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Somebody check my thinking please

T

Timbeck2

Member
If you read my first post on this forum you'll find that I'm one of many who started their PPL then life got in the way, etc.etc.

Anyway, I'm about to start flying again at a cost of $135 per hour wet and $50 for the instructor. Slight conflict of interest or a huge bonus depending upon how you look at it, the instructor works for me at my day job.

I'm looking on Aero Trader and have found several Piper Cherokees for sale. I want a low wing. Here's my thinking:

I could buy a plane and (I assume...yeah I know what the alternate meaning for that is) the payments would be less than what I would pay a flight school for the 8-10 flights per month AND I'd be able to fly more often. I could make a deal with my instructor that he'd be able to use the plane every once in a while for his own purposes to pay him for his instruction outside the flight school for whom he works.

Variables I don't know the answers to and keep in mind, this is just preliminary thinking:

Financing an airplane - who to go through? Bought several cars and a couple of houses but never an airplane.
Hanger fees - in Tucson I've heard anywhere from $250 and up.
Insurance - total loss at who and how much it will cost for someone in my situation.
Annual and 100 hour inspections - no clue as to the cost and I know it depends upon the condition of whatever I buy.

In addition to the above, what else do I need to think about?

Lastly - and most surprisingly, the wife fully support this idea. Whodathunkit?

edit: afterthought - I will eventually build an RV-7A. I don't want to buy one straightaway as I want to be able to accomplish that goal on my own at a later date. I know that an older plane will drain the savings account I would have put aside for the RV...or not and I can eventually sell the plane to finish up the RV.
 
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After some bad experiences at a flying club and life getting in the way, I bought a Cherokee 140 and hired a flight instructor. That decision made getting my license so much easier and affordable. I highly recommend getting your own plane to learn on.
 
That's basically what I did. I bought a Cherokee 180 and flew for a little over three years. I got my IFR and my son got his PPL. I sold it so that I could afford purchasing the IO-540 for my RV. I was able to sell it for the cost of the 180 and upgrades. All I was out was the variable costs, like fuel, insurance, hangar, etc. Made for some less expensive flying.

The gotchas is the annual for an older Cherokee. They can run from $700 to several thousand a year.
 
It's kind of like flipping houses. If you buy low, sell high, it's great. Vice versa, not so great. You also bear the risk of unexpected major maintenance (like engine overhaul) or some expensive AD.
Many people report a positive experience going this route. Those who lose their shirts tend to keep quiet. So it can work, just remember you do take on some financial risk.
If you do go this route it's best to fly more often, say, at least 3 times a week or more, or else those fixed costs will eat you up.
Finally, examine your relationship with your employee carefully. You need a cfi who can say, "No, you are not yet ready to solo" without fear of losing his day job.
 
Bob,

I wouldn't put him in that situation in the first place. One of the incentives to kick out the instructor is the cost to keep him in the right seat along with the hourly cost of the plane which I'm paying the school. Besides, I don't sign his paycheck, Uncle Sam does.

The advice so far is good, keep it coming guys so I can make a decision before the wife changes her mind. :D
 
In my 37 years of flying, I've seen what you propose work several times. As a gross rule of thumb, maintenance cost per hour for a simple certificated airplane like a Cherokee or C-172 is about the same as for fuel, assuming it's in reasonable condition to start with. Add your fixed costs like insurance and hangar to that. When shopping for an airplane, don't be lured in by deals that look too good to be true, because they probably are. Buy the best airplane you can afford and you'll be ahead in the long run.
 
DonFromTX said:
After some bad experiences at a flying club and life getting in the way, I bought a Cherokee 140 and hired a flight instructor. That decision made getting my license so much easier and affordable. I highly recommend getting your own plane to learn on.
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i'll second this

after seeing how much confusion there is about proper leaning techniques and watching how renters try to save a buck or or two at the expense of engine health, no thanks, i'll stick to my own craft

i mean we're talking cutting the master while taxiing out to save a few hobbs, imagine what they're doing with the red knob in cruise, and you're the next guy to fly the plane
 
Not yet mentioned, but in my case a big issue, is not being able to get the plane when you want to rent it! That and getting an instructor all at a time my busy military schedule would allow was just not working. When you wait too long between lessons, you forget all you learned in the last one, and on and on it goes. Retired and with my own plane, it was a fun, fast trip to a PP license.
 
Excellent idea.

A few phone calls will get the information you need about prices, but a general idea might be that if you fly that plane 80 to 120 hours a year, the total cost will be roughly what local flight schools get for an airplane of similar power and complexity.

Things like hangar get paid monthly. Things like the annual ($700 to $1,500 a year, 2 or 3 times that the first time), taxes and insurance get paid annually.

I'd recommend that you choose an airplane that cruises at least 120 mph so that you'll want to actually go places in it once you've got that PPL.

Dave
 
bkthomps said:
i'll second this

i mean we're talking cutting the master while taxiing out to save a few hobbs,

ne
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Almost all rental aircraft have their Hobbs meters wired directly to the battery thru a hidden fuse, and activated via an oil pressure switch. Otherwise people would do most of their flying with the master off!
 
BillL said:
http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=125373

Posted 35 min before yours and . . . get thousands of builders.flyers to help on this site.

RV6 Built by Ken Krueger $45k
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Not trying to threadjack as I think it is still relevant to the OP as a summary of assumptions: comparing the idea of buying a completed RV to a manufactured Cessna/Piper/whatever, the prospective purchaser:

- could most likely buy a more modern aircraft for the same initial cost
- maybe save some $$$ on maintenance budget (again due to newer RV)
- be comfortable the RV was built by a homebuilder (not that this is a negative)
- would most likely pay higher insurance costs with the RV
- may work on plane to heart's content but must have annual condition inspection done by A&P.

Are these a fair summary of points? Please advise and correct as appropriate. Any other comparative points you would add for people considering whether to buy a completed RV over an older manufactured plane, please add them too
 
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exsterminator said:
- may NOT perform any repairs outside of maintenance, just like a manufactured plane, and so needs annual inspections by an A&P and neither would they be able to upgrade any of the airplane systems themselves (such as glass display over steam).
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Highlighted one is false. You may work on the plane to your heart's content. You do need to have an annual "condition inspection" done by an A&P (does not need to be an A&P-IA as with certified aircraft).
 
BobTurner said:
Highlighted one is false. You may work on the plane to your heart's content. You do need to have an annual "condition inspection" done by an A&P (does not need to be an A&P-IA as with certified aircraft).
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If the A&P then draws up a list of things to fix/repair, is the new owner of the plane able to perform that work but still need it signed off by the A&P?
 
I did this. I was tired of competing with a lot of students for planes (local community college has an ATC program and requires the students to get a PPL) so I ended up buying a used Warrior II. It is a great plane for what it is (after correcting a couple of avionics issues), and I plan to keep it through my RV-10 build.

Get a good pre-buy evaluation done. Make sure you ask good questions, especially about ADs, and electronics. In my case I ended up fighting a bad transponder for months, which limited my flying time until I got it fixed. That slowed down my progress toward my license more than anything.
 
exsterminator said:
If the A&P then draws up a list of things to fix/repair, is the new owner of the plane able to perform that work but still need it signed off by the A&P?
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An experimental amateur-built aircraft may be maintained, repaired, and even modified by anyone. Might not always be prudent, but it is legal.

An A&P or the original builder holding the repairman certificate for that aircraft is required to sign off the condition inspection. Everything else is "fair game".
 
Maybe I can offer another perspective. I've been building my RV for around 694 years now and since it is taking so long, last June I bought a really nice Piper Cherokee. You can click the link in my signature to see it.

The Cherokee I bought is a 1962 and in 2011 had a lot of work done to it. It was repainted, new interior, new windows, and a bunch of other stuff.

I bought the airplane and I am happy with the price I paid. HOWEVER...after flying it for a while, I became uncomfortable flying it with the original seatbelts with no shoulder harnesses. So I bought a $2,500 STC kit that included new seat belts and shoulder harnesses.

The previous owner re-painted the prop but did an amateur job with it. So I had it removed, stripped, and repainted. That was $300.

The reception in the radios was not great and the original antennas looked horrible. I had them replaced for around $500.

Mine still had the original fuel lines (forward of the firewall) and they looked pretty bad. I replaced those and got ripped off by AvanteGuarde Aviation in Pontiac, MI. 80% mark-up??

I also had all 8 spark plugs replaced at $50/ea. Spruce sells the same plug for $29. More 80% mark-up from AvanteGaurde.

I could go on, but you get the idea. Most of these things I didn't HAVE to have done, but will you be happy flying around, and OWNING, and airplane that is far less than perfect? Will those things bother you?

I've put an additional $6,500 into my Cherokee and I haven't even owned it a year yet.

I really like this airplane and plan on keeping it even when the RV is complete and flying in 2089, so the money invested is worth it to me.

My whole point here, is that you may find a really 'nice' Cherokee and buy it, but just be aware that it will probably still require some upgrades or improvements-all of which cost money :D
 
Timbeck2 said:
Good price and I'm sure a fine plane.
Maybe its the picture but....everything is on the "wrong" side. :confused:

"This isn't England is it Danny?" "No." "I didn't think so."
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You are learning - so - learn to fly in the right seat!

Oh - BTW, insurance is based on insured value. Period.
 
Current Cherokee Warrior driver here, building an RV-8A. Lots of Cherokee pilots on this thread!

If you buy carefully, meaning initially getting a good annual as your initial pre-purchase inspection so you really know exactly what you're getting into, it can be a good deal. Like others, I have put more into the airplane over the past 6 years in upgrades than I paid for it originally (I got it for a pretty darn good initial price).

If you're looking for a solid, simple, parts-available, relatively inexpensive, already-built airplane to train and get around in, the Cherokees are hard to beat and there are some good deals to be had. Glad to discuss my experiences on the phone if you like.

And (shameless group plug here since it applies) if you decide to buy a Cherokee type plane to tide you over, such as several of us have, pick it up it real quick and meet us in July for the Cherokees to Oshkosh formation mass arrival. It's a great crew of people, and a fun way to make the Ford Taurus of the Skies (which is how I refer to my Warrior) a bit more exciting to fly, hah. http://www.cherokees2osh.com/ and http://formationclinic.com

And, hey - it's Oshkosh, which is where everyone building a RV belongs each summer anyway!

greg
 
Also...

Financing an airplane - who to go through? Bought several cars and a couple of houses but never an airplane.
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Several option out there, a few banks do it, and always worth speaking with your local credit union. Some do , some don't. EAA's financing program I think uses NAFCO - https://www.airloans.com/ - and the...options and ideas if you seach for financing.

Hanger fees - in Tucson I've heard anywhere from $250 and up.
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Highly variable based on the local market. You'll have to ask around. Around here (Portland OR) you're looking at anywhere from around $200 to $500+ a month for a t-hangar depending on location, condition and demand.

Insurance - total loss at who and how much it will cost for someone in my situation.
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I assume "total loss" was an intentional insurance play on words. :) This is also quite variable and dependant on value of the aircraft, specific coverage purchased, pilot(s)/owner(s) flight experience and ratings, etc. It's *very* much worth shopping around for this. Nationair (now Gallagher Aviation) is an advertiser here and just a couple of days ago got me a much better deal for insurance on both my flying Cherokee and my -8A project, compared to what I was paying through my previous insurance company. Shanna's number at Gallagher is 877-577-8267 and she's really helpful. Changing policies for me just resulted in almost $700 a year savings for what is actually slightly better coverage.

Annual and 100 hour inspections - no clue as to the cost and I know it depends upon the condition of whatever I buy.
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Mine have ranged from around $800 on the low end to $4000-ish on the high end when bigger stuff needed to be addressed. Well, except for the one that included an engine overhaul - that was more like $20K all in. I knew it was coming three years after buying and built it into my purchase price. Still hurt though. Did we mention a thorough pre-buy inspection, in the form of an annual? Do that. If you're able to do owner-assisted annuals and handle some of the work under the supervision of your A&P you can save a few bucks (sometimes), plus learn about the spam can you're maintaining in the process. That's what I try to do.

In addition to the above, what else do I need to think about?
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Know your mission, choose accordingly, and consider the opportunity costs.
 
Good thread! Lots of useful information for another guy considering a similar path!

I have an RV-6A under construction (empennage complete, wings 85%, fuselage at the 'big canoe outta the jig' stage, engine shopping now.) but I have not flown for 20 years. I'm considering buying a modest aircraft ( Piper Tripacer?) to restore basic flying skills in advance of completing the RV6A. A Tripacer fits my basic flying mission, can handle a bit rougher strips...... and I really just want to get in the air again!!!

Thanks to all contributors in this thread!
 
Last year (about this time), when I checked financing (NAFCO) the rates were:

RV's - 15 yr loan @ 6.5%
150/172/Cherokee - 15 yr loan at 7%

Of course the rates are variable depending upon a lot of outside factors, but this may give you an idea.

My wife (CPA) built me a spreadsheet to handle the chores!

Bob
 
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Just about impossible to beat the advice in Post #8. I doubt you will find a better value that you could train in and be happy with as a keeper.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Financing an airplane - who to go through? Bought several cars and a couple of houses but never an airplane.
Hanger fees - in Tucson I've heard anywhere from $250 and up.
Insurance - total loss at who and how much it will cost for someone in my situation.
Annual and 100 hour inspections - no clue as to the cost and I know it depends upon the condition of whatever I buy.

In addition to the above, what else do I need to think about?

.
Click to expand...

As far as financing goes, I have had a good experience with U.S. Aircraft Finance. Contact Dave Savoie at [email protected]
http://www.usaircraftfinance.com/

For insurance as a student pilot in my own aircraft I was able to get good coverage at a decent rate (as I recall it was less than $900 a year).
 
I financed my 1st RV (-4, already flying) through my credit union. They used their 'RV' classification to set the rate, and asked me to find an appraiser, since they had no clue. (Had a friend who was an aviation insurance adjuster; used him.)

Annuals (meaning the signature in the logbook and a cursory inspection; I do all the work & repairs) have cost from free to ~$250 per inspection over the last 20+ years. Almost always done by acquaintances.

Storage anywhere from $15/mo tiedown to whatever I decided to allocate out of my house note (bought land with hangar on an airpark, and no longer applicable; it's paid off). When I had a note, it was less for the entire house/property/land than a lot of people pay for a hangar. (Lots of sweat equity.)

Experimentals are almost always cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain and higher performance than 'comparable' certified, as long as you're willing to do the work and have a place to do it. Only exception is hull insurance; experimentals are a bit more. But don't limit yourself the the ones that advertise for experimentals; if you know someone that insures certifieds, it's worth asking them. There are more underwriters that will insure homebuilts than most people think.

Most common thread for me was getting to know a lot of like-minded people who have been willing to help, and then paying it forward when the opportunity presents itself. I've saved an amazing amount of money and learned an amazing amount, and I hope I've been able to pass at least some of it on over they years.

Charlie
 
I also got frustrated with plane availability/scheduling/instructor availability when I was obtaining my PPL. I purchased a 1978 Cessna 152 that was a club plane and had a ton of hours. Insurance for me was around $600 per year and covered any licensed pilot. I found a hanger to rent at a local air-park for $200 per month. I also found a semi-retired AP/AI based there that was honest and dependable. My annuals were just about $600 every year. 100 LL was tipping around $3.00 per gallon. I was working full time back then and also building my RV-10. It was very convenient owning my own plane to train in. I loved owning that plane and spent a lot of time fixing it up cosmetically with a new interior and transparencies. It was also fun doing the basic maintenance. I ended up selling the plane for about what I had into it. It went to a flight school in MN.
DSC09181.jpg
 
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Thanks everyone for a lot of good information. Looks like I have a few calls to make.

And figure out how to get a Cherokee 140 from Florida to Arizona. :D
 
Wow this is a fantastic thread..

I'm actively working on my PPL and recently my CFI's plane had a prop'strike when he rented it out to a former student.. =( It took a couple months to get it back into flying condition and all that time I was grounded.. (more time to work on my -10!)

but I have thought about getting a small Cessna or Cherokee or something in the mean time to learn in while I build..

My main question is about size.. I'm 6'2" and weigh-in at 270lbs. Will I fit in a Cherokee? I can tell you that the C172 I train in now does fit me, but its tight and not comfy.
 
If the Cherokee deal doesn't work, I would highly recommend taking a look at any of the Grumman AA5-series airplanes. They are much like the RV's in terms of having far "sportier" handling than Cessna and Piper aircraft. The Grummans also have sliding canopies, like at least some of the RV's, so you get to taxi with that ever-cool elbow hanging out in the breeze. The AA5 series airplanes are tough birds with few bad habits or real maintenance issues and few SB's. I've been flying an AA5A Cheetah for a while and very much enjoy it. It's very much like an RV10 in terms of interior space and carrying capability. The one I fly has been used to ferry a pair of Piper Seneca props to the prop shop so that gives you an idea of the cargo volume available with the back seat folded down.

With respect to "buy vs rent", I made that decision a decade ago when I was getting back into flying after a 15 year hiatus. I had my license but literally hadn't a single logbook entry in 15 years, so I was pretty much starting all over again. One hour's rental in a bagged out 10,000 hour C-150 made me say "never again". I bought an Experimental aircraft (Davis DA-2A) and have never looked back. The Davis has proven to be almost laughably cheap to own, and it lets me scratch the flying itch that I get all the time while building our "retirement traveler" aircraft.
 
I agree, some good general ownership info.

Can people please explain why the lure of a super old Cherokee/172 for $50,000 is stronger than an RV at same price? What am I missing? Is it the concern over the previous Vans owners' build quality?
 
I would recommend you decide whether you are buying for the purpose of getting your ticket or to be an owner--the 2 are not synonymous. I say this because generally speaking renting, from a purely checkbook perspective, is by far the cheapest way to fly unless you began to exceed around 100hr a year. From my years of hanging out on the AOPA and POA forums, it seems the guys who make out buying to get their ticket are the guys buy something cheap but solid, fly the #2 out of it to get whatever rating they were shooting for then dump it basically for what they put into it.

Here's what you need to understand:
1. The initial purchase cost is the cheapest part of ownership
2. There's no way to rationalize the cost of ownership in terms of money
 
exsterminator said:
I agree, some good general ownership info.

Can people please explain why the lure of a super old Cherokee/172 for $50,000 is stronger than an RV at same price? What am I missing? Is it the concern over the previous Vans owners' build quality?
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A super old (late 50's -early 60's) 172 asking price is generally in the 20k to low 30k range (depending on condition). You should be able to find a good plane for under 35k. It's reaaaaallllly difficult to find an RV under 35k that is flying or at least an RV with 2 seats that could be used for training.

As others have mentioned there are other models of experimental aircraft that might fit that bill however; Thorp T-18's, Sonex (tight squeeze for two real people), Davis and the list goes on. You need to make sure however, you can get insurance for that particular model. RV's are the standard in the experimental world so getting financing and insurance for them is easier than many experimentals. Especially when you are using the aircraft for getting your private pilot training and have little to no hours in any aircraft.

Bob
 
And another option: I have a friend has a Cessna 150 for sale. Times are really nice, and it is IFR certified! He used it to get his IFR ticket and is now selling it - for only $22,000. Not as fast as some planes, but darned cheap to keep and will probably be worth the same when you don't need it any longer.
 
Okay fellas, showing my ignorance here but to complete strangers mostly so it doesn't really matter...right?

I texted (is that a verb?) the guy in Mesa to see if it was still for sale and he replied yes. Like I said, I've bought several cars but never an airplane. I know that I'll need a qualified A&P to look at it (I know none and don't even know where to look first) I'll have to arrange financing, insurance, and hanger space. I have no idea of what paperwork is involved in the sale. I'm not going to assume that it is as easy as signing the back of a title like on a car.

So I guess what I'm asking is: What steps do you take to buy an airplane?

:eek: <----- yes, pretty accurate description of myself
 
Go to the FAA website and you will figure it out. Download FAA-H-8083 "PLANE SENSE" see chapter 2 titled "buying an aircraft" and they tell you what to do.
 
As a rookie, you need to hire someone knowledgeable to be your agent - look at the condition of the plane in question, research the true market value.

The truth is that many owners overvalue their plane; and unless they're in a real hurry to sell, they just wait for someone to come along and pay more than it's worth. And what it's worth is exactly what someone will pay!

Get (pay for) some help. And not the seller's A&P!
 
Auburntsts said:
I would recommend you decide whether you are buying for the purpose of getting your ticket or to be an owner--the 2 are not synonymous. I say this because generally speaking renting, from a purely checkbook perspective, is by far the cheapest way to fly unless you began to exceed around 100hr a year. From my years of hanging out on the AOPA and POA forums, it seems the guys who make out buying to get their ticket are the guys buy something cheap but solid, fly the #2 out of it to get whatever rating they were shooting for then dump it basically for what they put into it.

Here's what you need to understand:
1. The initial purchase cost is the cheapest part of ownership
2. There's no way to rationalize the cost of ownership in terms of money
Click to expand...


When I did the calculations for my purchase decision, my ROI was right about 100 hours per years. If I flew the plane less than that, renting was less expensive.

Of course it's hard to place a value of jumping in an aircraft anytime you want and not dealing with all the trials and tribulations of rental aircraft.
 
Buying a plane (especially an older, certified plane) is a process closer to buying a house than buying a car. If you've never done it before and/or don't have a really good idea of what to look for, hire a professional (yours; not the seller's) to do a pre-buy inspection that approaches the level of an annual inspection.

Mike Busch did a recent article on how to do a pre-buy.

Charlie
 
exsterminator said:
I agree, some good general ownership info.

Can people please explain why the lure of a super old Cherokee/172 for $50,000 is stronger than an RV at same price? What am I missing? Is it the concern over the previous Vans owners' build quality?
Click to expand...

The first thing to come to mind is cost of insurance for a pilot with no or minimal hours. The next would be the gear. Can our RVs take the abuse as a primary trainer? I suspect that there is no universal answer to that question.
 
You need to have a pre-buy inspection done for your own safety by your own agent. This involves looking at the most expensive part of your aircraft, the engine. This will probably take an A&P. Don't stop looking. It isn't often that the first one that pops up is the one that you buy.

Join the owners club/org for that model. Ask for a recommendations on who to do a pre-buy in that area. This person will be your agent, working for you. Their job is to let you know the truth of what is being offered for sale. Be ready to hire someone that does know what they're doing. If that person is not local you'll need to fly them and their tools to that location. Listen to what they say. If nothing else they may give you reasons to not offer the asking price or even walk away. If things need to be done, you want to know what they are before you buy. Even then you may end up with a surprise down the road. Its the nature of the beast, but give yourself the edge before you jump. One persons 7 rating on an interior or exterior can be another persons disaster or even a 10. You never know until you have it looked at by a pro and see it yourself. Be ready to put aside some dollars for things you find.

Check out the AOPA and join them. They have vref which can tell you what the plane is worth (assuming you know everything going in).

Google 'piper cherokee owners' and see where it takes you. Buying a plane is nothing like buying a car.

I went through this exercise, and even though I could have afforded to make all the payments for everything, the up front costs dipped into my reserve too much. Thinking about everything, buying an older plane with old engine, radios and avionics I decided to just bite the bullet and build an RV-12.

Bob
 
I did exactly what you are proposing and now have my 1966 Cherokee for sale on Barnstormers.

I also leased the bird back to the flight school to help offset costs but there are pros and cons to that plan. The plane makes money but you may be hit with unexpected repair bills.

Being an A&P helps as well.

Shoot me a PM and we can talk about the whole process, costs, etc.
 
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The webinar on Pre-Buys was great, I think you can see it either on his site or EAA.
There is NO DEFINITION set for a prebuy. If I who am an A&P wanted I could call the owner, confirm it has two wings attached, and charge you for a pre-buy. As stated, make sure he is working only for YOU, and be sure you both understand what is expected.

rv7charlie said:
Buying a plane (especially an older, certified plane) is a process closer to buying a house than buying a car. If you've never done it before and/or don't have a really good idea of what to look for, hire a professional (yours; not the seller's) to do a pre-buy inspection that approaches the level of an annual inspection.

Mike Busch did a recent article on how to do a pre-buy.

Charlie
Click to expand...
 
Wow, great thread. Makes me want to add my $0.02, particularly on the issue of purchasing a certified vs experimental aircraft. As the purchaser of an already built RV(-4), you can see which way I went, but then again I bought for the purpose of owning a great aircraft for the foreseeable future, not just building time to get a license/ratings and then move on. For the price range, nothing in the certified world is going to come close to the performance you'll get out of that RV-6 for sale, and given who the builder was (former chief engineer at Van's, I believe), that probably takes concerns over build quality right out of the equation, which is a major benefit. You might buy that RV-6 and like it so much you just keep it for years.

On the other hand, even though the RV-6 looks to be a great bargain, as others have said you can get an old certified aircraft for even less, and maybe be able to keep maintenance costs to a minimum if you do a really good job selecting one that is basic and not going to need much work. (But I know my maintenance costs have been far less than if I had owned a certified aircraft and been forced to run to an aircraft mechanic every time something needed to be done.)

My main reason for posting is to point out one cost difference between experimental vs certified that hasn't been highlighted yet, and that is hangar expense. IMO, an RV shouldn't be left outside because it's not worth the deterioration you'll incur to the paint job, etc., whereas if you buy an older certified aircraft the chances are it has lived most of its life outside already and has a weathered appearance -- so there would be little to be gained by putting it in a hangar and you might as well just keep it outside, for probably $50-$70/mo, and save a boatload compared to paying hangar rent of $250-$350/mo. Hangar rent is by far my biggest expense in owning my RV (and I'm lucky enough to share a hangar with another experimental, which reduces the cost). I understand there are a couple of RVs kept outside, but they are few and far between, as most people think they should live inside.
 
While I agree that the RV-6 is a great deal. I just don't want a conventional gear airplane. And although I could "learn to fly from the right seat" I just don't want to go that route even though I only have 19 hours.

The information in this thread is priceless and exactly why I risked showing my ignorance in asking the questions. Just because I haven't posted in a while (because I've been doing a lot of research and reading the links provided from you guys) doesn't mean I'm not checking in. Please keep the advice coming, it is worth gold to me and for others like me.

I talked to my future CFI at work yesterday and he's almost as excited as I am about buying a plane rather than using the school's. He told me that out of the $50 per hour for an instructor, he "might" get $20 of that. He also told me that he'd only charge me $15 an hour.


Tim and still learning...please keep the advice coming, it is much appreciated.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I talked to my future CFI at work yesterday and he's almost as excited as I am about buying a plane rather than using the school's. He told me that out of the $50 per hour for an instructor, he "might" get $20 of that. He also told me that he'd only charge me $15 an hour.
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Make absolutely sure he can "freelance" before you budget for $15/hr instr. Some FBO's/Flight schools don't allow that practice.

I sense that you are becoming emotionally involved with this decision. That is a really bad way to approach an aircraft purchase. Again ask yourself what's your primary reason for purchasing? Are you looking for the absolute cheapest way to earn your Private or are you looking long-term, post check ride? Make sure you objectively crunch the numbers based upon the rental rate. IOW can you buy AND operate (factoring purchase price, direct and indirect costs) for less than $135/hr? Is that an even an issue for you? IMO, you have to have this nailed down before you can seriously begin scouring TAP or Controller much less get into the E-AB vs certified decision process.
 
I asked him that very question about freelancing...although I used "moonlighting" and he said they didn't care what he did on his own time. So that is taken care of.

I'm excited about getting back into training. I'm excited about finishing a goal I set for myself over 20 years ago. I'm excited that my wife is on board. I'm excited about getting things rolling again. Emotional about one plane for sale? No, I'm still shopping around and have bought enough high dollar things in my life that I'm not going to jump on the first thing I see having not done any research about it. This thread is a major item in that research, to get the advice of people who've been there and know the ropes. I'm in the process of lining up an A&P familiar with Piper Cherokee's to help with a pre-buy evaluation on any plane I find, not just the one close to me. I'm waiting on an insurance quote to get an idea of what I'll be paying there. I've sent and received several PM's from members here who are a huge help.

I appreciate the comments here, favorable or not and especially those such as yours which ask questions on how I'm thinking. Keep it coming, I'm not taking my decisions lightly.
 
Another item to consider, to do an annual on a Cherokee, you will have to pay an IA. They have to maintain their status and I have never found one that will give his time away cheap, look at the $800 level plus parts and labor for anything they can find wrong. The more advanced the plane, the more the cost.. On the other hand, the EAB plane only needs an A&P to do an annual condition inspection, you can do all the work yourself, they are everywhere and often will do one for the fun of it, or for a bit of time in the aircraft if they are old and retired.
 
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