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Tail Wheel vs Nose Wheel accident numbers

Webb

Well Known Member
Sponsor
Lot's of discussion on flip overs of A's lately. Also its been said that a ground loop is not a question of if but a question of when.

Can any of you computer gurus pull any data to provide a factual comparison between the two? Would also help to know the number of nose draggers vs tail draggers for percentage comparison.
 
Yeah, I did this research last year. I was mostly concerned with attempting to figure out the impact of the A-model doink-over, but you can see that accidents are fairly even between the two configurations given my considerable margin of error.

According to what I have been able to pull up from the NTSB database from 1/1/2000 to 9/25/2010:

I counted 300 total RV accidents broken down as follows:
66% non-A models
34% A models
32% (95) of the total RV accidents were fatal
57% (54) non-A of the fatal accidents--2 of those were nose-overs
43% (41) A models of the fatal accidents--4 of those were nose-overs
38% of the tricycle accidents ended with a nose-over
23% (70) of the RV accident reports have the term "nosed over" in the narrative. 'Nosed over' may not be an official catch-all, but it appears to be the term used when the airplane rotates about the nose and comes to rest inverted. Also, nearly all of the "nosed over" reports mention nose gear failure.
17% of all RV accidents reported were A model doink-overs

Nose-overs are broken down as follows:
71% (50) A models
29% (20) non-A models

Conclusions:
This is not an exact science and it can be difficult to tell the apples from the oranges when reading accident reports.
Tri-cycle gear RVs are not significantly less accident-prone than conventional gear RVs. That is, unless there are fewer tail dragger RVs flying than tri-cycle RVs. I sort of assumed a slight edge to the tail dragger.
Nosegear failure contributes to 17% of all RV (tail dragger and nose dragger combined) accidents and 1% of the fatal accidents
Rollover accidents in RVs are not particularly deadly, always but substantially damage the airframe.
Rollover accidents occur more that twice as frequently in A model RVs as in non-A model RVs and rollovers are twice as deadly in A model RVs.
Most of the nose-overs happen after botched landings, but a fair number are due to engine failure and related off-airport landings.
Stipulations:
I don't know the total number of flying RVs and how many of each type there are.
Not all accidents are reported to the NTSB.
Model names can be misrepresented by the reports.
I did not consider other accident causes and a fair number cite improper landing technique.
There is a lot more to be gleaned from the NTSB reports, but this is all I had time for. If you don't like my numbers, go figure your own.
 
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Lee...

I think that is a pretty good analysis, especially since you "caveat" where the weaknesses might lie.

One point:
That is, unless there are fewer tail dragger RVs flying than tri-cycle RVs. I sort of assumed a slight edge to the tail dragger.
My guess would be more than a "slight edge" to the taildragger? Vans might be willing to furnish you with that information?

Overall, I don't think it important to narrow this down to exactly which has more accidents. I think it generally accepted that the taildragger should have a significantly higher % of accidents, particularly landing (even takoff) ones, and taxiing. If the nosedragger % is even approaching that of the taildraggers, there is a significant problem.

It will take a good number of installations, and over a good period, to see it the "anti nose splat" mod works, but at least you have provided a starting point as it becomes available...

Andy
 
Another Caveat

Doesn't break down RLOC accidents as compared to all the others.

Statistically, only accidents that happen during T/O or LDG phase should really matter in this question.

If a tail dragger augers in because of a spin it doesn't have a lot to do with the configuration...

Just sayin...

this bunch of numbers doesn't begin to tell a story.
 
Is my math wrong or does that add up to 110%?

Just sayin'

Yeah, the 44% was a typo. It should have been 34%. :rolleyes:

I just did the same search of the NTSB database and came up with 11 more accidents than I found a year ago when I did this little exercise. I also counted up the 'A' models and the revised percentage worked out to 33.4%. Take it all with copious amounts of salt granules.
 
""Also its been said that a ground loop is not a question of if but a question of when"".

I can't answer your question but I will say I have heard this saying before and I don't agree. I also don't agree that you have to land gear up at any point if you fly retract.
 
""Also its been said that a ground loop is not a question of if but a question of when"".

I can't answer your question but I will say I have heard this saying before and I don't agree. I also don't agree that you have to land gear up at any point if you fly retract.

I have always been very irritated by both of those old sayings, mostly because they are not true.
 
lots of accidents!

What strikes me is what seems to be the large number of accidents - 300 accident aircraft out of a total fleet of some 7000, some of which don't have or haven't yet seen many hours. Not good.
This "Safety" subject is deserving of a lot more attention and effort by each of us who love this RV thing.
Bill Brooks
Ottawa Canada
RV-6A finishing (with the added task of installing this new nosewheel brace)
 
Something else to think about

Flip over or ground loop?

I would much rather ground loop than flip over. From what I have read on the A-overs, they can and do happen at any speed and I'm sure ground G-loops can happen at any speed.

That said, I would much rather be in a ground loop than a nose over. Most ground loops end with some damage but the plane coming to a rest upright.

Besides, with proper training there is no reason to have a ground loop.
 
Over the last year, there have been 34 additional accidents added to the NTSB database. Somehow, my original search missed 11. The total number from 1/1/2000 to present shows 345.
 
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BTW, does the NTSB even record a ground loop or minor damage?

A friend had a hard landing in his -9A, the nose gear tucked under and he had a prop strike. This happened at a controlled airport and no report was ever filed.
 
Only substantial damage or fatalities are reported to the NTSB. There is no way to count minor accidents.

See CFR Title 49 Part 830 for more info.
 
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the numbers game.....hard to see thru the fog!

I appreciate all these numbers for what they are...indicators, food for thought, or action?
but still, each flight is a wildly varied risk buffet.
It sounds like if I lose an engine, and dead-stick perfectly into a hay field, it's pretty likely I'll flip my -9a, and then a 34% chance I'll die?????
I don't think I'd ever go up if I really believed that!
how does that compare to the classic low-time VFR jock ( me) on a cross-country, into deteriorating weather etc. etc. Could end with CFIT, or an off-field precautionary landing that ends with the same fatal result.
Of more concern is that these numbers don't, and likely never will, tell us that plane A is more dangerous than B, when piloted by experience level C, on mission D,E, F.
If it were possible to quantify, we could avoid the 'higher-risk scenarios', and our survival rates would go up, and insurance rates down.
I'd love to see those numbers, but ain't gonna hold my breath.
 
From http://registry.faa.gov/aircraftinquiry/AcftRef_Inquiry.aspx

RV-6 1133
RV-6A 1068

RV-7 434
RV-7A 649

RV-8 919
RV-8A 254

RV-9 60
RV-9A 504

The total split is surprisingly close to even. I'm sure the numbers are not perfect, but, to coin a phrase, they are close enough for government work.

Add in the 271 RV-3s and 1341 RV-4s and the split seems to favour taildraggers. The number of -10s and -12s are much smaller. The RV-3 and -4 data came from Van's First Flight page, and was current as of 11 Nov 2011.
 
I appreciate all these numbers for what they are...indicators, food for thought, or action?
but still, each flight is a wildly varied risk buffet.
It sounds like if I lose an engine, and dead-stick perfectly into a hay field, it's pretty likely I'll flip my -9a, and then a 34% chance I'll die?????
I don't think I'd ever go up if I really believed that!

It seems you are mixing probabilities with basic stats. We haven't calculated any probabilities. All I did was count the accidents, read all the reports, and from the narratives determine which ones were doink-overs. I gave percentages based only on that sampling, nothing more. I think I figured that out of that sample, only 1% of the fatality accidents were doink-overs.

Past performance does not guarantee future results. :D
 
Bottom Lines

Bottom Lines

Based on my previous, perilous treks into RV nosewheel vs. tailwheel territory, here are some objective "bottom lines" I have learned (the hard way!):

Both RV models are SAFE.

About 7,000 RVs, roughly half nosewheels and half tailwheels, are flying with NO DAMAGE HISTORY!

For RVs, regardless of model, the vast majority of accidents/incidents are pilot error (proficiency, judgment, skill). If you are seriously interested in safety, look in the mirror.

For the tailwheel RVs, if you have over 100 hours of tailwheel time, some of it recent, you should be "good to go."

For the nosewheel RVs, if you are proficient in soft field operations, particularly in an aircraft with a non-damped, non-steerable nosewheel, you should be "good to go."

For the nosewheel RVs, two recent modifications (Van's and Anti-Splat) have improved the nosewheel's tolerance for rougher-than-expected operations.

Trying to determine relative RV model safety from reported statistics is a meaningless exercise!

Happy RV Flying to All (even the biased tailwheel people!).

Bill Palmer :)
RV-8A Finishing Kit
 
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Meaningless exercise?

Accident stats have a long and storied history of driving design and purchase decisions; some good and some not so good. How do you know the RV design is even safe, if you put no stock in accident numbers? :confused:
 
<snip>
For RVs, regardless of model, the vast majority of accidents/incidents are pilot error (proficiency, judgment, skill). If you are seriously interested in safety, look in the mirror.

Bill Palmer :)
RV-8A Finishing Kit

Thank you Bill!

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
""Also its been said that a ground loop is not a question of if but a question of when"".

I can't answer your question but I will say I have heard this saying before and I don't agree. I also don't agree that you have to land gear up at any point if you fly retract.

That saying is to make those of us that have feel better. ;)
 
% accidents matches population distribution

Yeah, I did this research last year. I was mostly concerned with attempting to figure out the impact of the A-model doink-over, but you can see that accidents are fairly even between the two configurations given my considerable margin of error.

According to what I have been able to pull up from the NTSB database from 1/1/2000 to 9/25/2010:

I counted 300 total RV accidents broken down as follows:
66% non-A models
34% A models
32% (95) of the total RV accidents were fatal
57% (54) non-A of the fatal accidents--2 of those were nose-overs
43% (41) A models of the fatal accidents--4 of those were nose-overs
38% of the tricycle accidents ended with a nose-over
23% (70) of the RV accident reports have the term "nosed over" in the narrative. 'Nosed over' may not be an official catch-all, but it appears to be the term used when the airplane rotates about the nose and comes to rest inverted. Also, nearly all of the "nosed over" reports mention nose gear failure.
17% of all RV accidents reported were A model doink-overs

Nose-overs are broken down as follows:
71% (50) A models
29% (20) non-A models

Conclusions:
This is not an exact science and it can be difficult to tell the apples from the oranges when reading accident reports.
Tri-cycle gear RVs are not significantly less accident-prone than conventional gear RVs. That is, unless there are fewer tail dragger RVs flying than tri-cycle RVs. I sort of assumed a slight edge to the tail dragger.
Nosegear failure contributes to 17% of all RV (tail dragger and nose dragger combined) accidents and 1% of the fatal accidents
Rollover accidents in RVs are not particularly deadly, always but substantially damage the airframe.
Rollover accidents occur more that twice as frequently in A model RVs as in non-A model RVs and rollovers are twice as deadly in A model RVs.
Most of the nose-overs happen after botched landings, but a fair number are due to engine failure and related off-airport landings.
Stipulations:
I don't know the total number of flying RVs and how many of each type there are.
Not all accidents are reported to the NTSB.
Model names can be misrepresented by the reports.
I did not consider other accident causes and a fair number cite improper landing technique.
There is a lot more to be gleaned from the NTSB reports, but this is all I had time for. If you don't like my numbers, go figure your own.

Based on the data for the number of A models and tail draggers presented in this thread the accident distribution matches very closely. Of the 3,4,6,7,8,and 9 model RVs 2475 are A models and 4158 are tail draggers. That is 37% A models and 63% taildraggers. So the accident rate present in the FAA data base matches pretty well the distribution of types of airplanes flying. We can conclude they are about equally likely to have an incedent reported. The Nose over rate however is (not surprising) is much higher for the A models
(50/2475 vs 20/4158 roughly).
 
It's the Pilots!

John,

It?s probably more accurate to say the nose-over rate WAS higher for ?A? models based on the reported data. There is no way to know from the reported numbers the effect of the recent nosewheel mods or, more importantly, increased pilot awareness of proper ?A? model operation. Again, I would suggest that the individual pilot is the best place to look for analyzing and improving RV safety. Both RV models, as designs, appear to be safe. From the numbers, the one inescapable, valid conclusion is that it?s the pilots (us!) that need further development!

Bill Palmer :)

P.S. I wonder what this thread would look like if the rate of RV tailwheel model ground loops and prop strikes were analyzed in detail? :eek: Based on past experience, I don?t think one would be able to draw valid conclusions about RV tailwheel safety from the reported numbers. Once again, as always, it would boil down to the pilot; not the RV tailwheel (or nosewheel)!
 
No doubt it's the pilot, but I'm not sure ground loops are really comparable to doink-overs since it is reasonable to assume that most of them do not get reported because they do not meet the "substantial damage" or "injuries" criteria for reporting an accident. I suspect a lot of non-doink-over nose gear fails do not get reported for the same reason.
 
Assuming there are 2,700 RV NG flying,
and the average RV does 100 landings per year.
We are looking at 270,000 landings per year.
Even if they only do 50 landings a year (this is only an estimated average),
that's 135,000 landings a year!
If the NG design is deficient,
you will be seeing a lot higher incidents (and at a more regular interval) than what is reported.

Just my 2c.
 
Interesting thought - Staying current

Since January, when I got my -9 flying again with the new engine I have put 83 hours and performed 147 landings (Lots of YE flights in there) for a a ration of 1.8:1 landings per flight hour.

If I go back to when the plane first flew the numbers are 537 landings to 337 hours for a landings per hour ratio of 1.6:1.
 
Not germain to this thread but ...

its been said that a ground loop is not a question of if but a question of when.

I actually believe this old saying is pretty faithful. The clarification is this "generalization" - like all statistics - conciders the entire fleet of conventional gear airplanes. There are some designs less prone to ground loops and some designs more prone.

For example, my RV-8 is pretty docile until the cross wind at landing suddenly bumps up to 18kts at 90 degrees (and my experience was that I prefer not to repeat dancing on the head of is particular pin). Contrast that with a Stearman in an unexpected 5-7kts cross wind and very quickly the back end can try to take lead.

Back to this thread, the challenge with all of the accident data is that it's a limited data-set. It takes a large time range to cet a sufficient sampling and over that same time, the type of aircraft, distribution, pilot hours, runways, ADs, etc alter the data.

If we assume it takes the average builder 5+ years to build (more for the slow build kits). Then in 2000, nearly all the flying RVs would be 3, 4, 6, 6A, and some 8 models. Thus, the majority of RVs would be conventional gear. Fast forward to 2010 and it may be that more pilots are based at public and private airports with paved runways and thus tricycle gear RV's are significantly more prevalent than a decade ago.

My conclusion is that the RV is a well designed series and there are characteristics of each design which require attention. I would suspect Vans Aircraft would update the designs if there were statistical data suggesting a design was inferior or would widely benefit from a change.

JMO, YMMV, OFI, M2C
 
Assuming there are 2,700 RV NG flying,
and the average RV does 100 landings per year.
We are looking at 270,000 landings per year.
Even if they only do 50 landings a year (this is only an estimated average),
that's 135,000 landings a year!
If the NG design is deficient,
you will be seeing a lot higher incidents (and at a more regular interval) than what is reported.

Just my 2c.

It has been demonstrated that landing is not the only operation that can result in biffing the nose gear or doinking over. The design is clearly deficient. The magnitude of the deficiency is what is questionable. A lot of really smart dudes seem to perceive a relatively high probability of doinking. I suspect that's why Mr. Anti-Splat almost can't make his doo-hickeys fast enough. :cool:
 
...The design is clearly deficient. The magnitude of the deficiency is what is questionable.

While I respect your right to have an opinion on the subject, if you're going make multiple conclusion, as if they're factual, providing the data you've based your conclusion on would add substantially to your credibility. Note that the person you just quoted did exactly that, and has a level of credibility for doing so. I may choose to agree or disagree with him but at least I know the basis of his conclusion.

It is easy to misunderstand statistics, even when you're trying to discern what they're telling you. Without your data, I opine that you are doing a disservice by posting opinions as conclusions.
 
While I respect your right to have an opinion on the subject, if you're going make multiple conclusion, as if they're factual, providing the data you've based your conclusion on would add substantially to your credibility. Note that the person you just quoted did exactly that, and has a level of credibility for doing so. I may choose to agree or disagree with him but at least I know the basis of his conclusion.

It is easy to misunderstand statistics, even when you're trying to discern what they're telling you. Without your data, I opine that you are doing a disservice by posting opinions as conclusions.

Definition of DEFICIENT

1: lacking in some necessary quality or element <deficient in judgment>

It is my opinion that landing gear should not tuck on landing or roll out under all but the most extreme conditions. In this case the necessary quality would be to NOT tuck and cause a rollover. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that this landing gear design can and will tuck under what I consider less than extreme conditions.
 
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Tailwheel Nosewheel Neither?

LeeM_2000,

Are you building an RV tailwheel, nosewheel, or neither? If neither, which way are you planning to go? (Your profile says your RV of interest is the "7," but I suppose it could be 7A, since Doug doesn?t have an "A" designation option for the profile.)

Thanks,

Bill Palmer :)
 
deficiency

I'll vote with the comment about the pilots of wrecked airplanes being the major problem. With proper training and experience and paying attention in the landing/taxi phase of flight, there is no reason to ground loop a taildragger and no reason to "doink over" an A model RV. I don't believe that any of Van's demonstrators have ever "doinked over" or ground looped. Of course, extreme conditions will be an exception to my comment. I believe that both models are safe, but both require a certain level of skill to fly without incident.
 
Happy Holidays

Lee,

I wouldn?t recommend concluding from the accident statistics that either RV model is ?deficient? from a design standpoint. The past accident data actually says that pilot error (proficiency, judgment, skill) is the main safety issue for both RV models; not design. If you strip-out pilot error and non-RV-design causes (engine outs, for example), there is virtually nothing left in the accident database; certainly nothing statistically valid for influencing a model choice decision. In other words, the past accident statistics prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that both RV models are historically safe from a design standpoint. Certainly, their mutual, relatively low stall speeds point to increased safety. Also, both RV models are constantly being improved; particularly the nosewheel models lately (Van's, Anti-Splat, new wheels/axles, spacers, etc.). Nosewheel RV pilots are clearly more aware and improving. In fact, nosewheel nose-overs may already be a thing mostly of the past; not the future.

Bottom Line: In my opinion, concluding that any RV model, nosewheel or tailwheel, is unsafe or ?deficient? based on past accident statistics which point overwhelmingly to pilot error is both an invalid exercise and a trip to the ?Dark Side? of Van?s Air Force! I would suggest that the glass is almost completely full for both RV models and not even close to empty for either! In the spirit of the holidays and Van?s Air Force camaraderie, if one has something positive and useful to contribute to the overall RV community, then go for it! Otherwise, it might be best to think twice before concluding that one RV model is more dangerous and not as good another RV model or that both RV model designs are somehow ?deficient.? There really is no objective, complete, or even possible database to prove that either RV model design is unsafe or ?deficient.? In fact, practical experience, numbers flying/building, and just plain common sense say that both RV models are the greatest homebuilt aircraft ever designed! Pick either one you like; you won?t be sorry! You?ll only risk being sorry if you select something else!

Happy Holidays to All RVers!

Bill (Sometimes ?Darth Nosewheel,? but Trying To Be ?Luke for All RVs? Skywalker) Palmer :)
 
In the spirit of today

BLACK FRIDAY

So far unless I'm really missing something here we can draw no conclusions about A model safety here.

Unless you strip out everything but landing accidents all of this about which is safer is moot.

Just looking at the NTSB database about RVs as a group tells me nothing.

They are like any other aircraft in that YOU have to operate them safely and within your and their limitations.

Big wheel/little wheel, from all the above statistics in this post nothing tells me one is safer than the other.

Now, go out and go shopping.
 
Lee,

I wouldn’t recommend concluding from the accident statistics that either RV model is “deficient” from a design standpoint. The past accident data actually says that pilot error (proficiency, judgment, skill) is the main safety issue for both RV models; not design. If you strip-out pilot error and non-RV-design causes (engine outs, for example), there is virtually nothing left in the accident database; certainly nothing statistically valid for influencing a model choice decision. In other words, the past accident statistics prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that both RV models are historically safe from a design standpoint. Certainly, their mutual, relatively low stall speeds point to increased safety. Also, both RV models are constantly being improved; particularly the nosewheel models lately (Van's, Anti-Splat, new wheels/axles, spacers, etc.). Nosewheel RV pilots are clearly more aware and improving. In fact, nosewheel nose-overs may already be a thing mostly of the past; not the future.

Bottom Line: In my opinion, concluding that any RV model, nosewheel or tailwheel, is unsafe or “deficient” based on past accident statistics which point overwhelmingly to pilot error is both an invalid exercise and a trip to the “Dark Side” of Van’s Air Force! I would suggest that the glass is almost completely full for both RV models and not even close to empty for either! In the spirit of the holidays and Van’s Air Force camaraderie, if one has something positive and useful to contribute to the overall RV community, then go for it! Otherwise, it might be best to think twice before concluding that one RV model is more dangerous and not as good another RV model or that both RV model designs are somehow “deficient.” There really is no objective, complete, or even possible database to prove that either RV model design is unsafe or “deficient.” In fact, practical experience, numbers flying/building, and just plain common sense say that both RV models are the greatest homebuilt aircraft ever designed! Pick either one you like; you won’t be sorry! You’ll only risk being sorry if you select something else!

Happy Holidays to All RVers!

Bill (Sometimes “Darth Nosewheel,” but Trying To Be “Luke for All RVs” Skywalker) Palmer :)

I think you misunderstand what I mean by 'deficient.' I never equated deficient with unsafe. I admitted that the numbers don't point necessarily to an unsafe design. To me they point to something that is less than perfect. Less than perfect = deficient or improvable. Hence, the Anti-Splat product.

However, to better explain what I consider optimal, it is my belief that airplanes should generally remain upright when they roll out after all but the hardest of hard landings (aka cartwheels, death spirals, etc...). I think they should remain upright during and after a nosegear failure. I also think you should be able to have an off-airport landing and remain upright. That does not seem likely in an A-model given the accident narratives I read.

Speaking of deficiencies; you know, the iPhone 4 receives a signal just fine if you hold it the right way or if you use one of their bumper covers. The vast majority of complaints about the "death grip" came from people holding the phone wrong or those not using a bumper. To the majority of folks, this was an acceptable design characteristic. I call it a deficiency, but it's not deficient enough to dissuade me from purchasing one. I like to think I am at least as good at holding a phone as I am at flying an airplane.
 
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Definition of DEFICIENT

1: lacking in some necessary quality or element <deficient in judgment>

It is my opinion that landing gear should not tuck on landing or roll out under all but the most extreme conditions. In this case the necessary quality would be to NOT tuck and cause a rollover. There is plenty of evidence to suggest that this landing gear design can and will tuck under what I consider less than extreme conditions.

:rolleyes:


Lee,

Apparently I failed to convey my difficulty with your initial post and I will own my failure to convey what I was looking for. I wanted to know the data that you were using to reach your conclusion that the nose wheel design is deficient. It was numerical data and perhaps some statistical analysis that I was looking for, not a definition of a word you used.

And, I suppose you already know the "eye rolling" icon is somewhat demeaning and inappropriate in a discussion based on facts and rational deduction.
 
pilot error, design deficiencies, durability

Its very easy to say that an airplane damaged during landing is from pilot error. Of course it is. If the pilot landed it better, there wouldn't be any damage. But that does not equate to "pilots with better technique/training/skill" would not ever have a problem.

A very skilled, high-time tailwheel pilot can still get caught off guard by a gust and groundloop. There are a number of those stories on this forum.

A very skilled, high-time tricycle pilot can still get caught off guard by an unexpected lip at the edge of pavement, or a pothole, or even let the nose down a bit too fast from a gust, and fold up a RV-6A/7A/9A nosewheel.

It doesn't add much at all to the discussion to just say it's all pilot error and stop considering that a characteristic of the airplane design is less forgiving and tolerant of less then perfect technique than it could/should be.

There is always a trade-off of strength/durability for weight and/or complexity. It is a matter of design judgement where to draw that line. But most good engineers would agree that if a very modest increase in weight or complexity can add a significant improvement in durability, it is a good trade.

Several engineering analysis have shown that the RV-6A/7A/9A nose gear strut is not stiff/strong enough in bending near the end, and striking a bump or a moderate impact can yield the strut. When it yields, it tucks under, which should be regarded as a DESIGN DEFICIENCY. A proper nose gear, when overloaded, should fail upwards, not tuck under. Given enough load, something is always going to fail. Good design should still manage that failure to minimize consequences.

The best solution for the nose gear would be to adapt the RV-10-style nose gear design to the RV-6A/7A/9A. A bit heavier and more complex, yes. Big payoff in durability, and when it does fail, it will fail upwards. The next best solution is to reinforce the existing gear - like the anti-splat device. The designer deserves cudo's for a simple, effective enhancement. And when it does fail, it will fail upward.

In the same way, there have been some discussions about making the RV-8 gear support structure a little more robust. Is it strong enough for skilled pilots and most all conditions? Yes, obviously. Could it gain more durability and suffer less widespread damage when there is a pilot mistake by some enhancement to the design. Yes. Should we just end any discussion by saying that good pilots can land it without breaking it? I don't think so. Same point: if a very modest increase in weight or complexity can add a significant improvement in durability, it is a good trade.

Examples of improving the RV-8 gear - a one-piece gear would be significantly stronger, and also heavier. Reinforcing some of some of the structural parts (the Z-channels under the floor that tie the gear towers together, and vertical stiffeners along the outboard edges of the towers) would add much less weight, and still provide a moderate strength increase.

To those that say, "if you are worried about your nose gear, look in the mirror" I would say, if you are positive that your excellent technique will never damage your nose gear, you better look in the mirror. We all make mistakes.
 
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Don:

There was a well-documented thread here a year or so ago that included a nice engineering analysis of the gear strut, and simulations of how it responds to a bump. You can search for that thread if you like.

I have also done simple engineering analysis of what the bending moment and stress is in the gear strut. It is evident that there is a moment inversion at a point directly above the axle, and forward of that, the bending moment is in the direction that makes it tuck. Further, it is evident that the bending stress is highest there, so at whatever load makes it fail, it will fail there first, instantly causing the roll-over.

My engineering opinion is that that is a design deficiency.

A small increase in the diameter of the strut in that region would prevent that. Then, at some higher load, it would yield and bend close to where the strut attaches to the engine mount. In that case, it would bend upward, not downward. This would give a progressive failure without immediate consequences. If it bent far enough, you would get a prop strike. Then, if it bent a whole lot more, the nose would hit - likely in a way that would not cause a roll over (in my opinion).




I wanted to know the data that you were using to reach your conclusion that the nose wheel design is deficient. It was numerical data and perhaps some statistical analysis that I was looking for, not a definition of a word you used.
 
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Deficient?

Steve,

Certainly, we’re all entitled to our opinions and “deficient” is apparently a subjective term open to explanation and interpretation; at least that’s what I’m reading. My opinion is that neither the RV nosewheel models nor the RV tailwheel models are deficient from an overall, integrated design perspective (integrating weight, strength, load, performance, gear, etc.). Yes, improvements and changes can always be made, and individual systems can be evaluated in isolation, but there are trade-offs in terms of weight, performance, and other specifications as you have pointed out. Certainly, one man’s “modest increase in weight and complexity” is another man’s “I’ll lose 50fpm.”

I think we can all agree that Van has achieved a winning combination of low stall speed, excellent handling characteristics, sport aerobatic capability, high climb rates, and high cruise speeds. Overall RV performance is a major design achievement, at least in my opinion. Part of that is the simple (read “light”) tapered-steel-strut nosegear design; part of that is the RV-8’s relatively light gear towers, etc. Adding weight and complexity is usually not a good way to go for RVs; particularly adding weight. Van’s recent nosegear mod (new fork and shortened gear leg) actually lowered my 8A’s nosegear system weight by 1 lb. 5.5 oz. At 30 oz., the Anti-Splat looks like a reasonable modification weight-wise. A complete nosegear redesign might not be so reasonable from a weight (performance) standpoint.

If you are saying that RVs should be designed, or should have been designed, to reduced pilot proficiency standards as for, say, training aircraft such as the Piper Warrior or Cessna 172, then I would suggest that the resultant “RV” would be quite different and would probably not perform as well as what we have today. Certainly, a professional engineer such as yourself can undoubtedly achieve a more-robust, load-tolerant, and pilot-friendly RV nosegear/nosewheel design or a better, stronger main gear system for the RV-8. If you can do so without substantially impacting RV performance/weight, please do! I agree with you that the RV-10’s nosegear design is very attractive from an engineering perspective, but I would want to execute it in titanium or possibly (dare I say it?) composites, to keep the system light for my 2-place RV. Of course, I probably couldn’t afford to purchase such a titanium or composite nosegear system; a minor annoyance.

As your engineer’s goal is to eliminate pilot error through redesign, my builder’s goal is to modify what I can (Van’s, Anti-Splat, adjustable axle, etc.) and eliminate pilot error as much as possible through education and training. I suppose the optimum answer is somewhere in between. What influences my opinion is the fact that so many RVs, about 7,000, are flying with no reported damage history. Also, for nosewheel RVs, the historic nosewheel nose-over rate is 2% and the majority of that is, in fact, pilot error. Of course, I assume you would say that the “deficient” nosegear design is responsible for a lot of that pilot error, but the reported nose-over numbers also include nose-overs resulting from engine outs, off-airport landings, and the like. Certainly, the nose-over rate directly attributable to the original nosegear design, unmodified, is low compared to the 2,500 nosewheel RVs flying; it looks like less than 1%.

I personally don’t see the actual nosegear design performance/results as “deficient.” Engineering analysis of the nosegear geometry and materials is one thing; actual results are another. I would agree that the original nosegear design itself could be described as “marginal.” I don’t think Van would agree with that assessment, but maybe he’ll post?! (Not Likely!) Does the original nosegear design “need improvement?” I think the accepted answer for that one is yes. Is the RV nosegear design, particularly as it has evolved through recent modifications, “deficient?” I would conclude No! That’s my reasoning and “2 Cents” opinion anyway! I was going to say my “non-engineer’s” opinion, but that wouldn’t be true!

Bill Palmer :)

P.S. Steve, have you considered the potential legal/business ramifications to Van’s as a result of your posts? If you haven’t already been contacted by a product liability/aviation accident attorney, I suspect you might. You are the first professional aeronautical engineer I’ve seen who has been willing to publicly document that you consider Van’s 2-place nosegear design to be “deficient.”
 
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Steve,

I appreciate the extensive reply but somehow I am no doing an adequate job of communicating my position and what I am seeking. In the past I've seen posts degrade when this happens and I don't want to belabor the point too much more.

To be clear, I don't have a position on whether the nose wheel design Van's sells is deficient or not. It appears to be sufficient based on the data presented (I am saying "appears" which is NOT a conclusion). It also appears to be the weakest link in the design based on the same data (again, no conclusion) and this is based on the relative frequency of nose gear failures. Note again, I am saying "relative frequency" - I am NOT concluding the frequency is too great. I am saying out of all the RV accidents/incidents, it is one you hear about more than any other.

So, what I have been doing is soliciting DATA from both sides of the debate. Lee made some fairly strong conclusions, which he seems to be backing off of, based on something. When asked for data he provide a definition and a smirk. It wasn't much support for his case. You have alluded to a structural analysis that you've performed and based conclusions on it and on a discussion on this website about a year ago. It would be informative to see your analysis and to have it vetted here by other engineers.

At this point, I'm trying to collect, understand, and evaluate both sides of the argument. Only then will I make a decision. In my experience, I am far more skeptical than most folks and I like to make decisions based on data, not on opinions and tradition.

It appears that both sides MAY have merit. Unfortunately, only one side has presented any substantive data or technical support (though I am hopeful you'll change this by sharing the analysis you alluded to).
 
My engineering opinion is that that is a design deficiency.

A small increase in the diameter of the strut in that region would prevent that. Then, at some higher load, it would yield and bend close to where the strut attaches to the engine mount. In that case, it would bend upward, not downward. This would give a progressive failure without immediate consequences. If it bent far enough, you would get a prop strike. Then, if it bent a whole lot more, the nose would hit - likely in a way that would not cause a roll over (in my opinion).

When I started building my 6A in the mid 90's reports started coming in about nose gear failures on the 6A. The nose gear would break at the point at which the gear entered the socket on the engine mount. When it broke the prop and cowl suffered but I don't remember hearing of any of the affected planes going over on their back although there may have been some flip-overs. In the late 90's a new gear leg with beefier diameter at the break point was produced. The early design had also incorporated a molded in place stiffener/fairing and was dropped in favor of the fiberglass model we now have. This change in design seems to have worked as I have not heard of any more gear legs breaking.

The second modification of the nose gear came out after many "A" models were collapsing the leg and/or flipping over. The mod used a different fork and modified gear leg that raised the nut and pivot point of the gear a little higher off the ground. What I find interesting is that most of the flip-overs were 7A's and not 6A's. Why?

IMHO the design changes incorporated into the 7A exacerbated the pogo stick flip-overs of the A models. The main gear is longer on the 7A and 9A making the plane sit flatter on the ground. The firewall and engine mount are also approximately 4" farther forward of the main wing spar than the 6A. Both of these changes transfer more weight to the nose gear. If one looks at the weight on the nose gear of similarly equipped 6A's and 7A's the 7A has upwards of 100 pounds more on the nose. My 6A weighs 299# on the nose while a friends 7A has 399 lbs on the nose. This is not good.

The NTSB did a great report a couple of years ago on the A model nose gear legs. I think it was this report that prompted the fork change and the modified gear leg to accept the fork.

So even though I feel the 7A is more likely to flip than a 6A I have incorporated both modified nose gears on my 6A. The NTSB report also studied tire pressure and since reading the report I now keep my nose tire inflated to 45-50lb as I also do with the mains.

The gear leg changes are adequate for the 6A but I feel more needs to be done with the design of the 7A gear. The anti-splat mod looks promising but I have not seen any engineering studies as to its effectiveness. (The videos look good) The mod may expose yet another/different weakness in the gear. Only time will tell. Since the 7A is the current model I think Vans Aircraft needs to bless the Anti-splat mod or redesign the gear.

Many of us say pilot technique will save the gear but we all know that things go wrong even for the perfect pilot. I'm not a perfect pilot so I have incorporated all the gear leg changes in hope of staying upright after landing.
 
Nose wheel bearing - elephant in the room?

Interesting thread, as they all are pertaining to topics of bending airplanes.

Between about 3 and 5 years ago there was a bunch of discussion on these forums regarding the nose wheel bearing design which was adopted in finishing kits somewhere in the very late 90's. This new design was the one with the "mushroom" components. This design included no solid axle save for the 3/8" bolt. Many had problems with the mushrooms rotating, excessive rolling friction, porpoising nose gears, etc..

My judgement was, and still is, that this axle design is the root cause of the flips, those with no other obvious factor (like plowed field landings). I believe the yoke/bearing system distorts under loads in a way which causes the bearings to bind up, locking the front wheel, with obvious results. Some of these accidents happen well after the landing phase was complete! (There is a video of a -10 on landing roll out on pavement, pushing a locked nose wheel until it stops. It then taxis normally back, albeit with a flat sided tire.)

I recall several flips occurred on planes recently converted to the higher ground clearance yoke. While I think the higher clearance yoke is a good idea, by the time the original yoke made contact with the ground, I think it was too late anyway, as a bunch of yielding would have already happened.

When the NTSB did their study, they did not make note of the bias of flip accidents to non-6A models, even though most trike planes flying at that time were 6A's. This piece of data was screaming to be explained, yet was missed. Yes, the fuse sits higher on the 7/9A's, but I doubt that is the whole story.

The older Van's design of axle included a 1.25" diameter aluminum rod, going all the way from fork to fork. This older design did not allow for bearing misalignment during flexing loads. The new design allows for who knows what kind of distortion under load. Several non Van's designs are available, each with stout axles of some sort.

Many on these forums switched to these different axle designs over the past few years. Is it coincidence that the number of flips seems to be way down? I don't know. I doubt we all got better at landing and taxiing enough to make such a difference. History would indicate we don't get better at flying that quickly. Perhaps just as many are indeed flipping, but I don't sense that.

I try, usually unsuccessfully, to get the design details of the nose wheel bearing whenever I hear about another flip.
 
My judgement was, and still is, that this axle design is the root cause of the flips, those with no other obvious factor (like plowed field landings). I believe the yoke/bearing system distorts under loads in a way which causes the bearings to bind up, locking the front wheel, with obvious results. Some of these accidents happen well after the landing phase was complete! (There is a video of a -10 on landing roll out on pavement, pushing a locked nose wheel until it stops. It then taxis normally back, albeit with a flat sided tire.)

I didn't flip. But the nose gear completely tucked under. Since it didn't fall into a rut, gopher hole, etc..............there wasn't the momentum to flip, nor did it ever feel like there was. My nose fork was the older type with the full axle. The tire remained free to turn, and there is no scuff marks. The nose leg was the newer & strengthened version.....around 1999.
The front of the wheel pant, front of the nose fork, and part of the gear leg are ground off, as the wheel pant became perpendicular to the runway surface. Was a 6A model.

edit note: No matter how small the bounce, the first bounce......add power and fly out of it. My mishap was just a small bounce, which appeared rather benign. Nothing like you'll see tail draggers do. I wasn't going to worry about it, but wish I had. Did it escalate to PIO?......possibly. I'm not sure.
 
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IMHO the design changes incorporated into the 7A exacerbated the pogo stick flip-overs of the A models. The main gear is longer on the 7A and 9A making the plane sit flatter on the ground. The firewall and engine mount are also approximately 4" farther forward of the main wing spar than the 6A. Both of these changes transfer more weight to the nose gear. If one looks at the weight on the nose gear of similarly equipped 6A's and 7A's the 7A has upwards of 100 pounds more on the nose. My 6A weighs 299# on the nose while a friends 7A has 399 lbs on the nose. This is not good.

I had also noticed the difference in ground attitude and wondered about its effect. Then Van published this, then new, bulletin:

http://vansaircraft.com/pdf/Nose_gear_service_letter.pdf

The charts at the bottom are very helpful, but I know quite a few folks who are unaware of these charts. Of particular interest is the text in blue at the very bottom right of the RV7A chart...It would be interesting if your 7A friend has seen these charts. He may want to do a new W&B after some CG shifting. Maybe some cool/heavy tail art:D

I generally would see this as being a really big concern for those folks with the angle valve engine with metal constant speed props, especially at high fuel loads, but I don't have the data...

I have an 7A with an IO-360 parallel valve with a WW200RV prop and I'm at 365 on the nose, full fuel, but no paint yet (coming soon) so I'm close but O.K. Not much margin from what Van wants to see...I'm not sure how the heavy engine+heavy prop A drivers solve it.

All best

Jeremy Constant
 
A Personal Perspective

A further, personal perspective/explanation (opinion!):

I personally consider Van’s nosegear/nosewheel design to be “marginal” for two reasons.

One is geometry. I agree with Steve that the geometry is not optimum from a load perspective although I wouldn’t go as far as saying the design is deficient. Both Steve and I would like to see an RV-10-style system or some other design on the 2-place RVs which does a better job of transferring the nosewheel load upward rather than aft. I understand that Van designed the tapered rod strut to save weight, though. An alternate geometry would probably be moderately heavier unless expensive materials are employed to keep the weight down. Certainly, Van’s existing design has proved to be generally reliable in normal use with 2,500 nosewheel RVs flying. As a result, nosegear geometry is not number 1 on my personal “marginal” list.

The main reason I personally consider Van’s nosegear design to be “marginal” is that it is very sensitive to proper adjustment of the nosewheel bearing preload (tapered bearings) and the fork bushing frictional loads.

A good example of what happens when the nosewheel bearing preload is improperly adjusted, or the bearing itself is failing for some reason, is the video posted by Mark (mcattell) on page 5 the “Anti-Splat” thread below:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=78237&page=5

Mark shot the video to show the effect of the Anti-Splat “Nose Job.” The reason why the video works so well in showing the Nose Job’s action is because the nosewheel itself is seriously dragging most likely due to a wheel bearing problem. (This is just my personal opinion from watching the video. I think Allan Nimmo of Anti-Splat came to the same conclusion. Pete Hunt noted that the nosewheel could be a badly out-of-balance as well.) Maybe Mark will post his post-flight inspection/test results.

Mark purposely landed on a smooth runway as his initial test (start smooth and progressively go rougher to see what happens . . . a good idea!). What we see is that a dragging (or seriously out-of-balance) nosewheel is fairly good at simulating a rough runway. In other words, Mark actually started “rough” although he probably did not intend to do so. We are all indebted to Mark and the other RVers who have recorded and posted nosegear videos to show the nosewheel/nosegear dynamic action. Thanks, Mark!

Numerous solutions to the tapered wheel bearing problem have been employed: adjustable axles, spacers, aftermarket wheels/axles, and replacement with ball bearings (what Allan/Anti-Splat is suggesting). The goal of all of these solutions is to properly set the bearing preload to hold the nosewheel firmly in-place relative to the axle while allowing the wheel to rotate freely with a slight amount of drag to help counteract shimmy and check by feel that the tapered bearing’s integrated rubber seals are not rotating with the wheel. The slight drag is usually set to allow the wheel to rotate a few turns (3-to-4 turns seems to be good) after the wheel is spun at slow speed by hand. I personally don’t know if anyone has found an accurate, repeatable, and quantifiable way to set the nosewheel drag statically, because the required breakout force is very low. If anyone out there has a good, quantifiable method, please post or refer us to the proper thread; Thanks!

As Alex Peterson has posted in this thread (see “Nose wheel bearing – elephant in the room?”), the sensitive thrust bearings, affected by preload, axle configuration/adjustment, and possibly yoke and axle distortion/loads, may be the main problem with Van’s nosegear design; not the strut. I would personally agree with Alex. Certainly, the strut needs help with rough surfaces (Anti-Splat “Nose Job”), but the nosewheel can certainly generate a rough ride all by itself. Heaven help the RV nosewheel pilot who attempts to land on a rough surface with a seriously-dragging or out-of-balance nosewheel!

To set the fork bushing frictional loads (anti-shimmy), Van’s specifies that the strut nut should be torqued and cotter-pinned to set the normal force on the bearing surfaces (normally the bottom of the fork bushing and top of the upper Belleville washer) such that a lateral, static breakout force of 22 pounds is maintained at the wheel axle.

Watching a 9A land, I saw what happens when the lateral breakout force has become too low. The nosewheel/fork rapidly oscillates around the nosegear strut; banging stop-to-stop; with wheelpant damage! Unfortunately, I didn’t have a video camera to record what happened. Certainly, the video would have been a strong motivator for frequently checking the breakout force!

Fortunately, the 9A pilot realized what was happening (he inadvertently touched the nosewheel first), performed a go-around, and then executed one of the nicest soft-field-style, nose-high, slow landings I have ever seen! That 9A is impressive, and increased pilot awareness and motivation works! The nosewheel did shimmy again, but wasn’t banging stop-to-stop. Afterward, we checked his nosewheel. As I recall, the lateral breakout force at the axle was less than 2 pounds. The wheel bearing preload was low enough that nosewheel would spin freely by hand with no drag at all.

After witnessing the 9A incident, I’m a firm believer in frequent breakout force checks!

In summary, I’m “marginal” on Van’s 2-place nosegear design due mainly to the sensitive, frequent adjustments required to maintain the proper wheel bearing preload and fork bushing frictional loads. The strut could be better, too. It’s hard to argue with Van’s success, though. Van’s Aircraft really “took-off” as a business with the introduction of the RV-6A.

My Personal Bottom Lines:

1. I purchased Van’s new fork and shortened my nosegear strut by an inch.
2. I purchased the Matco adjustable axle to accurately set the wheel bearing preload. I think the Grove and Beringer options are nice, but more expensive. Allan Nimmo (Anti-Splat) thinks the stock tapered bearings should be replaced by ball bearings; maybe Allan will post an explanation. I’ll listen, but the tapered bearings seem fine to me as long as they are preloaded properly.
3. I will religiously set and monitor both the nosewheel drag (wheel bearing preload) and the axle breakout force (fork bushing frictional load); frequently!
4. To provide some margin for ham-fisted moments (extremely rare, of course!) or a rougher-than-expected surface (more likely . . . I would like to try some grass runways), I’m going to purchase and install Anti-Splat’s “Nose Job.”
5. I’m going to set my nose tire’s pressure at 45-50 pounds and periodically balance my nosewheel/tire combination.
6. I’m trying to limit the maximum weight on my 8A’s nosewheel to about 300 pounds.

Given the above, I am quite confident that I will have a very robust, benign nosegear system that I don’t need to worry about on any reasonable paved surface. I am also confident that I will have a practical, safe margin for “somewhat rough” runways (paved, gravel, or grass with no big potholes, bumps, or dips) as long as my soft-field proficiency is good. Rough, uncertain strips with rocks, undulations, bushes, holes, mounds, and that sort of thing? Those are for the tailwheel folks to try!

Well, that’s it for me. Thanks to all the great posters on these forums and the efforts of Van’s, Anti-Splat, Grove, Beringer, Matco, etc. who have enabled us nosewheel folks to reach a reasonable understanding of, and have confident control of, Van’s nosegear/nosewheel system. Again, Happy Holidays to All!

Bill Palmer :)
RV-8A Finishing Kit
 
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When all else fails, read the manual--or, in this case, Van's Service Notice:
http://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/Nose_W_T.pdf

Using anything other than Van's recommended procedure, without any engineering testing or analysis, can reasonably be expected to cause problems.

Opinions don't count.

Hmm. How about opinions shaped by 30 years of mechanical engineering experience? Engineering analysis is not a cookbook, academic process, but includes judgement and insights gleaned via testing and many other methods.

I have the highest respect for engineering coming from Van's. I've also done enough product R&D over the years to be very humble to oversights.

When I first received my finishing kit in the mid 90's, I made the judgement that the rudder pedals needed strengthening, and this was before I had heard of any failures. I welded strengtheners onto them, no analysis, no testing. Van's later came out with the bulletin on them.

I slotted the fuel tank forward attach points before Van's had implemented it (I believe it was I who suggested it to them). Again, only my opinion.

In every design, there are probably 90% judgements (opinions) and 10% analysis/testing. Change the ratios a lot depending on experience and significance, but the concept will hold.

Feel free to continue using the non-solid axle and Van's bulletin on adjusting the nose wheel bearing. I won't.
 
My take on the nose wheel problem.......... http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showpost.php?p=231999&postcount=176 Go to this link for pictures that are missing from this post.

THE SEAL..THE TORQUE.. AND THE FORK
IN 1998, Van’s changed from using a CLEVELAND wheel, to a MATCO wheel for the nose of the 6A. The Cleveland wheel uses a Timken bearing #LM67040 and a felt seal. In the picture below, you can see that the bearings ride on an one piece axle… U609.


In the next picture you can see the MATCO wheel that came in kits starting in 1998. Notice the change to a two piece axle.. There is no felt dust seal like on the Cleveland wheel. Matco uses a Timken bearing #LM67000L-A. This bearing has a rubber seal built on to the outer race of the bearing.


THIS SEAL IS THE PROBLEM. It is not needed for this application. This seal makes contact with the inside of the wheel where the bearing is, and causes friction. If you torque the wheel bearing too much, it makes more friction. The felt seal is friction free. Van’s instructions say to torque this bearing to 7-10 FT LBS. This seal WILL NOT allow you to feel the set of the bearing. If you have never set the bearings on the front end of a car, then you don’t know what I mean.

IT GOES LIKE THIS….. Snug up the nut as you rock the wheel to seat the bearing. Back off the wrench about a quarter of a turn and then with three fingers (two and a thumb) and the wrench at 3:00 if right handed, work the wrench up and down to just take ALL OF THE PLAY out of the bearing, PLUS just a little more. That’s it stop there your done. Now if you just greased the bearings, and have a felt seal, the drag that you feel will be from the grease. This procedure is hard to do with the rubber seal.

NOW GET YOUR TORQUE WRENCH and check the nut. You might see about 10 to 12 INCH POUNDS. Remember, it is a nylock so read the chart.


NOSE GEARS STARTED TO FAIL about 2000, and a change was made to correct the problem. The first legs were made to flex the most close to the socket. The NEW legs as of 2000 or so were made to flex the most about 7 inches up from the 45 bend. So now when the wheel slows down due to friction in the bearing, grass, wheel fairing dragging on the tire or a pot hole or an uneven surface, the wheel tucks under and causes the fork to tilt forward. If the nut hit’s the ground, then you might bend the leg , or go over!!! If the nut does not hit, then the wheel will spring back to it’s normal position.

WARNING LABEL on the bearing as it comes from TIMKEN…….


THE FORK HAS A PROBLEM. All three of my forks (WD630) were under size between the forks. Once you pressed the wheel with the axle adapter in place, the bearings were already too tight.


SO WHAT TO DO IF YOU HAVE A MODEL “A”………


1. Trust Harmon to make you a good gear leg. That’s all we can do there for now.

2. Install the NEW FORK. More clearance is always a good thing.

3. Open up the fork so the wheel and axle adapter will just slip in between the fork with no load on the bearing.

4. Install a GROVE wheel & axle kit… part # 59-1ARV. And learn how to adjust the bearings. see image below.
The torque spec. of 90 in. lbs. is because the bearing play is fit with the center spacer, and the through bolt is not setting free play.

5. The bearing drag has been reduced by #3+4. Now work on INDUCED drag….. The places you make the nose wheel go.

6. Keep the nose wheel properly inflated and the break out force set.

On take off, my nose wheel is off of the runway at 13 MPH at full gross.

PIPER NOSE WHEEL....
CLEVELAND NOSE WHEEL...
GROVE NOSE WHEEL...
MATCO NOSE WHEEL...
Note that MATCO is the only one that uses a two piece alxe, and also the only one that used a rubber dust seal.......

YOU BE THE JUDGE.
 
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Good Points!

Thanks for the reference, Charlie

I have carefully read this bulletin before, but it hasn?t done much for me.

In terms of numbers, the Van?s service bulletin is primarily based on the Timken bearing and AN6 part specifications (18-26 in-lb and 16 ft-lb). The AN6 bolt maximum torque specification (with AN310 or 365 tension nuts) is actually a range: 160-190 in-lb or 13-16 ft-lb. Van?s does say that their experience is that the AN6 torque should be between 7 and 16 ft-lbs. That?s a fairly large range, but is understandable, since there are many variables involved. Also, frictional forces are difficult to set and manage, anyway, since they are adjusted via the normal load on the bearing surfaces, usually set via a static breakout force, and subject to change over time and with usage.

While we have a relatively precise, quantitative way of determining the breakout force (22 pounds) to set the frictional load for the fork?s bushing, we do not have the same thing for the nosewheel?s bearings. Van?s service bulletin is very good at outlining the procedure for initially seating the bearings and torquing the axle nut, but you will note that there is a caveat: ?If the seal is spinning on the axle, the nut should be tightened further until the seal stops spinning with the wheel.?

In other words, you must check the bearings visually to make sure that the bearing's rubber seals are not spinning with the wheel (spinning on the axle). A visual check is technically required. Also, a ?by hand? rotational check of the nosewheel?s drag to determine that the bearings are preloaded, seated, and working properly has proven to be a good idea. In other words, the axle torque number is secondary to the ?art? of the eye and hand.

Charlie, Thanks Again for your post.

A Request: Has anyone out there measured and recorded the static breakout force of the nosewheel/tire over time?

Warren (gasman), also Thank You for your post.

I think what you?re saying (please correct me if I?m wrong) is that the Timken bearings with the rubber seal are simply too hard to torque/preload properly due to the somewhat indeterminate drag/friction of the rubber seal upon initial installation and over time/usage. I think you are getting to the heart of my concern with Van?s design. My current solution is to go with the Matco adjustable axle in an attempt to at least take fork preload and deflection out of play. On the other hand, I assume that you would not consider that to be enough, correct?

http://www.matcomfg.com/AXLEASSEMBLYA24125INCH-idv-3657-1.html

It?s certainly an ?art? to setting the Matco/Timken wheel bearings to the proper preload. If the Grove felt-seal bearings (essentially no drag) are more predictable, safer solutions in terms of properly installing, seating, and adjusting/setting the nosewheel bearings, it does seem worth the dollars just to scrap the current Van?s-supplied Matco/Timken parts and go with something else. On the other hand, the Matco/Timken bearings are well-sealed against corrosion and contaminants, so Matco does have a point there.

Since my primary ?marginal? safety/design issue (opinion) with Van?s nosegear is related to nosewheel drag, that certainly argues for switching to the easiest-to-set bearing system (Grove is what you are recommending).

Warren, Thanks Again for your post and your procedure for adjusting the nosewheel bearings.

A Request: Can someone who has installed and flown the Matco adjustable axle assembly share their experience and conclusions with us?

THANKS TO ALL!

Bill Palmer :)
 
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