What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Glass cockpit without backup

R

RV10POLAND

Member
I'm really surprised that so many RV builders go glass without any backup instrumentation:confused: What are they going to do if electricity fails? All this stuff is great but as you know there are some incidents of misstated, inaccurate readings of altitiude, airspeed or unsafe attitude information. Even while flying under VMC you don't have airspeed and altitiude readings. I don't want to criticize nobody but we all are here to help each other. I'm sure that adding three analog instruments is not a big deal and can save your life.:)

Regards

Maciek
 
Last edited:
Backups are extremely important, as you say Maciek, but they don't necessarily have to be analog instruments. They can be additional glass instruments, an independent autopilot, etc. Your point about loss of electrical is true - so provide independent power sources. By independent, I mean that they can not be taken down by a single failure in the other system (they need to be isolatable, and have their own power source. The design goal is redundant function - if you can provide that, it really doesn't matter how. Almost everyone I know that is actively flying their RV IFR has a backup scheme of some kind - or at least I hope they do!

Paul
 
My backups...

I am building a day/night/X-C VFR -7A with a Dynon EFIS, 2 axis Auto Pilot driven by a Handheld GPS and no "back up instruments". I will have a single battery and dual alternators so the juice should continue to flow at all times.

Following 'Lectric Bob's philosophy that "no single failure should cause me to break a sweat" I'm keeping it simple. My thought process is: "What will I do when the _____ quits working?"

-If the Dynon bites the dust: Hand held GPS and 2 axis auto pilot will keep the wings level, allow accurate navigation and give altitude information.

-If A/P quits: Hand fly using the Dynon and GPS

-If GPS quits: Still have the Dynon. The A/P will independently fly a heading.

-As for back up airspeed, I have no PIC time in RVs but in my other flying I don't generally spend a lot of time looking at the ASI. I think I should be able to maintain a safe airspeed by sight picture, sound and feel (seat of the pants). Granted this may not be as simple in an RV as it is in a -182 but no one should crash because a bug flew up the pitot tube.

-This is taking things a step farther than I think is necessary but: If multiple instruments quit I'm still okay since whatever is left will give me at least heading info so I can still navigate and (most of the time) I can look outside and see that I'm not going to hit the ground. You can "What-if" this stuff to the N'th degree but I'm comfortable with stopping here. If you really want to cover your bases get a $100 el cheap-o gps and carry some fresh AA batteries with you.

Just my thoughts,

Jim McChesney
Tucson, AZ
-7A Finishing Kit
 
Depends

rvtach said:
-. I think I should be able to maintain a safe airspeed by sight picture, sound and feel (seat of the pants). Granted this may not be as simple in an RV as it is in a -182 but no one should crash because a bug flew up the pitot tube.

-This is taking things a step farther than I think is necessary but: If multiple instruments quit I'm still okay since whatever is left will give me at least heading info so I can still navigate and (most of the time) I can look outside and see that I'm not going to hit the ground. You can "What-if" this stuff to the N'th degree but I'm comfortable with stopping here. If you really want to cover your bases get a $100 el cheap-o gps and carry some fresh AA batteries with you.

Just my thoughts,

Jim McChesney
Tucson, AZ
-7A Finishing Kit
Click to expand...

Jim,
Believe me, you can fly any RV without airspeed indications if you use the visual cues you know so well....I've done it quite few times either because I forgot the pitot cover or a mud dauber camped there. Besides I have a 496 with GS which is usually close enough.

Maciek,
No, I wouldn't fly hard IMC with no backup but I don't do that. My 496 has its own battery backup and shows altitude, heading, groundspeed, bearing to any airport and track....enough backup for me. Depends on what you're going to do with your airplane.

Regards,
 
I carry my backup VFR altimeter and two airspeed indicators with me all the time. Most people call the altimeter "eyes" and the airspeed indicators "ears". The airspeed indicators work best when coupled with the altimeter :).
 
The whole airplane losing power is why we at Dynon designed in an internal, self managed backup battery. Any Dynon EFIS can be equipped with this and it gives you hours of operation after your master power fails. Other EFIS manufacturers have done the same or support an external battery. In reality, it's easy to make the electricity needed to run an EFIS one of the most redundant, reliable things in your airplane.

That being said, we always recommend the builder equip with backups that are appropriate for their needs. You lose a lot if info if you lose any EFIS system, but it's easy to back all of that up by putting a second EFIS in.
 
So someday you are flying on top. How are you going to come down if you can't see the ground safely if you have no backups. If you can come down thru the cloud layer without an airspeed and T&B you're a better pilot than most.
 
The initial question did not mention IFR

If its a VFR airplane you look out the window...Best instrument there is.

Autopilots are so cheap these days that a VFR X country machines are being fitted with them all the time and if you go IFR they make a perfect back up to whatever artificial horizon instrument you are using, especially the Trutrak line as these can have the turn coordinator display.

All electric airplanes can be designed to have redundant systems.

Frank
 
The big screen in front doesn't need power . . .

frankh said:
If its a VFR airplane you look out the window...Best instrument there is.
. . .
Frank
Click to expand...
I agree. My student pilots regularly fly with the IP totally covered, and must be able to do consistent takeoffs and landings in that configuration before solo. I tell them that the Wright brothers didn't have all this stuff, and they flew just fine :rolleyes:
 
Norman CYYJ said:
So someday you are flying on top. How are you going to come down if you can't see the ground safely if you have no backups. If you can come down thru the cloud layer without an airspeed and T&B you're a better pilot than most.
Click to expand...
If I'm every flying VFR on top, and have a need to get down immediately, and have no hole to go through, and have an electrical failure of both the A/C power and backup battery, I guess I just won't buy a lottery ticket that day.
 
VFR-on-top vs. VFR-over-the-top

keen9a said:
If I'm every flying VFR on top, and have a need to get down immediately, and have no hole to go through, and have an electrical failure of both the A/C power and backup battery, I guess I just won't buy a lottery ticket that day.
Click to expand...
I know this will take the thread even further off and split some hairs but; What you are describing is (in the US) VFR-over-the-top. VFR-on-top is aircraft on an IFR clearance operating in VMC at VFR altitudes. So if you are VFR-on-top, you don't need to look for a hole as the assumption is that you have a clearance. Some tend to frown on VFR-over-the-top.
 
Glass backup

Here is a shot of my current panel going in my RV-9A. This has several redundant systems. Even the TruTrak auto pilot has a redundant purpose as it is coupled to both the Chelton EFIS and the Garmin 430. Of course the TruTrak auto pilot has an on/off button and I wired this thru the panel to a switch breaker and then I have an on/on switch breaker to identify it to use either the Chelton (up position) or the Garmin 430 (in the down position). This panel is all electric and uses two independant GPS signal antennas. Two radios, which the King KY96 is coupled to the Chelton and the Garmin 430 is then independent. We are beginning to wire this currently.

img0614iz8.jpg


Pat Garboden
Ozark, MO
RV-9A N942PT (reserved) tip up w/O-320
 
If you accidentally leave the pitot tube cover on the plane when you take off (and it doesn't depar the plane) it probably won't matter how many ASI's you have!

It's not impossible - even on a relatively short grass strip - to land an RV-6 with no ASI (I'm talking VFR of course)....don't ask me how I know!

It doesn't necessarily have to be a pitot tube cover, could be a big bug (MN mosquito), junk from the runway, etc.... There is a fellow on this list that had a pitot failure in rain (IFR) on his way to SnF in his RV-10 this year. Luckily the AHRS in his EFIS wasn't dependent on Pitot/Static for altitude and he had backup attitude info. It's something else to keep in mind when deciding what to use as primary flight EFIS's for IFR flight in your bird - and hence the decision for the appropriate backup! Some EFIS's go completely wonky when you remove the pitot....not somethin you'd want in the clouds with no alternative backups!

Anyway....my opinion....if you can't land your RV on a VFR day without an ASI, then....well....

I'll stop bantering before I say something stupid or get someone upset or make myself look like a bigger idiot than I already have! :)

Cheers,
Stein

PS, If you think it'll never happen to you - it might! Heck, I never thought I'd put parts of my body anywhere near a running prop either...... ;)
 
No backup required

I fly with just a Dynon sport pack without the internal backup batteries. The only other instrumentation is a Garmin 295. If all that failed I guess I would just look out the window and fly the airplane. I fly VFR only and have every confidence that I can fly just fine without any instruments. But then I'm a risk taker; I flew behind a VW with a single distributor electronic ignition. Remember, anything you put in the airplane (like backup instruments, second alternator or battery) costs money, reduces useful load, takes additional building time, and will require maintenance. Keep it light and simple. Use the money you save to buy gas and fly more.
Ron Voss
RV6 N642R 50 hours
angle valve O-320, Catto 3 blade
 
Autopilots are so cheap these days that a VFR X country machines are being fitted with them all the time and if you go IFR they make a perfect back up to whatever artificial horizon instrument you are using, especially the Trutrak line as these can have the turn coordinator display.
Click to expand...

True. Also, both Navaid and Trio autopilots have a turn coordinator display.
 
Norman CYYJ said:
So someday you are flying on top. How are you going to come down if you can't see the ground safely if you have no backups. If you can come down thru the cloud layer without an airspeed and T&B you're a better pilot than most.
Click to expand...
First off, VFR pilot and/or plane should never get stuck on top.

Should that happen you have two choices, with or without instruments.

Choice one, spin it down through the clouds. ;)

Choice two and my favorite, trim it for straight and level hands off flight. Pull the power back until you start to descend and don't touch a thing, even if you hit a bump. Remember, it is trimmed, it will come out the bottom going straight.

These two options assume you know what is below and where the bottoms are. If not, good luck.

That said, my day/night VFR -9 is equipped with a traditional AS and altimeter to complement the Dynon D100 EFIS and Garmin 496, both with battery backups. What I bought but did not install was wet compass.

IMHO, those of you who think an airplane will fall out of the sky if the radio dies should spend a day flying a J-3 Cub from the back seat with the instructor in the front seat holding his left hand over the airspeed for the entire flight (all the flights) like mine did. That will teach what you really need to fly an airplane.
 
RV10POLAND said:
What are they going to do if electricity fails?
Click to expand...

I'm going to look out the window (I'm a VFR guy) and listen to the engine.:D Seriously, if the electrical fails, I'll look down at the chart in my lap to take care of the navigation. Then I'll use my ears and eyes for airspeed... kind of the same thing my CFI taught me years ago... to get to know the sound of the wind and the sound of the engine in a plane in each configuration... lock your brain in on what it looks like at x knots... and x feet AGL etc.

Not all backup instruments are in the panel.:D
 
N941WR said:
...Choice two and my favorite, trim it for straight and level hands off flight. Pull the power back until you start to descend and don't touch a thing, even if you hit a bump. Remember, it is trimmed, it will come out the bottom going straight...
Click to expand...
I presume you have tried this in your airplane in nice bumpy air, or you wouldn't say it. I have tried it in my RV-6 and I know for sure that it will not work for any reasonable length of time.
 
Curious. When people talk backups, are people thinking "backup until I get to my destination?" Or are they talking "backup until I get down on the ground right now?"
 
w1curtis said:
I know this will take the thread even further off and split some hairs but; What you are describing is (in the US) VFR-over-the-top. VFR-on-top is aircraft on an IFR clearance operating in VMC at VFR altitudes. So if you are VFR-on-top, you don't need to look for a hole as the assumption is that you have a clearance. Some tend to frown on VFR-over-the-top.
Click to expand...
OK, I copied the phraseology of the post I was replying to. I'm pretty sure everyone can figure out that I meant flying VFR over the top of a cloud layer since I was talking about backups on a VFR airplane. If we're going to split hairs, "VFR on top" is not the same as "VFR-on-top" either.

The simple point is that if you're flying VFR you should be able to land the airplane with only your eyes and ears.
 
Piper J3 Cub with no electrical system

RV10POLAND said:
I'm really surprised that so many RV builders go glass without any backup instrumentation:confused: What are they going to do if electricity fails? All this stuff is great but as you know there are some incidents of misstated, inaccurate readings of altitude, airspeed or unsafe attitude information. Even while flying under VMC you don't have airspeed and altitude readings. I don't want to criticize nobody but we all are here to help each other. I'm sure that adding three analog instruments is not a big deal and can save your life.:)

Regards Maciek
Click to expand...
Have you ever flown a Piper Cub with no electrical system? All the flight/power instruments you have: wet compass, airspeed, altitude and RPM. Scary! :rolleyes:

If your EFIS goes dark, a hand-held GPS w/ internal batteries is GOOD ENOUGH to give you "APPROX" altitude and ground speed (which is relative to airspeed). Even with out GPS you should be able to fly the plane in VFR conditions.

As a pilot you should be able to judge approx altitude and airspeed by seat-O-pants. How big are the houses? Big houses low, small houses high. The sound of the engine, wind slipstream and pitch attitude as you see out the windscreen and nose tells you how fast you are gooing. You can get on the ground if you don't panic.

I agree having your EFIS and Engine monitor Glass on separate systems is a good idea. That way you don't lose flight and engine instruments at the same time. Total electrical system failure (aka battery) is rare. If you have power (rpm/map) and pitch attitude (looking out windscreen) you know your approx airspeed or should.

"Failure is not an option." How many EFIS have just failed? Have you heard of any? I am sure it has happened and can happen but how likely? How likely is that single crankshaft or single prop going to fail?


I have a Dynon EFIS D10, GRT EIS4000 and THAT IS IT! Well that is it besides radio, transponder and handheld/portable GPS. With this panel I have the capability of a B757 in many ways. So what if it all goes dark. The engine runs (Mags, mechanical fuel pump/carb) and I can see, VFR, so I'll land.

As long as you know the limitations, I suggest an all glass no backup set-up is fine for VFR. No back-up for IFR, not a good idea.

There is definitely a new breed of pilots coming out of flight schools who have only seen a Garmin G1000 EFIS cockpit. They would not know what to do with steam gages. A J3 panel would give them a cold sweat. At least for IFR and training pilots should fly by back-up only, which means steam or analog gauges.

cf-lg.jpg
300px-Piper_Cub_cockpit.jpg
 
Last edited:
Internal backup here

Hi.

My RV-7 is beeing built as a VFR acro/X-C plane.

For backup my AFS EFIS 3500 and Garmin 296 has internal backup batteries.

Even if the 3500 schould quit, the 296 can display the "six pack" of basic instruments.

Trying to build KISS-way, I'm not putting in any steamgages. I figure the 3500 and 296 is a good enough backup.

I'm also planning to bring along a handheld VHF-radio with ILS, just in case...

Regards Alf Olav Frog / Norway
RV-7 finishing/wiring
 
Last edited:
A smart guy!

One of the copilots I flew with told me how he saved his bacon one day, making up his own backup instruments:

He was flying IFR, IMC at night when all of a sudden ALL of the electric instruments quit and the whole cockpit went completely dark. The engine kept on going but he had a total elec failure.

NOT fun at all...

This guy was a quick thinker and quickly he grabbed his cokebottle and a flashlight.
He placed the cokebottle on top of the glareshield and lit it up with his flashlight. Then he'd made himself a artificial horizon.

He then kept and eye on the mag compass and made sure he was not turning.

Then he added power and started a slow straight ahead climb until he became VFR on top.

Then he proceeded on top until he found a hole ahead (he remembered from his wx-briefing where to find the best wx)

Then he dropped down in the hole and landed safely at the nearest airport, keeping a VERY good lookout ofcourse...

That's what I'd call a smart guy!


Regards Alf Olav Frog / Norway
 
We have all watched the video of Bob Hoover pour himself a glass of ice tea while flying. I wonder if the glass of ice tea would serve as a AH in Bob's airplane.
 
n5lp said:
I presume you have tried this in your airplane in nice bumpy air, or you wouldn't say it. I have tried it in my RV-6 and I know for sure that it will not work for any reasonable length of time.
Click to expand...
Larry,

That is a good question. I have done it in my old 65 hp T-craft (don't ask) and I will go out on a limb and say the -9 will (should) do it. The -9 is much more stable than the -6 because of it's longer wing, greater dihedral, and larger HS & VS.

ao.frog said:
This guy was a quick thinker and quickly he grabbed his cokebottle and a flashlight.
He placed the cokebottle on top of the glareshield and lit it up with his flashlight. Then he'd made himself a artificial horizon.
Click to expand...
Alf,

I'm not sure I would trust this. The coke will stay flat if you remain in coordinated flight, even if you are upside down. However, it might help you relax and fly the compass.
 
Last edited:
Not really suitable

Alex Caldwell said:
There is a special kind of compass called a "Bohli compass" that has a
needle on gimbals. I don't completely understand it, and have never used
one, but some glider pilots have used them for blind flying in clouds without
any electrical system, source of suction or other attitude instruments. The basic idea
is that the gimbals allow the compass needle to always align with the magnetic
lines of force, which are inclined, so it can give you information about the
attitude of the aircraft in relation to the earth's horizon. I think it also takes
out the other compass errors such as "northerly lag", "southerly lead" and
the acceleration errors, I think. You have to know the inclination of the magnetic
lines of force for your specific area of the earth, and I think you'd have to
do a lot of practice with it if you were really going to use it as a back up.

It's also real expensive. You can read more at this link:

http://www.bohli-magnete.ch/pdf/ba_kompi_e4.pdf
Click to expand...

Alex, a Bohli is not really very suitable as an AI. It uses a small magnetised ball to show heading, suspended on a thin rod. The ball/rod must be aligned perpendicular to the local magnetic field (IIRC) - basically parallel with the horizon, so you have to look in the top of the 'compass' to see which way you are headed. To allow the pilot to see the compass card is written backwards and a mirror is provided to view it. The whole thing must be adjusted (with a large knob that sticks out the front of the panel) to remain parallel with the horizon as you bank. To use it as an AI you must adjust the bank of the instrument until the ball reads properly - not a trivial task requiring much practice. I never got on with the one I had as a compass, let alone an AI, then GPS came along so it got ripped out. They were banned at international soaring comps to stop pilots cloud flying, so it can be done if you're very good.
Pete
 
IFR is a total different thing of course, but, although I am a VFR pilot, I have been caught up by bad weather, late arrival (after dark) and the likes, in our clubs C152?s and 172?s. I know, I know, the rules say that you should plan your flight so that this will never happen, but hey,?. nobody is prefect and sometimes so is my planning.

Although we are not allowed anything else than ?day-VFR? in experimentals, around here, I do have the full lighting job and plan to have backups for night flight and IFR emergencies.

After getting a big bullocking from our club?s CEO, for landing after dark one day, I started my night-VFR training a couple of days later (takes 5 hours in Belgium), so I could always land at a nearby medium-large airport safely, in case I would get myself into this situation again. Also I started taking on some more ?under the hood lessons? to be able to fly on instruments, because I had found myself cleared through controlled airspace, but the clouds I was flying through were so thick, I could not see the tip of the wings! After 5 minutes everything was clear again, but it made me realize that without being able to fly on instruments I would not have been able to survive such a flight! Also it made me realize that sometimes the weather can be very tricky. You think (or it has been predicted) that it will get better, so you continue, flying on instruments, but visibility is to bad for a VFR landing at your destination. At least if you have the instruments, you can land at a nearby airfield with GS-capabilities and get to the ground safe. Several club members told me: If you do that, you will lose your license and you will never fly again, bla, bla, bla! But for all I care, what use is my license when I am dead? So I would rather land illegally than not land at all!

I am installing a Dynon EFIS with remote compass, but also a Garmin SL30 with VOR and GS, in the unlikely case I have to land IFR one day. Our regulations call for at least a TSO compass, airspeed- and altitude gauge. So that is back-up already. I also have an AV-Map AKP-IV and a Trutrak Pilot II Autopilot, so in the worst case scenario of: IFR weather and a bug in the pitot and a malfunction of the back ?up altitude gauge and a malfunction of the SL30 (no NAV and no Com), I have ground speed and altitude from the GPS, attitude from the Trutrak and communication through my cell-phone. Actually I find it strange that nobody considers their cell-phone (I carry it with me all the time) as a back-up for radio transmission. I bet ?911? will connect you with the tower of your choice in a minute, when you tell them you have no other means of communication, to get your plane down on the ground!

Now, there is many of these scenarios that you could imagine, but how often will it be an and, and, and situation, like I describe? I guess you win the lottery before that and you should have done something well before it gets to that situation anyway.

Just my thoughts and the way I am laying out my instruments, to give me a safe feeling in any situation.
 
ao.frog said:
One of the copilots I flew with told me how he saved his bacon one day, making up his own backup instruments:

He was flying IFR, IMC at night when all of a sudden ALL of the electric instruments quit and the whole cockpit went completely dark. The engine kept on going but he had a total elec failure.

NOT fun at all...

This guy was a quick thinker and quickly he grabbed his cokebottle and a flashlight.
He placed the cokebottle on top of the glareshield and lit it up with his flashlight. Then he'd made himself a artificial horizon.

He then kept and eye on the mag compass and made sure he was not turning.

Then he added power and started a slow straight ahead climb until he became VFR on top.

Then he proceeded on top until he found a hole ahead (he remembered from his wx-briefing where to find the best wx)

Then he dropped down in the hole and landed safely at the nearest airport, keeping a VERY good lookout ofcourse...

That's what I'd call a smart guy!


Regards Alf Olav Frog / Norway
Click to expand...
I assume this is one of those hangar tales, that with a little introspection you can see is most likely a tall tale.

Firstly if a bottle of liquid could suffice as a backup attitude instrument, AI would not be so costly or complicated. Secondly, most gyros on small planes are vacuum powered, or else the FAA requires a totally separate power source for them and is usually not affected by a power failure of one system. If the gyros are vacuum powered, then all he needed was a flashlight to see the vacuum powered gyros. If they were also electrically powered, they probably have their own lighting.

European certification requirements are usually more stringent that the US so this story is a little suspect to me. What type of aircraft was it?
 
Pilottonny said:
I have ground speed and altitude from the GPS, attitude from the Trutrak and communication through my cell-phone. Actually I find it strange that nobody considers their cell-phone (I carry it with me all the time) as a back-up for radio transmission. I bet ?911? will connect you with the tower of your choice in a minute, when you tell them you have no other means of communication, to get your plane down on the ground!
Click to expand...

I found the american cell phone network only works if you can stay near the highway (lots of cell towers), at or below 1500 agl, and below 100kts.

At normal RV speeds the cell towers can't keep up.
 
Tall tails

w1curtis said:
I assume this is one of those hangar tales, that with a little introspection you can see is most likely a tall tale.
Click to expand...
Yep think so.

Personally I bring my cat "fluffy" with me for a back up instrument IFR. If I lose all my instruments IMC, I put the cat on the seat next to me. Cats have perfect balance right. If the cat is leaning one way or the other I know which way I'm banking. If the cat is standing on the roof I'm in trouble. :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
ao.frog said:
One of the copilots I flew with told me how he saved his bacon one day, making up his own backup instruments:

He was flying IFR, IMC at night when all of a sudden ALL of the electric instruments quit and the whole cockpit went completely dark. The engine kept on going but he had a total elec failure.

NOT fun at all...

This guy was a quick thinker and quickly he grabbed his cokebottle and a flashlight.
He placed the cokebottle on top of the glareshield and lit it up with his flashlight. Then he'd made himself a artificial horizon.

He then kept and eye on the mag compass and made sure he was not turning.

Then he added power and started a slow straight ahead climb until he became VFR on top.

Then he proceeded on top until he found a hole ahead (he remembered from his wx-briefing where to find the best wx)

Then he dropped down in the hole and landed safely at the nearest airport, keeping a VERY good lookout ofcourse...

That's what I'd call a smart guy!


Regards Alf Olav Frog / Norway
Click to expand...

I haven't posted in a while but in the interest of safety I must say....THIS IS TOTAL BS. A coke bottle, or any other kind of "AI" of this type is completely unusable for IFR (or any other) kind of flight. The liquid will be perfectly LEVEL if you're in coordinated flight. If you're uncoordinated, it will still tell you NOTHING about you're actual flight attitude. You get the IDENTICAL information from the ball in your turn coordinator.

Bottom line: Given the light weight and relative cheapness of some instrumentation these days, if there is a particular instrument you think will KILL YOU if it fails, it's a bit nutty to fly without a backup.....just my opinion.

Also just my opinion: If you're in VFR conditions, and you seriously think you're in mortal danger flying with absolutely no instrumentation, backup instruments is NOT the solution.

My totally non-politically correct, mostly worthless, yet mildly entertaining, statement of the month....
 
RV10POLAND said:
I'm really surprised that so many RV builders go glass without any backup instrumentation:confused: What are they going to do if electricity fails? All this stuff is great but as you know there are some incidents of misstated, inaccurate readings of altitiude, airspeed or unsafe attitude information. Even while flying under VMC you don't have airspeed and altitiude readings. I don't want to criticize nobody but we all are here to help each other. I'm sure that adding three analog instruments is not a big deal and can save your life.:)

Regards

Maciek
Click to expand...
The airplane I make my living in has no mechanical gages except for the standby compass. It also has four generators, two batteries, and more busses than I can remember. All electric airplanes are safe if you build in enough redundancy. However I feel strongly that you should have three sources of attitude info in the clouds. Nothing is more disorienting than an AHRS that is in a slow drift. More than one airliner has hit the ground because of this. I would like to have two EFIS screens and a turn coordinator/AP myself. Day VMC you don't need much, night IMC is a different world.
 
Pilottonny said:
Actually I find it strange that nobody considers their cell-phone (I carry it with me all the time) as a back-up for radio transmission. I bet ?911? will connect you with the tower of your choice in a minute, when you tell them you have no other means of communication, to get your plane down on the ground!
Click to expand...

Not something I would advise (based on my local experience and knowledge - YMMV). While they have direct pass-through's to their allied agencies... Control towers aren't one of those connections. You'd probably end up waiting a LONG time while they try to figure out who to call and what the number was. (All the while cell-hopping and risking dropped calls) Then, you'd more then likely be in a 3-way conversation with the non-aviator dispatcher playing the middle man in that telephone conversation. If anyone knows differently... please correct me.
DJ
 
the_other_dougreeves said:
Originally Posted by gmcjetpilot
Yep think so.

Personally I bring my cat "fluffy" with me for a back up instrument IFR.
Yes, and they always land on their feet ;)

TODR
Click to expand...

Now I thought that you were supposed to through the cat out the window and then follow it down.:D

Kent
 
I'm some considerable time from putting the instruments in my -10 but have a couple of thoughts:

- in the modern VANS aircraft, with all their space and payload capability, there is no excuse not to have some sort of back-up even for VFR. IFR, of course, is essential both for power and instrumentation.

- back-up can be electric, especially if you have dual power sources and/or back-up internal batteries. I fly the big Airbusses for a living and the latest versions are all-electric - no manual back-up for instruments or flight controls.

- loss of ASI due to pitot blockage should be no big deal. Produce a power/attitude table for various configurations and airspeeds. Static is another matter (for IFR, at least). Alternate cockpit source with a correction table seems sensible. GPS altitude can also get you down although will bear little relationship to pressure altitude.

- My provisional plan is to run twin Dynon 180s, both hooked up to pitot/static. (Not that much more expensive than a 100 + 120). Run one as EFIS and one as EMS then in the event that one fails, you can run the other in dual mode. For power, dual essential feeds and back-up internal battery. I'll probably also fit a 2 1/4 TruTrak ADI and a Stratomaster combined ASI/ALT - all essential data in 2 x 2 1/4 instruments. That way with a failure en-route, you are not grounded at your next stop as you still have a back-up. Now that's a LOT of redundancy for what on the face of it is simply an EFIS, EMS and 2 back-up instruments - and a nice clean panel.
 
Not Electric for Airspeed

Airpeed indicator should not be electric. If you lose engine power, you want to be able to shut off the electric and still have airspeed indication for your landing.
 
He's going to have dual, redundant EFIS units. The Dynon EFIS units have backup batteries so you can shut off your master power to the whole plane and still have the EFIS (and thus the ASI). So he'll have three ASI's in the plane, two of which don't use master power at all, or even three if he wires the Stratomaster with a backup. I think those guys will run on a 9V battery if I remember right.

That's pretty much a power-independent ASI (and attitude, and mag heading, and altimeter, and VSI, and...) ;)

I do like the idea of the goose and/or the cat. I think we may need to look into stuffing one into our products for that second level of redundancy. We need to figure out where to put the slot so you can feed them though. I think the cat might be cleaner in that regard.
 
Last edited:
Due to popular demand we are considering shipping every Odyssey with a half empty bottle of Coke. We have entered negotiations with the beverage company and will be putting through a request for a suitably revised TSO-C4c to the FAA.
Ground breaking stuff this ! (no pun intended).:D

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics

P.S. Don't take me too seriously this morning, it's Monday after a good weekend...
 
We're going with Pepsi. In a blind flight test, 78% of pilots preferred Pepsi as an attitude indicator over Coke. ;)
 
Have you guys looked at the size of the RV3B instrument panel, now tell me about all this anolog back up. Dynon with battery back up is more than sufficent for day VFR.. RB
 
dynonsupport said:
We're going with Pepsi. In a blind flight test, 78% of pilots preferred Pepsi as an attitude indicator over Coke. ;)
Click to expand...

Pepsi is not available in this country. Mercyfully as some tell me.;)
But we got Mc Donalds all over the place now. Unfortunately as some tell me.:(

100% domination by Coke. So we'll have to go with Coke...

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics
 
Rainier Lamers said:
Due to popular demand we are considering shipping every Odyssey with a half empty bottle of Coke. We have entered negotiations with the beverage company and will be putting through a request for a suitably revised TSO-C4c to the FAA.
Ground breaking stuff this ! (no pun intended).:D

Rainier
CEO MGL Avionics

P.S. Don't take me too seriously this morning, it's Monday after a good weekend...
Click to expand...

Any chance I could get Pepsi instead of coke???
 
Hmm, we're going to have to do some research into how to get heading out of the soda bottle. I think our first release may just be an "ARS" instead of an "AHRS".

Maybe generation 2 Pepsi bottle will come with a little floating bit of iron.
 
dynonsupport said:
Hmm, we're going to have to do some research into how to get heading out of the soda bottle. I think our first release may just be an "ARS" instead of an "AHRS".

Maybe generation 2 Pepsi bottle will come with a little floating bit of iron.
Click to expand...

I thinking that Bud Light might work better for an Attitude Reference System.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top