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You know its a bad landing when you're upside down!

Great Lesson Learned

My reactions:
1) A VERY generous, courageous and well-written summary that I appreciate, deeply.
2) Your wife is right up there with Sister Teresa and you're a lucky man
3) I wish you both a speedy and complete as possible recovery
4) I've recently helped several high-time nosedragger pilots get their tail wheel endorsement in my Super Decathlon and am amazed what lazy feet they have initially and how they prematurely quit flying the airplane. Could be your experience is one of the best testiments for regularly flying tail draggers: we KNOW they're trying kill us!
 
Thank you

Reminds me to try and make a full stall landing every time before the plane touches the ground. I am a low time rv pilot and I've noticed it's really easy to grease it in before getting all the airspeed out of the plane. Reminds me that too much speed can be just as dangerous as not enough. I will watch more closely and certainly keep my seatbelt tighter !

Dan the diagram is comforting for those who have sliders like me, but I worry that with a tight belt I will still hit the canopy / ground cause I like to sit so close to it for climb visibility. If I can't stretch and tap it, I'm not high enough.

Thanks again for sharing. We are all human.
 
Chuck thank you for writing about your story. I'm sure it was difficult to write but many of us benefit from hearing about this.

I want to be careful how I word this because my intention isn't to start a debate about tip up vs slider, but I'm wondering in your opinion, if you think the slider may have been more advantages in your case?

Here's why I ask. After reading stories about RV's flipping over, I have become very concerned about this. This is something I never thought about in my high wing with a steel cage. In fact, I've thought about it so much that I seriously considered selling my RV project and going with another high wing.

Every person here has their opinions on the slider vs tip-up, but I thought I would ask the person that has actually been upside down in an RV.

I've always wanted the tip-up, but it just 'seems' safer to have the huge roll bar that the slider offers.

I haven't ordered my fuselage kit yet so the choice of canopy is still open for me. I'm still not sure what to do!

Thank you.
 
Chuck,

Thanks for your account. Early on during the phase one of my 6A I bounced on landing after a straight in approach. I chalked it up to a bad approach like you did. The second time it happened: however, was from a circling approach, and I realized that the idle speed had increased. I wasn't landing any different, but the plane wanted to keep flying when the RPM increased and was bouncing like crazy. When I got down after a go-around and a very ugly landing from the second flight I checked the static RPM which was at 1050. The jam nut on the throttle linkage had loosened. Apparently, the RPM had increased slowly enough that I didn't notice. Now I always check my idle speed before takeoff. I'll bet some of these RV's could fly for miles in ground effect at 1,000 RPM. May not be what happened to you, but you might want to check the throttle linkage.

John
 
non standard patern

Thank you for sharing your experience with us. I have often made my worst landings following non standard patern entrys. Most often when straight in. It's an energy management problem, with my fixed pitch, slowing and going down at the same time is a challenge. After hearing your story I'm adding the nonstandard approach to my list of potential "gotchas" to watch out for as I plan my arrival. Best wishes on your recoveries.
 
So glad to hear you both walked-stretcher away, I installed the seat back mod in my 7A, there is about three extra inches from head to canopy with the seat reclined, I wonder if this would of helped you guys?
 
Thank you for sharing, Chuck. Glad you made it out "ok" and hope you and your wife have a speedy recovery.

grubbat said:
On another note, its interesting to note the comment of "stopped flying the airplane". I am not a flight instructor, but I wonder how many times a flight instructor will encounter a student who stops flying the airplane especially close to the ground. How do you teach or instill in your students to watch out for this behavior and how to correct? Is it sensory overload that causes a no-reaction? This is very interesting.
Click to expand...

As a flight instructor, now simulator instructor I see it all the time. High workloads, task saturation, abnormal situations. Everybody reacts differently to stressful situations. Some focus on only one task (missing everything else), some get belligerent, some start singing, some stop doing anything, some let go of the controls and give up. The "good" ones see their limitations and immediately dump everything but the basics: flying the airplane.

A few days ago I was talking to a coworker about flying his champ. He made the comment I've heard many times about "flying it to the tie downs". My response was something to the effect of "why should this only apply to tail wheels?" It got a laugh, then agreement from the gallery. It's amazing how easy it is to get wrapped up in a situation and completely forget "aviate, navigate, communicate".

One of the things that surprises me about this thread is comments about being a low time pilot. I think it's important for all of us to remember that it can happen to any of us regardless of if we have 30 hours or 30,000.
 
s10sakota said:
Here's why I ask. After reading stories about RV's flipping over, I have become very concerned about this. This is something I never thought about in my high wing with a steel cage. In fact, I've thought about it so much that I seriously considered selling my RV project and going with another high wing.

Every person here has their opinions on the slider vs tip-up, but I thought I would ask the person that has actually been upside down in an RV. Thank you.
Click to expand...

From Dan's diagram it's clear that the slider should offer the better protection.

In my case, the level of my head was above my tip up bar and this bar offered no protection. I really think that a five point harness and keeping the belts very tight would be the best way to avoid a similar injury.

Good luck with your project.
 
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bret said:
So glad to hear you both walked-stretcher away, I installed the seat back mod in my 7A, there is about three extra inches from head to canopy with the seat reclined, I wonder if this would of helped you guys?
Click to expand...

I don't think so Bret. Your head is still going to be quite a bit higher than that seat back.

Enjoy your build.
 
jpowell13 said:
Chuck,

Thanks for your account. Early on during the phase one of my 6A I bounced on landing after a straight in approach. I chalked it up to a bad approach like you did. The second time it happened: however, was from a circling approach, and I realized that the idle speed had increased. I wasn't landing any different, but the plane wanted to keep flying when the RPM increased and was bouncing like crazy. When I got down after a go-around and a very ugly landing from the second flight I checked the static RPM which was at 1050. The jam nut on the throttle linkage had loosened. Apparently, the RPM had increased slowly enough that I didn't notice. Now I always check my idle speed before takeoff. I'll bet some of these RV's could fly for miles in ground effect at 1,000 RPM. May not be what happened to you, but you might want to check the throttle linkage.

John
Click to expand...

Thank you John. I always check my idle RPM also. My earlier flight that day was good, at takeoff for PA the idle was good and so I'm pretty sure that it was good at the time of my bad landing.
 
s10sakota said:
Here's why I ask. After reading stories about RV's flipping over, I have become very concerned about this. This is something I never thought about in my high wing with a steel cage. In fact, I've thought about it so much that I seriously considered selling my RV project and going with another high wing.
Click to expand...
Without going and researching actual numbers, I have a gut feel that the vast majority of RV tip-over incidents *that resulted from otherwise normal landings* (ie. discounting off-airport events) are in -A models. I am completely willing to be corrected if someone has data showing that is not the case.

For off-airport landings, I am not sure I would expect either model to fare any better than the other for staying upright. Rough terrain could flip either design, given the right conditions. Given the variability of terrain when off-airport, the likelihood of a bump/hump/rock/tree getting between the roll-bar and the baggage compartment may be just as high whether you're in a tip-up or slider.

I prefer to think (rightly or wrongly) that as a tailwheel pilot I have to be (and hopefully am) more "on the ball" during landings... I hope that makes me less likely to miss something, and as a result less likely to end up off-runway where I may tip over.

Sorry to hear about the accident... I too am interested in anything further you may learn (if anything) about how your heads were able to hit the ground. Belts maybe not tight - check. What else... How close did your head normally sit from the canopy? Did you have thick or thin seats? I have Classic Aero's with no wedges, just the top part, and I sit about 2" below the plexi with my Lightspeed and 1" below with my helmet.
 
Chuck,

Just want to say that I hope you, your wife and the plane are back to 100% soon. I've scared and embarrassed myself a number times in 400 hours flying airplanes. The best thing about owning an RV is that you fly more often. Things like landing seem to get better from the frequent repetition and the comfort level goes up. I guess I'm saying I hope to meet you at a fly-in someday before long.

Best Wishes,

John
 
Another (nearly redundant) well wish to you and your wife, Chuck. And here's to being fully healed very soon; thanks for posting about this situation. We all need to be reminded occasionally of the risks and what sorts of behaviors we need to emulate to manage these risks. For me, I think I'll finally buy that glass breaker/cutter and keep it close by just in case I need to get out of a flipped airplane. No, I do not hope to have the chance to use it but this post got me thinking about this type of a situation again and how I'd get out, if the plexi did not shatter! Keep healing guys and be well.
 
Chuck, I want to thank you as well, and wish you and your wife speedy and full recoveries. I'm a no-time pilot, so I'll be learning from scratch as my RV-7A nears completion. I'll be keeping lessons learned from your mishap in mind from now on. I have so much respect for you for posting this for all to see and learn from.

For those wondering about a canopy cracking tool, since the subject came up, I donated my first canopy for use during a chapter 105 meeting in my shop, and some demonstrations were done. This was posted here in the forums on this thread:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=60863&page=3&highlight=canopy+cracking+video

Scroll down to post #23
 
Snowflake said:
Sorry to hear about the accident... I too am interested in anything further you may learn (if anything) about how your heads were able to hit the ground. Belts maybe not tight - check. What else... How close did your head normally sit from the canopy? Did you have thick or thin seats? I have Classic Aero's with no wedges, just the top part, and I sit about 2" below the plexi with my Lightspeed and 1" below with my helmet.
Click to expand...

I have flightline seats with a wedge under the pilots side and with the Lightspeed on, I have about 2" before I hit the plexi (5'8"). I didn't put the wedge under the right side seat, so that side has around 3" of space for my wife. A person with a longer torso is of course going to have less space.

Larry in post #32 told us about how in car racing they pull the belts extremely tight. I'll be adding that fifth point to my harness and doing just that from now on.

Thanks Rob.
 
Tight belts

Thanks for your courageous post, Chuck!

On the subject of keeping the belts tight, I used to tighten the **** out of all of them before flying aerobatics (this is more in Pitts and Extra aircraft). Even today, when I'm done with a sequence I'll often have some bruising around my waist from the high loads.

Eventually someone told me that the purpose of the shoulder harness is to keep your face from hitting the instrument panel in a crash, and that it should not be so tight that, when inverted, your body weight is carried by the shoulder harness. The lap belt(s) are supposed to carry the body's weight when inverted -- if your weight is on the shoulder harness it can injure the back. This seemed logical, so now I keep the shoulder harness just a wee bit looser, so that it does not support my weight when flying inverted figures.

I don't know that this has any bearing on Chuck's incident, but I thought it might be worth mentioning.

Hope you and your wife are back in the air again soon!

--Ron
 
i admit it, i am a wimp...

I flew a -9A a couple of years ago, and was amazed at how easy it seemed to land. this thread reminds me that a landing even in a nosewheel model can go wrong, and for that I thank you, contributors. I fly mostly a taildragger now, and like some others, I KNOW that can go wrong in a heartbeat, and for reasons I also cannot always anticipate or even always pinpoint. I am not actually scared during every taildragger landing: but it is not incorrect to say that I am WORRIED on final approach EVERY SINGLE TIME. this is not a problem, tho: as long as that is the case, I am not likely to get complacent and am likely to keep paying serious attention every time. I have over 2300 hours total and nearly 500 hours in tailwheels, but what matters is the next hour and the next landing. thanks for the reminders, guys.
 
Thank you Chuck for sharing this. I'm a newby student with a new RV 12 SLSA and fear this exactly... 10 knot?!? Thankyou for the ref. to Vans articles. ...will read again. I just don't understand....you are farmoreexperienced....I'm getting pretty nervous about the same thing happening. Any suggestions welcome.

Glad to hear you and your wife are recovering.
Best,
Tim
 
If you touch down too hard and bounce and you can't put it down easy the second time touching, give it power and go around. Do not let the bouncing progress to the third bounce. Works every time.
 
bouncing

Could someone expand on the sequence of events that causes the bounce and the hard landing? Maybe the two are similar, maybe not but as a low time pilot and someday RV driver, I would like to know.
Is it too much speed at touch down? Is it too little causing a stall while still a few feet up?
I have flown lots of Cessnas and now Pipers and have dropped onto the runway a little embarrassed but never bounced. Thanks
 
wirejock said:
Could someone expand on the sequence of events that causes the bounce and the hard landing? Maybe the two are similar, maybe not but as a low time pilot and someday RV driver, I would like to know.
Is it too much speed at touch down? Is it too little causing a stall while still a few feet up?
I have flown lots of Cessnas and now Pipers and have dropped onto the runway a little embarrassed but never bounced. Thanks
Click to expand...

I would bet the OP's situation was more of a balloon caused by wind than the spring of the landing gear literally bouncing him back into the air that far. I've seen tricycle gear planes spring bounce slightly, but they've always been a matter of inches. Tailwheel airplanes bounce for different reasons due to location of the gear, so there are lot of factors. Bad bounces or balloons are often caused by wind gusts. I remember once in the RV-4 I was smoothly rolling out 3-point after touchdown and the next thing I knew I was 3 ft back in the air. It was a windy day with a big gust spread, and a fair amount of mechanical turbulence at this airport. Immediate full power and go around. Sometimes a gust can drop you back down as fast as it caused you to bounce/balloon in the first place. Never pitch the nose over trying to "catch" a bounce or balloon, just hold your touchdown attitude and add full power. Timeliness of power is the most important thing. RVs are wonderful airplanes for getting out of a bounce. There are few issues in the early part of a landing that full power will not fix.
 
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wirejock said:
Could someone expand on the sequence of events that causes the bounce and the hard landing? Maybe the two are similar, maybe not but as a low time pilot and someday RV driver, I would like to know.
Is it too much speed at touch down? Is it too little causing a stall while still a few feet up?
I have flown lots of Cessnas and now Pipers and have dropped onto the runway a little embarrassed but never bounced. Thanks
Click to expand...

I believe bouncing back in the air that is more as a result of ballooning or floating is not an issue and easily controlled back to the ground, we only need to keep flying it and makes sure to touch down with the mains keeping the nose wheel up till you can not any more. The kind of bounding that could get us into trouble is when we drop from the air, stall well above ground, which typically results of the mains hitting first and then the nose wheel and this may get repeated as we have got behind and there just for the ride.

I had this happened to me once and I still don?t know what caused it as I was not even close to the stall speed, dropped rather hard for about 3 feet or so and after the mains, the nose hit the ground rather hard and we bounced back in the air. Luckily right before bouncing back to the ground the second time I was at full power and did a go-around. I was worried that my landing gear may had been damaged but a careful second landing went uneventful and a full inspection showed no sign of damage. I believe the go-around saved us from a real bad landing that time.
 
Larry,
I was hoping someone would beat me to this with the perfect textbook answer.
I looked online for one but didn't come up with what I thought was a great answer. Here is one from Rod Machado that gets close.

Porpoising can occur if a pilot attempts to force the airplane onto the runway at a higher than normal speed. This allows the nose-gear to contact the runway slightly before the main gear does. It can also occur if a pilot lands hard on the main gear, resulting in the airplane pitching forward onto the nose gear. Either way, the airplane responds by pitching up and becoming airborne. The pilot typically reacts by applying too much forward elevator pressure, resulting in the nose gear, once again, making hard contact with the runway. The cycle repeats itself, often with more devastating oscillations, sometimes resulting in a damaged nose gear.

When the plane bounces back up, it increases the angle of attach and gets the plane flying again but without enough speed to stay flying. If bad enough it gets progressively worse until it bends the front gear or firewall.
This is why we are all taught to do a go-around with a bounce. Power out is the best remidy.
 
hope you get better, i had same type of approach, my secret was less flaps, more airspeed (i was prepared to use more runway if needed) and then touch down and keep flying until you're at a dead stop

this was in a tailwheel of course, but it was near the same airport, gusty winds, and 20G36 I believe at a direct 90deg crosswind, i was proud of that landing

the takeoff 30mins later was intense though
 
Just like the old motocross axiom: "...when in doubt, gas it..."; few landing issues aren't immediately improved with rapid application of maximum power.

I have plenty of practice trying to "save" a bounce and have ultimately learned that a good bounce is an automatic go around.
 
Toobuilder said:
...I have plenty of practice trying to "save" a bounce and have ultimately learned that a good bounce is an automatic go around.
Click to expand...
So true!

My mentor once told me, "The sign of a good pilot is not smooth landings but what they do when they botch one." - Eddie DelRosso
 
A Heartfelt Thank You

.... I, as many others here would like to say thank you for this courageous sharing of information. We are glad to see you are repairing your plane and I would like to offer you one of our "Nose Jobs" complete with our fairing at no cost as a thank you for helping others. Should you want to take advantage of our offer just give us a call or an e-mail. We at Anti-Splat-Aero wish you and your wife a speedy and complete recovery. Allan...:D
 
Carl J. Niedermeyer said:
This video illustrates this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMmHYWjEmkY
Click to expand...

Carl
I watched it over and over. Am I correct, it looked like too much airspeed over the numbers combined with incorrect correction on the elevator. It almost looks like the pilot flew it down when it was not ready to stop flying. I heard the engine still running much higher than idle but not high enough to execute a go around.
Sorry to the folks here. I'm not trying to hijack the thread or imply anything related to the Ops original post. I'm just trying to learn. I just flew a Warrior a few hours recently and it seemed very forgiving on landing in some pretty windy conditions so the video was kinda scary to me.
When I landed the bird, it was about 70k and slowing as the wheels touched and the yoke was working back to settle her down. I keep flying her till she stops.
 
PerfTech said:
We are glad to see you are repairing your plane and I would like to offer you one of our "Nose Jobs" complete with our fairing at no cost as a thank you for helping others. Should you want to take advantage of our offer just give us a call or an e-mail. We at Anti-Splat-Aero wish you and your wife a speedy and complete recovery. Allan...:D
Click to expand...

Thank you Allan, that is a very generous offer and I appreciate it very much. A friend in WI has this on his 7A and when he learned that mine would be repaired soon, he was urging me to put it on my plane also.

I'll contact you off line...I wanted to send you a few pictures and ask some questions.

Thanks again.
 
Fly it all the way

As an instructor I noticed a habit that students and low (and not so low) time pilots had. What I see is that once the mains touch down, the pilot is so thankful to be on the ground that they completely release the elevator control.

Yes, it reminded me of ME when I was learning. "How come I'm zig-zagging back and forth?" I says to myself... wheelbarrowing is what it's called.

Once the mains touch down, hold what you've got for back pressure. Once the airplane begins to slow down, increase that pressure until you are slow enough to turn off the runway. The added benefit is that you will slow down faster with all the aerodynamic drag from a higher AOA and the elevator up in the air. If you begin to brake it will reduce force on the nosewheel.

Mains are beefy, but most nose wheel structures are not. Treat them as if eggs will break if you let the nose down too soon. It is something you must train yourself to do automatically.

I cannot say that this could have been, or even might have been the case with Chuck, the OP. The video in an earlier post was great. If that pilot had held pressure, he might not have bounced the second time, and after the second one, it was definitely time to go around.

The last time this happened to me (porpoising) was in a Seneca. It porpoised, I added power, settled it down, it did it again, I went around. With paying passengers in the back it was embarrassing, but not as embarrassing as it could have been.

Thanks for sharing Chuck.

Don
 
Thanks for posting this, Chuck. My best wishes for your recovery and that of your wife. I am a physical therapist, and if you have any questions or concerns about your rehab that I might be able to help with, please don't hesitate to ask.
 
cfiidon said:
The last time this happened to me (porpoising) was in a Seneca. It porpoised, I added power, settled it down, it did it again, I went around. With paying passengers in the back it was embarrassing, but not as embarrassing as it could have been.
Click to expand...

Circa 1983, I was assigned to deliver a new Dakota to Florida. The local dealer, the customer, his family, and the pilot who was to deliver me to ORL for the big bird home....all were standing along the runway when I arrived nosewheel-first, and porpoised into a (thankfully decreasing) basketball dribble. As you say, not as embarrassing as it could have been, but pretty close.

That which does not kill us makes us....better ;)
 
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