went to Oshkosh (Airventure) several years ago, and Sun'n Fun just doesn't interest me anymore. I've lost count of how many times I've been to Airventure.

rv7boy said:

When we got to the gate, we were informed that we had to pay the daily admission charge to get to our airplane (RV-6A). My friend, being the quicker thinking of us, immediately told the gatekeeper, we were going to walk straight out there to our airplane, and he could watch us if he wanted to, but we were NOT going to pay their stupid daily admission fee.

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Ann & I attended S&F almost religiously for about 20 years. Around 2005 we got totally fed up with some of their practices and haven't been back. I could tell you stories!

Like arriving within 15 minutes of closing time the day BEFORE the show started and being told we would have to pay for the day. (DID NOT!)

Sun N Fun Cleanup Podcast

rocketbob said:

Not a drop. And yes it was easy to move.

Click to expand...

Bob,

Just found this podcast on Avweb about this letter with SNF's Jim Bernegger, he spoke with AVweb's Russ Niles.


(http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcas...InsuranceClaims_205659-1.html?kw=RelatedStory)

If the airplane owners carried physical damage coverage then the insurance companies will pay for these invoices. However if the owners were carrying only liability coverage there is no coverage and the insurance company will not pay for this invoice.

Jenny Estes
NationAir Aviation Insurance
877-648-8267

I've been attending Sun-N-Fun since the 70s and agree that it's gone downhill ever since Burton and gang took over. Improvements disappeared, gouging vendors, etc became the norm and a take it or leave it attitude is prevalent in most decisions.
It's main basis is as a trade show/fly-in, but they are willing to totally disrupt that with the T-Birds/Blue Angels strangling activity as well as multiple "evacuations" of campgrounds, etc. in an attempt to improve the gate with non aviation folks (who don't buy from the vendors and have nothing to do with the trade show or fly in aspect) Never understood why they don't invite the Angels/T-Birds a couple of weeks earlier for an AIRSHOW ONLY. Their utilization of the grounds 51 weeks of the year is appalling.
It's time to take this show back.
Let's start a Fly-in (same week) at Bartow or Sebring, invite vendors and have minimal to no airshow. I doubt Sun-N-Fun, with their grandiose payroll, would last 2 years if even 20% of attendees and vendors kissed them goodbye.

Maybe it's time.

[QUOTE
Let's start a Fly-in (same week) at Bartow or Sebring, invite vendors and have minimal to no airshow. I doubt Sun-N-Fun, with their grandiose payroll, wouldn't last 2 years if even 20% of attendees and vendors kissed them goodbye.[/QUOTE]

We could set an example for the Wall Street Occupier crowd. That is, if you don't like what you see then make something better.
Sebring/Bartow/Winter Haven have potential. Start small and see what happens.
How do we go about making this a reality?
Don

I just love how a for profit company can expect no risk/loss in a disaster where the show participants pay them for the privilege of being a part of the show. If there were no participants, there would be no show.

show

A friend of mine and myself have been thinking about this for a few years and have meet to talk about starting a new fly -in for plane owners that love planes and dont need airshows to have a good time and no fees to come to the show why do people that fly in have to pay anyway so we can buy the war birds gas to come to the show stupid.

turbo super rv-10 said:

A friend of mine and myself have been thinking about this for a few years and have meet to talk about starting a new fly -in for plane owners that love planes and dont need airshows to have a good time and no fees to come to the show why do people that fly in have to pay anyway so we can buy the war birds gas to come to the show stupid.

Click to expand...

This sounds like Triple Tree.

I have no comment about Sun and Fun....

However, I do remember a recent rash of threads throughout numerous forums, in which many of the GA public were showing displeasure for RVs and the pilots who fly them.

And now I'm sensing some animosity, in regards to RV pilots, that seem to have something against War Birds, whether it's WWII vintage or present, such as the Blue Angels. Personally, I enjoy looking at War Birds. My RV is painted as such. I wouldn't care much for a large show..........in which they purposely aren't invited.

L.Adamson

jestes said:

Bob,

Just found this podcast on Avweb about this letter with SNF's Jim Bernegger, he spoke with AVweb's Russ Niles.


(http://www.avweb.com/podcast/podcas...InsuranceClaims_205659-1.html?kw=RelatedStory)

If the airplane owners carried physical damage coverage then the insurance companies will pay for these invoices. However if the owners were carrying only liability coverage there is no coverage and the insurance company will not pay for this invoice.

Jenny Estes
NationAir Aviation Insurance
877-648-8267

Click to expand...

Err... wouldn't the toxic spill bit be covered under liability?

L.Adamson said:

And now I'm sensing some animosity, in regards to RV pilots, that seem to have something against War Birds, whether it's WWII vintage or present, such as the Blue Angels. Personally, I enjoy looking at War Birds. My RV is painted as such. I wouldn't care much for a large show..........in which they purposely aren't invited.

Click to expand...

Wrong interpretation. The new fly-in would not charge non-warbird pilots to subsidize the warbird pilots. Any pilot welcome. Pay your own way.

az_gila said:

Err... wouldn't the toxic spill bit be covered under liability?

Click to expand...

Environmental damage is specifically excluded under liablity. BUT - clean up of fuel spill following an otherwise covered loss is included under hull coverage.

So no.