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MrNomad

MrNomad

Well Known Member
Doug, you said: Group Buy Policy Change
I've been torn on this issue for some time. On the one hand I'm more than happy to help people save some money (i.e. the no-fee, no-hassle policy in the classified section), but on the other it's difficult for me to allow non-advertisers on the site to use the high visibility of the VAF Forums to help sell large numbers of product. Example: The recent group buy of Icom radios moved (68) units I'm told - at $1,119 apiece. That comes to over $76,000 of product that Aircraft Spruce will move, due in part to promotion done in my forums. Aircraft Spruce doesn't advertise on the site (I've contacted them in the past). I allowed the group buy discussions to go on because I hadn't given the matter enough thought and didn't want to stop it once it had started. Again, I can see both sides, but now the financial future of my family almost completely depends on the VAF site - and I'm afraid that changes things.
So, from this point forward I'm only going to allow the group buy threads that reference companies that advertise on this site.

Letter I sent to Aircraft Spruce in response to your post:

Dear Jim Irwin, President of Aircraft Spruce:

During the last 14 months, I've spent $21,352 at Aircraft Spruce for products and parts to complete my RV9A. Spruce has been a good vendor, helpful, responsive, and competitive.

When I made my $10,000++ avionics purchase, I informed the RV community via Doug Reeves' website, www.vansairforce.com, that I got a good deal from Spruce.

Thousands of us rely upon Doug's website for information and tips that, quite literally, can be life saving. Doug provides this valuable service for a mere $25 per year and that's on the honor system. Aside from that, Doug says he relies upon advertising to keep this site alive.

Aircraft Spruce is conspicuously absent from the list of advertisers on www.vansairforce.com.

In my opinion, you need to demonstrate your support for the RV community by advertising your excellent company on Doug's excellent website.

Mr. Irwin, please give the matter your serious consideration.

Barry DiSimone
customer # -------
cc: Doug Reeve's website posting

 
Thank you Barry. I'm not sure this will get them interested in advertising, but I really appreciate the effort and kind words.

b,
d
 
Well, I have been torn on this issue all this week. I PM'ed Doug immediately, as it affects ME DIRECTLY! This is DOUG'S SITE and he can do with it what he will. I respect that.

Another way to look at it is:

I am doing the group buys for FREE and for everyone. The group buys are in the best interest of the people who participate. Most of them have paid Doug (ie. donated) and are supporting the site.

I am not going to pressure my choice vendor into donating to this site if he doesn't want to. I think it is very generous of them to do what they have done for those who wish to participate.

The problem is, now I need to find vendors who are either already associated with VAF or get them to kick in. This limits my choice in vendors.

I have a deal with Lord mounts at the corporate level but cannot release it with the current (new) policy in effect.

Hmmmmm, not so good...

Dunno...

What is your take?

I am at a loss.

:cool: CJ
 
I support Doug

I think it's only fair that Doug run his business in this way. Non-advertisers should not get the benefit of the use of this site. I think it's fair to say that the owners of Aircraft Spruce make a pretty good living relative to Doug and his family. We as members of this site should support him in his efforts to serve all of us and still be able to make a decent living.
 
Captain_John said:
Well, I have been torn on this issue all this week. I PM'ed Doug immediately, as it affects ME DIRECTLY! This is DOUG'S SITE and he can do with it what he will. I respect that.
Click to expand...

Cap'n, I think that your handling this by direct contact with Doug is the correct way to go.

A week or so I moved a seat heater/group buy thread from the "general discussion" to the "group buy" section, and in doing so, I sorta stepped over the line----although unknowingly. I also sent Doug a PM about it, so he was able to "educate" me in private, and explain the policy, and why he deleted the thread. Made a lot of sense to me.

This is something Doug had thought about for quite a while, and made the decision he feels is proper.

As you said above, this is his site, and he can do with it what he will.

I think that the success of this site is more than enough proof that Doug doing things right.
 
How about this. We all double our yearly contibution to Doug and his family so that we might continue to save hundreds on group buys. Or, how about we pay for Aircraft Spruce's ad. Coercing advertising dollars from corporations isn't good business as far as I can see. Let's find a workable alternative so that we might use the forum we all pay for.
 
Captain_John said:
Well, I have been torn on this issue all this week. I PM'ed Doug immediately, as it affects ME DIRECTLY! This is DOUG'S SITE and he can do with it what he will. I respect that.

Another way to look at it is:

I am doing the group buys for FREE and for everyone. The group buys are in the best interest of the people who participate. Most of them have paid Doug (ie. donated) and are supporting the site.

I am not going to pressure my choice vendor into donating to this site if he doesn't want to. I think it is very generous of them to do what they have done for those who wish to participate.

The problem is, now I need to find vendors who are either already associated with VAF or get them to kick in. This limits my choice in vendors.

I have a deal with Lord mounts at the corporate level but cannot release it with the current (new) policy in effect.

Hmmmmm, not so good...

Dunno...

What is your take?

I am at a loss.

:cool: CJ
Click to expand...

This was a much longer post, but I'm editing it because I think it would have been missunderstood.

Here's the short version. Doug is a swell guy. I love this site and hope it continues to do well. I will continue to support it both financially and with the content I provide in the form of posts. I really mean this, it IS NOT sarcasm.

I think it's a bummer that we can no longer freely discuss group buys that aren't from an advertiser on this site. These deals have saved many of us a lot of money. I was hoping that as this site became more commercial that it would continue to be about the RV building community and what is good for ALL RV'ers, but I guess at times it's necessary to limit the content in order to keep the commercial side viable. So be it.

I'm guessing that group buys will continue to happen, but be hosted over on RivetBangers which is commercial content free and doesn't have advertisers to keep happy. Of course that's a much smaller audience, so the deals won't be as good and fewer RVers will benefit.
 
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Captain_John said:
I am doing the group buys for FREE and for everyone. The group buys are in the best interest of the people who participate. Most of them have paid Doug (ie. donated) and are supporting the site. He might be willing to host it.

...

Hmmmmm, not so good...

Dunno...

What is your take?
Click to expand...
If you feel strongly about this, start up an e-mail list dedicated to group buys. You might try contacting Matt Dralle at Matronics (home of the RV-List).

I agree that this is Doug's site, and he is completely free to do what he wants. And everyone else is free to use another means to learn about group buys if they want.
 
Gents, I know that we are all in agreement that Doug is free to run his site his own way. When we are here, we are in Doug's house. We don't have to like it and I think we can constructively criticize so long as we keep all the criticism above board.

That being said, the real reason for my group buys is to benefit the builder(s). They are done by me (us) for the RV community. The fact that a company needs to facilitate the deal and possibly make money off the deal is a by product as far as I am concerned. Doug sees it differently. Okay...

The group buys are CERTAINLY something that pulls people to this site and that means more hits for this site and more dollars/donations for Doug.

I dunno, really. I do know that www.rivetbangers.com and www.homebuiltairplanes.com are two websites dedicated to the spirit of experimental airplanes and both Spike and Jake are doing them out of the generosity of their own hearts.

I cross post the GB's to those sites, but the primary interest is here due to the sheer numbers of this site due mostly to the fact that it has been up for a longer period of time.

Once again, I am just trying to do a good thing and I get caught in the mud!

So, bottom line...

No more group buys in the near future for me on www.vansairforce.net, I guess?

Hmmmm, not a good solution.

:( CJ
 
It's Doug's site BUT let's check our assumptions. There many possible reasons for Doug providing this site. Two of them are:

1) to promote the building and enjoyment of RVs

2) to support his family and his flying

Eliminating group buys seems like it would help #2, but may not since it reduces the value of his site to his customers (us)! That could reduce site visits, which could reduce the value of advertising for all advertisers and could reduce the likelyhood of attracting new advertisers!

It's been my experience in business that if I take care of the customer and provide greater value, greater economic value will come to me and my family. I also experience greater intrinsic value, which is important to me. It's why I love my job and see it as so much more than a paycheck. In this case group buys increase the value to builders and owners whioch should make advertising space more valuable.

I'm not sure what to recommend to Doug except to say if it's good for RVers it will naturally be good for his site and therefore for him and his family.

It's also hard for me to feel too badly for a guy who can fly during the day when I'm in my office! I'm happy for him to have that freedom, and wish him continued success, but it seems to me making it harder on the rest of us through reduced group buys is not a very good way to go about it. I also have run my own business and know that if I take off in the morning to play I have to work later in the day to make up for it! I'm sure Doug's business is the same way.

I think the right way for Doug to approach this is by continuing discussions with ACS and other companies that benefit from group buys. Keep telling them the $ value of the business they receive through the group buys and how many people view these forums every day. If they are smart they will want to get permanent exposure on the website. This is the #1 forum for RVs and RVs are the #1 homebuilt so it should be easy for ACS and the others to see what's in it for them.
 
Bubblehead said:
I think the right way for Doug to approach this is by continuing discussions with ACS and other companies that benefit from group buys. Keep telling them the $ value of the business they receive through the group buys and how many people view these forums every day. If they are smart they will want to get permanent exposure on the website. This is the #1 forum for RVs and RVs are the #1 homebuilt so it should be easy for ACS and the others to see what's in it for them.
Click to expand...

I've been running my own business close to 25 years, and I think the above paragraph is the best possible solution.

I can see both sides of the argument, but when it comes down to the bottom line, I must agree with D.R.

L.Adamson -- RV6A
 
Just for the record, I get more from Doug's site in value than I do from any group buy. That's not to belittle the group buys, but what Doug is asking isn't too much for us to adhere to, given how much WE get for free. And I'm pretty sure not everyone who is here, is paying for the service he provides.

As others have pointed out, there are other avenues to explore group buys if the underwriters don't want to sponsor Doug's site.
 
I rarely post on non-technical threads, but the restriction on group buys - one of which saved me serious money - has me motivated enough to post.

I appreciate the enormous work that Doug puts into keeping this website up and running, and the fact that it's providing income for his family. And although we're probably not paying as much as Mattituck, EI, or Airflow Performance, many of us also contribute bits of our hard-earned cash to help keep VAF up and running because we think there's value here.

At the end of the day, Doug, it's your website and you'll do as you see fit. But restricting group buys that may benefit the VAF community, but that don't benefit your advertisers, sends a pretty strong editorial message that VAF content will be modified to keep those advertisers happy. And for me, at least, that diminishes the value of VAF.

Dave
 
With the most sincere respect and admiration for what Doug has created, it seems like a pretty slippery slope to ban content simply because it will benefit a vendor who is unwilling to become a paid advertiser. Think of all the sales that have been generated by personal testimonials for things like: Catto Props, Trutrak, Bose, Harbor Freight, Pegasus Racing, Superior, Mattituck, Vetterman, B & C, etc. The fact is that through this site I get INFO. Sometimes the info causes me to make purchases. Are we really going to try to figure out which company benefits each time a post is made?

I do appreciate that Spruce is a huge fish in this business and that it would sorta chap my @$$ a bit too, but in the end large group buys can only make this site that much more popular, which in turn will make it that much more valuable to advertisers.
 
szicree said:
With the most sincere respect and admiration for what Doug has created, it seems like a pretty slippery slope to ban content simply because it will benefit a vendor who is unwilling to become a paid advertiser.
Click to expand...

There is no banning of product testimonials from the non-vendor public. It's just a policy regarding very large purchases, where the non-advertising vendor has the most to gain. This same problem happens daily across the expanse of the internet with popular web sites. The action taken, is the best; and it's been proven many times.

I feel like I'm in a time warp or Deja vu, because I've seen this same situation again and again. In the end, some restrictions just have to be applied.

L.Adamson
 
No Big Deal

Keep in mind that Aircraft Spruce also has free choice in this thing. For whatever business reasons, they have decided not to advertise on this site at the present. We should respect that decision.

The building community is a a pretty small community and as far as I can tell there isn't that much competition. The builder is pretty well captured or at least limited to very few vendors for parts and equipment. I think it is pretty generous of companies to even consider offering group buys as I don't think they really need to do so. Let's face it, everyone building a plane is going to buy many of these items whether the items are offered as a group buy or not. Yes there is some value for the vendors in processing one large order, but without the group buys vendors will still make their money if they have a good product which is what most of the group buys target anyway.

I respect Doug's decision. I also respect the right of the driving forces behind these group buys to take their efforts elsewhere. Seems to me, everyone will be happy. While it would be convenient to do everything on one site, I don't see where it is a big deal to jump to another site as we become interested in a group buy.

As far the censorship thing is concerned, Doug has the right to allow or censor anything he wants. If we don't like it, we have the right to go elsewhere or start up our own site free of censorship. What a country! Isn't choice great!

Come here for the fun and technical help and go elsewhere for a group buy - no big deal.
 
L.Adamson said:
There is no banning of product testimonials from the non-vendor public. It's just a policy regarding very large purchases, where the non-advertising vendor has the most to gain. This same problem happens daily across the expanse of the internet with popular web sites. The action taken, is the best; and it's been proven many times.

I feel like I'm in a time warp or Deja vu, because I've seen this same situation again and again. In the end, some restrictions just have to be applied.

L.Adamson
Click to expand...

Resistance if futile. You will be assimilated.

:D

Now, to get your mind off serious policy stuff...

Here's a little clip about assimilation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uiDbMRl1ks
 
Totally Bummed

I must say I am very dissapointed. This will not benefit the community or the future revenue of the site. Maybe I could see it if Doug is drumming up the group buy business but he is not, others are doing it and doing it for free, for the benefit of all. How can you have true competition with a limited and select pool of candidates?

I agree this is Doug's site and he is/should be free to run it as he sees fit. But then it can't truely be called a community, maybe a membership.

For the record, I should be forthright and say I have not donated any $$ to Doug. I enjoy the community forum, but that is just it, the community. I have considered it, but as Doug has said this is a business. I see alot of advertising and a fully stacked aircraft which surely accounted for some other compensation. That by the way is OK with me, Doug did a great job creating the site and putting the effort in. Doug you deserve the revenue you generate but this tact sours the atmosphere.

There. I said my peace. Sorry, but I felt strongly enough that I couldn't sit by and stay silent. I wish Doug and his family health and continued good fortune. Group buys can and will go elsewhere.
 
I see now that this site is please help me feed my family in the donate section. What happened to the good old RV Forum? Doug, I will send another check. As to advertisement, most companies have a certain mandated criteria in their budget, it's a numbers game. Maybe now that Spruce has benefited from Doug's site they will participate in advertising here. I don't see a negative front towards Spruce helping them in making that decision. Group Buys should go on IMHO as normal, if not here then taken to another RV site.

Side note: If I were the Spruce Ad Rep, due to this thread I would shut down any and all group buys on this forum. And by the way, I decided not to participate in the Group Buy and I purchased with an order from Stein.
 
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Thanks Doug for the site. The criticism in my original post was poorly thought out. This site is the first one I visit each day and return to many times during the day. I did participate in the Hooker Harness and Icom group purchases but I fully accept the responsibility of integrating the Icom into my panel (thanks USAF for letting me practice on KC-135s). My Grand Rapids EIS and all of the sensors came from Stein as well as my soon to be ordered GRT EFIS, Garmin transponder and various assorted backup steam gages. Interior is on order from Classic Aero; So, I think the VAF advertisers are making out very nicely.

Steve Eberhart - RV-7A getting prepped for paint. $25 is being sent to Doug tomorrow.
 
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group buys

It's my impression that group buys attracted many people to this site. If so, the new policy could be a bad thing, but I suspect that most RV'ers are now aware of this site and there is limited growth (new builders).

When I created this thread after the first group buy: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=5576&highlight=group+buys

I asked:
While we want to support the advertisers who help this forum exist (and many of you seem to do so), maybe vansairforce.net could also get a referral percentage on group buys?
​

At the time, Doug and others did not think that would be a good idea. I don't know how this would work, but as long as it is transparent, I don't personally have a problem with Doug or Captain_John (or another person who puts all the work in that they have) getting compensated in some way for that. I think from what we've seen on this forum that we can just trust these people to do the right thing.

Another option - group buy facilitators would require all purchasers to be registered (paying) vansairforce members. I know that would throw in some overhead, but perhaps our very technically accomplished host could figure out a way to help the facilitators manage that. Hard to know if this would be a better deal for Doug w/o having an idea how many buyers aren't dues-paying.

I do think that this group could and should politely push vendors (I'm pretty sure Spruce could afford Dougs rates). I don't think it's unreasonable for us to ask the vendors that we buy from to support a very important nexus of the community.

All that said, I also had not donated to Doug. That's corrected now, but to be honest, this site isn't very aggressive about donations. I suspect that is because of our hosts personality, but if this site had been more in-my-face about donating, I would have given sooner. Squeaky-wheel-gets-the-grease.
 
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My perspective

Bob Collins said:
Just for the record, I get more from Doug's site in value than I do from any group buy. That's not to belittle the group buys, but what Doug is asking isn't too much for us to adhere to, given how much WE get for free. And I'm pretty sure not everyone who is here, is paying for the service he provides.
Click to expand...

szicree said:
With the most sincere respect and admiration for what Doug has created, it seems like a pretty slippery slope to ban content simply because it will benefit a vendor who is unwilling to become a paid advertiser. Think of all the sales that have been generated by personal testimonials for things like: Catto Props, Trutrak, Bose, Harbor Freight, Pegasus Racing, Superior, Mattituck, Vetterman, B & C, etc. The fact is that through this site I get INFO. Sometimes the info causes me to make purchases. Are we really going to try to figure out which company benefits each time a post is made?
Click to expand...

You know, those of use who have met Doug know he is "great guy", but I submit that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything. The issue is whether you as a viewer/particpant derive value from the site or not. Face it, Doug had the vision to create vansairforce.net as an enhanced center for the RV community, a vision that was a bit different than the then-center of the RV universe, Matt Dralle's RV-List. He then stepped up and invested the time and money in putting together what has become the de facto center of the RV builders community. In doing so he provides value to all of us who use the forum (which is how many thousand now?). Bob Collins makes an excellent point above... he's derived far more value from the information exchange than he could have saved on any group buy. Good for him for recognizing the value he (and others) derive.

No one is saying we shouldn't post personal testimonials (feedback/reviews/critiques/information) on various products, in fact it is encouraged, only that it should be not be used as a platform for commerce. In essence Doug is saying use this forum to freely exchange information, but don't use as a commerce forum (other than personal classifieds). This is an important distinction and I believe the essence of the issue.

Doug's business model is exactly the same as any and all media companies in existence whether they be print, radio, TV, or Internet... I'll provide free program content in exchange for you (however briefly) viewing paid advertising. When the balance of advertising relative to content gets too out of whack viewers go elsewhere which explains why Cable TV and XM Radio exist. In the end the media must be paid for: either you pay by subscription and avoid the ads, or you view for free and tolerate the ads. IMHO, Doug's balance is just fine, and, as with any enthusiast media, I actually enjoy seeing the ads because it keeps be abreast of what's happening with products in a category I'm intensely interested in. Given this economic reality it seems only reasonable to say... enjoy the site to your heart's content, just don't use it to make money. To those who expect this sort of thing for altuistic purposes only I ask "do you work for free?".

So, while Doug's a great guy, I keep coming back to vansairforce.net for the value I derive, and I couldn't care less how much money he makes as long as the value proposition continues. Quite frankly, I hope he does very well financially so the site will continue to evolve and improve.

Ok, off soapbox.
 
Make a List....

Randy and Bob did such a good job of putting my own thoughts into words, that I really have very little to add to this topic, but to put it simply, I'd ask people that are bothered to make a list of the things that they get from this site. If "Group Buys" are #1, then you might reasonably be expected to look elsewhere on the 'net with Doug's decision. And I actually think (knowing Doug), that he'll say go, good luck, and come back any time to be greeted with a smile. The fact that there are 6,000 members on this site, and almost that many lurkers means it's a big community, and no one is forced to belong. I'm not too worried about creeping censorship - just a couple months ago, an advertiser's employee was making disparaging remarks about another company without identifying himself, and Doug publicly stated that it had to stop, and he didn't care if he lost the advertiser!


You can't please all of the people all of the time, and that's just life. Make that list of benefits you get from the site and see if it isn't worth the time to visit - forget the money - only about 10% of the "members" actually donate. Doug won't take my money because I have spent a bunch of years as a volunteer fireman....so Louise just paid extra this year to cover it!

Paul
 
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This site exists and is available with free content to all builders in large part because the advertisers pay for the adds. It makes sense that those people, many (most) of whom are growing small businesses expect that their advertising dollars will not subsidize the biggest bottom basement price seller in the industry.

These small busineses are real companies, with real people employed, who have expertise in the things that they sell. Nonetheless, we seem increasingly interested in squeezing every penny out of every transaction.

In addition to not supporting this site, Aircraft Spruce offers ABSOLUTELY NO TECH SUPPORT FOR ANY OF THEIR AVIONICS. Where will those people call ? The will call Steinair, or Aerotronics, or any number of high value companies which can and will support the things they sell. It costs money to support technology. Most manufacturers expect their resellers to do that. Unfortunately, in many areas (like radios) the biggest, cheapest seller will tell all its customers to call Steinair or others. They have been doing this with autopilots, and dynons for years.

Perhaps the better question here is....how much do we expect out of the experts, and the small high value sellers, when we refuse to support them with a purchase, and instead buy on price alone?

Is it fair to expect advertisers to fund a site, if their main price competitor gets to sell large, cheap quantities here for free?

Is it fair for people to buy product cheap in one place and call for support to one of the shops that was "not worth" the extra pennies at purchase?

I am sorry, but sometimes it amazes me how we have forgotten business manners. Would you expect a catering company to pick up the tab for the hall, and still let you buy the steak from Sam's club? There is nothing wrong with Doug protecting the people who make this site, in its current format, possible.
 
Jconard said:
Perhaps the better question here is....how much do we expect out of the experts, and the small high value sellers, when we refuse to support them with a purchase, and instead buy on price alone?

Is it fair to expect advertisers to fund a site, if their main price competitor gets to sell large, cheap quantities here for free?

Is it fair for people to buy product cheap in one place and call for support to one of the shops that was "not worth" the extra pennies at purchase?

I am sorry, but sometimes it amazes me how we have forgotten business manners. Would you expect a catering company to pick up the tab for the hall, and still let you buy the steak from Sam's club? There is nothing wrong with Doug protecting the people who make this site, in its current format, possible.
Click to expand...



Best post on this subject so far.

I'm not even building an RV. I have a T-51 I am working on. For $25, this is the best return on money spent for my project. Which was the original reason I came to this site, regardless the advertising decision.
 
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I'm on Doug's list of people who should not donate, Teacher/Middle School Principal for 35 years, but I've donated in the past, and I donated again today. This is the only site on the internet that I visit mutiple times each day. I feel like the information on this site is incredably valuable to me, and it's worth every penny I've donated.
I've never participated in any of the group buys in the past, and probably won't participate in the future. It just doesn't work for me.
This is Doug's site and he can run it however he wants, and if I don't like it, I'll quit visiting. I do hope I don't have to read a lot of "pledge breaks" request for donations like NPR!

Thanks Doug!
 
donations

only about 10% of the "members" actually donate.​

This percentage doesn't surprise me, but the community should be able to do better.
 
mdoyle said:
I'm on Doug's list of people who should not donate, Teacher/Middle School Principal for 35 years, but I've donated in the past, ..........snip............ I do hope I don't have to read a lot of "pledge breaks" request for donations like NPR!
Thanks Doug!
Click to expand...

Thanks, Mike. If you are a middle school principal you really don't have to donate (thank you for doing it). I really do mean that - the person working in the K-12 grade range is precisely the person I was speaking to with that educational system donation waiver. You are one of the 'bedrock people' in society and I want to reward you for that in some small way.

No pledge breaks ever - I promise. Years ago I tried to remind people for a month each year, but I stopped doing that. Now I simply keep a page of all the people who have donated quietly up in the upper left corner of the front page and I update it twice a month. Sometimes I mention it's updated, sometimes not. I'm more comfortable with this arrangement...

Kindest,
Doug
 
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Thanks Doug, I really was a middle school principal, retired for 2 months, and then went back into education in another capacity. (I am still working with kids K-12 everyday)
I really believe this country's success is based on its public education system and military strength. Our K-12 education systems availability to everyone allows any student who chooses to achieve at his or her highest ability.
Thanks for your site Doug, and I will continue to contribute because of the education I receive here. I feel like I have made many friends here even though I have not met most of them.
 
Ding-ding-ding!

Jconard said:
This site exists and is available with free content to all builders in large part because the advertisers pay for the adds. It makes sense that those people, many (most) of whom are growing small businesses expect that their advertising dollars will not subsidize the biggest bottom basement price seller in the industry.

These small busineses are real companies, with real people employed, who have expertise in the things that they sell. Nonetheless, we seem increasingly interested in squeezing every penny out of every transaction.

In addition to not supporting this site, Aircraft Spruce offers ABSOLUTELY NO TECH SUPPORT FOR ANY OF THEIR AVIONICS. Where will those people call ? The will call Steinair, or Aerotronics, or any number of high value companies which can and will support the things they sell. It costs money to support technology. Most manufacturers expect their resellers to do that. Unfortunately, in many areas (like radios) the biggest, cheapest seller will tell all its customers to call Steinair or others. They have been doing this with autopilots, and dynons for years.

Perhaps the better question here is....how much do we expect out of the experts, and the small high value sellers, when we refuse to support them with a purchase, and instead buy on price alone?

Is it fair to expect advertisers to fund a site, if their main price competitor gets to sell large, cheap quantities here for free?

Is it fair for people to buy product cheap in one place and call for support to one of the shops that was "not worth" the extra pennies at purchase?

I am sorry, but sometimes it amazes me how we have forgotten business manners. Would you expect a catering company to pick up the tab for the hall, and still let you buy the steak from Sam's club? There is nothing wrong with Doug protecting the people who make this site, in its current format, possible.
Click to expand...


We have a winner. Good post JConard.

Being a current small business owner, and, growing up in small business with my family all my life, I witness people each day that have no clue to what it takes to own and run a business. It is not a question of "forgotten business manners" as JConard posts, it is one of complete ignorance. Peope don't know business manners because they have never had to excercise them, nor were they taught them! All people think when they think of business is K-Mart or Wal Mart and you don't need manners if you exclusivley shop with them.

Off my soap box!

McStealth
 
<snip>

In addition to not supporting this site, Aircraft Spruce offers ABSOLUTELY NO TECH SUPPORT FOR ANY OF THEIR AVIONICS. Where will those people call ? The will call Steinair, or Aerotronics, or any number of high value companies which can and will support the things they sell. It costs money to support technology. Most manufacturers expect their resellers to do that. Unfortunately, in many areas (like radios) the biggest, cheapest seller will tell all its customers to call Steinair or others. They have been doing this with autopilots, and dynons for years.

<snip>

This is one of the main reasons I purchased from Stein and should be a big factor in the decision process of where to make any major purchase. Plus, Stein is a really cool guy! :D
 
In my line of (esoteric) work, I am seen as a global technical resource. It is amazing to me how many calls I receive from people who purchased products from my competitor that then want my input on how to use them and why they are having problems. This has always mystified me, but I can assure you it is a worldwide phenomena. On more than one occasion, I have had to speak up and say that I am not the technical support arm for my competitors. I have had many clients act surprised when I put it that way. Having said that, I also know you can't satisfy everyone all the time.

Doug has done what is right and logical, as outlined by many above. As Randy Lervold said, VAF has become THE universal forum for all things RV...and rightly so since WE the builders and pilots of RV's have built this knowledge base. But this knowledge base exists because of Doug's work and the support of the advertisers. Doug's vision was clear. His business plan is just as clear to me.

I am another who receives much more value from this site than the money I send in...in fact, it's not even a comparison.

Thanks Doug and thank all of you who have added to this incredible body of knowledge. And thank you to the advertisers who cater to our desires and needs.
 
Economics 101

Doug is right and so is Aircraft Spruce. Think about it, when you get the lowest possible price in a group buy, the supplier is cutting out all that they can to give you that best price. They have cut out the advertising expense because they are dealing with you directly. Why would they want to increase the cost of that sale by paying Doug for those sales?
By rights the people who get a better price through a group buy should be paying Doug a commission, because it was through the use of his product (VAF) that they were able to save some money.

I am sure that Doug has put a lot of personal resources into creating and maintaining this site. For him to reap the rewards, whatever they maybe, is only right. It is up to him to set the rules and we should all respect them.

Kent
 
On Soapbox

randylervold said:
You know, those of use who have met Doug know he is "great guy", but I submit that has nothing whatsoever to do with anything. The issue is whether you as a viewer/particpant derive value from the site or not. Face it, Doug had the vision to create vansairforce.net as an enhanced center for the RV community, a vision that was a bit different than the then-center of the RV universe, Matt Dralle's RV-List. He then stepped up and invested the time and money in putting together what has become the de facto center of the RV builders community. In doing so he provides value to all of us who use the forum (which is how many thousand now?). Bob Collins makes an excellent point above... he's derived far more value from the information exchange than he could have saved on any group buy. Good for him for recognizing the value he (and others) derive.

No one is saying we shouldn't post personal testimonials (feedback/reviews/critiques/information) on various products, in fact it is encouraged, only that it should be not be used as a platform for commerce. In essence Doug is saying use this forum to freely exchange information, but don't use as a commerce forum (other than personal classifieds). This is an important distinction and I believe the essence of the issue.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Nicely said Randy. Everybody wants a free lunch, but realistically you can't have such a nice forum without costs and dedication. That dedication has led Doug to attempt to feed his family and pay the bills with donations from advertisers and donations on this site. Advertisers in many cases that are even involved in the site and are contributing to the community. My hats off to the Stein's, Mattituck's and the Barrett's of the world. Frankly for as much as all of us spend at Aircraft Spruce and since we are without a doubt the largest of the homebuilt communities, and since DR's site is the defacto RV site now, ACS should be embarrassed not to advertise here.

Although I have not participated in the group buys I can see the value for everyone and for the folks that organize them my hats are off to them because it is a lot of work to do that. But these are happening because of the networking capabilities of this site and large multi thousand dollar orders are being generated from this site to non-advertising commercial companies. These companies are greatly benefiting from the site's PR power without even bothering to acknowledge the source and drop DR a dime for his time and effort in putting together what amounts to most RV folks morning coffe and then some.

I suppose Doug had to take a stand at some point - after all - he only asks for the honor system from the RV builder community - you got to respect that. If ACS and others are benefitting heavily from group buy traffic on the site and unwilling to pay for advertising to help support what they are making on existing sales via the VAF site in its capacity as a commerce forum, well, then I respect that DR needs to do what he needs to do to keep the servers going and food on the plate.

My 2c.

Rob
 
re: group buys benefiting non-advertisers

That's funny. I thought group buys benefited VAF members. Personally, I'm agnostic as I'm stalled on my project for the foreseeable future, although I DID benefit from a group buy of seat heaters some time ago. They were designed for boats, I think, so they'll never be an advertiser.

Anyhow, I respect Doug and his decisions (especially since I haven't donated in some time) but it seems a little petty at this point.
 
Lots of us VAF'ers were buying from ACS long before we or Doug even had pilot's licenses.

i.e. The 3 inch hose and the NACA ducts still work great in my 935's quarter windows for twenty plus years. along with the CHT's and the EGT's and the tubing and SS braided lines, Aeroquip fittings...

53721024winocountry056rfs5.jpg


53767970935canonballal5.jpg
 
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Payback and thanks for a great service

For what it?s worth, I have not received a response from Aircraft Spruce concerning my suggestion that they advertise on Doug?s site. It?s only been a few days; sometimes letters take awhile to make their way up the food chain.

It was not my intent to cause a lengthy dialogue (38 responses thus far) but when someone provides a service as extraordinary as this website it becomes a duty to help in return. It?s no different than my friend Gil who loaned me brake line tubing so I didn?t have to wait for UPS to keep building. It?s also no different than every stranger who offers tools, parts, and a hangar when your airplane screws up far away from home.

If we don?t look out for one another, who will? The FAA? Congress?

For less than the cost of 5 gals of avgas, which buys only 45 minutes of flying, people have access to a full year of valuable information, parts sales, the occasional group-buy, comraderie, and entertainment via this website. Sadly, fewer than 10% see the morality of sending in $25 per year, but we are also the community that vendors like Spruce depend upon. Customers tell vendors what they want and smart vendors listen. In return, we reward them with our dollars. If you think Spruce ought to supply limited tech support, tell them. Unlike congress, successful vendors care what their customers think.

By urging Spruce to advertise on vansairforce.com we are helping Doug, but we are also helping ourselves because without vendor advertisement we may not have this incredible resource. Doug?s site contributes to safer airplanes and to do anything less than support his needs would be a disservice to a friend I hope to meet someday, maybe Saturday at Copperstate.

Finally, my good friend Chet and I are first time builders but we?re going to finish a QB9 in 17 months and that includes the assembly of the engine, the wiring of a sophisticated glass panel, and paint. 17 months would have been 17 years without the many threads we?ve read and the people who helped us. If not for this site, how else would two old men like us from Tucson get advice from a savvy woman like Roberta from Wisconsin on how to cut a canopy?

We wouldn?t.

Doug, consider my letter to Spruce payback & thanks for a job well done. If there?s anything else I can do to help, lemme know. Italians never forget a favor.

Barry DiSimone
 
Thank you, Barry. If I'm ever in Tucson I'm calling you first! No Copperstate or Reklaw for me this year I'm afraid....soccer games and all the other things having two young children do to your weekend <g>.

Best,
Doug
 
My .02-cents......

I know this thread started as a discussion on trying to get Spruce to advertise on the site and also about the group buy discussion. However, there have also been numerous posts about the honesty system of donating to this site.

Here's my my take on it: Why in the world and/or why wouldn't someone donate? Seriously!? I come to this site almost every single day, and have for years. Even though my project is stalled for the moment finishing a house remodel ($125,000+ remodel- with me doing all the work- puts a dent in building funds), I still visit very frequently and also try to contribute posts when/where I can. I figure with holidays, days I am without Internet access, etc., let's say I still spend about 350-days per year on the site. I find the information, dialogue, and interaction very enjoyable. So, if I spend 350 days per year on the site, divide this into the suggested $25, and you get a little over .07-cents per day! Heck, this is nothing! I'd bet most people spend just as much time here as I do.

Then I read where Doug quit the day job and this is his main source of income (along with some funds from his wife's career too). I know I read that donations to date equaled about $16,000. Granted, the advertisers also pay money above and beyond this $16k, so let's just say they add about $30,000 per year to this (this is ONLY a guess). This totals $46,000. After subtracting out hosting fees and other necessary fees associated with the site, this takes the guess of $46k down to say $40,000. Now, how in the world can someone support a family of four on $40,000? I know I couldn't, and I sure don't live a fancy lifestyle. So, the way I see it....Doug is either on the brink of starvation, or he didn't tell us about hitting the lotto. :D

10% of the members here actually contribute their recommended $25? This is absurd in my opinion. I'd bet that there have been many people who have solved very complex building questions/issues by use of this forum. Would ONE good tip on cutting your canopy, or say, wiring your panel without problems, be worth $25 to you? This is my point.

Of course Doug has always maintained that this is only an honesty-based site (ie: donate if you want but it is not required), why someone wouldn't immediately see the value in this $25 is beyond me.

Sorry.....I just fell off of my soapbox......this is just my opinion....I'd love to read a debate on why someone thinks the $25 recommendation is not worthwhile. I don't think that anyone would have one single, valid point as to why they shouldn't donate.

Thanks for reading. And Doug, keep up the good work.
 
txaviator said:
Then I read where Doug quit the day job and this is his main source of income (along with some funds from his wife's career too). I know I read that donations to date equaled about $16,000. Granted, the advertisers also pay money above and beyond this $16k, so let's just say they add about $30,000 per year to this (this is ONLY a guess). .........So, the way I see it....Doug is either on the brink of starvation, or he didn't tell us about hitting the lotto. :D
Click to expand...

Come on Doug...you're not honestly going to let them think you're starving now are you????? ;)

Cheers,
Stein
 
txaviator said:
Sorry.....I just fell off of my soapbox......this is just my opinion....I'd love to read a debate on why someone thinks the $25 recommendation is not worthwhile. I don't think that anyone would have one single, valid point as to why they shouldn't donate.

Thanks for reading. And Doug, keep up the good work.
Click to expand...

At the risk of being tarred and feathered I'll give it a go. I haven't "donated" because I recognize this site as a for-profit business, not a charity. The fact that this site has become the center of the universe for the most popular kitplane in history is all the more reason to not donate. I count approximately 38 display ads on this page alone so I have some trouble believing that Doug is struggling to keep food on the table. I'm sure at one time that was the case, but still? Furthermore, the fact that 90% of users don't pay is a double edged sword. Part of the reason viewership is as high as it is with this site is precisely because it's free and the ads don't blink at you. If the 90% who don't pay suddenly left, the value of ad space would drop like a stone. Finally, if we're gonna start donating to websites that provide us with useful information I guess I'll be writing checks to Google, Wikipedia, MSN, youporn, etc. Oops, scratch that last one.

Now, having said all that, I must add that I love this site and have a great respect for Doug's drive, initiative and marketing skill. I think it's great that he's freed himself from the endless meetings and commutes and all the rest. Bravo, Doug! It is my sincerest hope that this site grows well beyond what it is currently and that the $25 donation proceeds becomes the money you light your cigars with.

P.S. I'm a 13th grade teacher so aren't I off the hook anyway? :D
 
Steve...

Is the "13th grade" for kids who didn't pass the 12th grade, or is it the first year of college :p :D
 
txaviator said:
snip....I know I read that donations to date equaled about $16,000. Granted, the advertisers also pay money above and beyond this $16k, so let's just say they add about $30,000 per year to this (this is ONLY a guess). This totals $46,000. After subtracting out hosting fees and other necessary fees associated with the site, this takes the guess of $46k down to say $40,000. Now, how in the world can someone support a family of four on $40,000? I know I couldn't, and I sure don't live a fancy lifestyle. So, the way I see it....Doug is either on the brink of starvation, or he didn't tell us about hitting the lotto. :D...snip
Click to expand...

Yikes! We're talking about my W-2 now, huh? :eek::D

In reality Gary, you're low. Our family is doing almost the same as it did when I was a Systems Analyst in an I.T. department and my wife was a Spanish Teacher. Our hours are just different now, in little clumps over all 24 instead of a single stretch. Very middle America. Currently she makes 90% less as a yoga instructor and I make a little more than I did (but now we pay for all of our familiy's health insurance and there is no 401k matching, etc). It comes out about the same in the end. Not rich. Not poor.

Again, I've always stated that if you don't want to donate, for whatever reason you might have, don't.

Anyone want to talk about RVs?

b,
d
 
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szicree said:
At the risk of being tarred and feathered I'll give it a go. I haven't "donated" because I recognize this site as a for-profit business, not a charity.
Click to expand...


Then maybe it is time to start a mandatory charge of $5-10. The people who gladly give the $25 will keep supporting it, and the people who don't currently support it would still get it for $20-$15 less. If those who don't pay now don't contribute, well, they weren't paying in the first place.
 
Doug, one of the things that concerns me about the various aviation magazines is how often the editorial content is changed to accomodate the need to keep advertisers. I know dozens of writers who don't recognize their product reviews or flying experience articles because the editor of the magazines thought the advertisers whose product might have been critiqued, would pull their ads.

As a result, most of these magazines have no real integrity and the articles, though written honestly, don't reach the audience -- us -- in the same manner.

That's why I think the most important value of social networking sites -- in this case built around RVs -- is the fact that the audience -- us -- can exchange information in its purest form.

The flip side of the non-advertiser issue is the issue of the advertiser issue. (And I'm talking ONLY about the forums). Just curious if you find yourself between a rock and a hard place on occasion between the content of the forums and the folks who DO advertise? It can't be a particularly fun place to be.
 
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Bob Collins said:
snip...Just curious if you find yourself between a rock and a hard place on occasion between the content of the forums and the folks who DO advertise? It can't be a particularly fun place to be.
Click to expand...

You might be suprised Bob, but no. There have been both positive and negatives discuss about a lot of the advertised products, myself included. I've always told the advertisers to register in the forums and address any negative issues, as (IMHO) it is an easy way to generate good PR and stay in touch with your audience.

I will admit to, maybe once every two or three months, contacting an advertiser to make them aware of negative comments in a particular thread. I never alter that thread (unless it violates the rules of course), I simply bring it to the attention of the advertiser so they can register and address the issue. Bringing that to their attention seems like the nice thing to do.

I'm pretty lucky in that any product I use gets an honest shake. If there is something I don't like, I'm certainly free to talk about it - even if it is advertised here. I know that it will be addressed, or the reasoning behind it being that way will be explained to me.

Bob, you're the only professional writer I know :). I wish I had 5% of your writing skills.

b,
dr
 
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