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ipad2 - replacement for traditional avionics in the cockpit??

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cbrown747

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I have been trying to get as much info on the ipad2 and it's use for general aviation. I already know some boundaries such as 35-95 degrees F and also it's limit to 10000ft. I also have seen the typical apps for pilots such as charts, weather, etc..

So can the ipad2 possibly replace the far more expensive gps glass panels such as garmin, grand rapids, dynon, etc.?

Does anybody know how the ipad2 stacks up to the above mentioned traditional gps glass panel avionics vendors?

I plan on visiting all the booths during the sun n' fun airshow this year and ask around as well.
 
iPad Vs avionics

I think the iPad is a great cockpit tool... but it was NOT developed for reliability with airplanes in mind. I wouldn't bet my life nor my $80-100K investment in the plane just on instrumentation that's not developed specifically for it's intended purpose (the airplane).
 
I'm kind of curious if the smaller design of the new ipad2 will be more sensitive to heat and shutdowns. Any input from someone with an original that has upgraded?

Bob
 
Change in screen?

I was wondering if they came up with a solution to the screen glare? Any PIREPS?

Thanks!

J. Dembs
Rocklin, CA
 
1 mm thinner

I'm kind of curious if the smaller design of the new ipad2 will be more sensitive to heat and shutdowns. Any input from someone with an original that has upgraded?

Bob

I saw on Apple's website that iPad 2 is only 1 mm thinner... that's about 1/2 the thickness of a dime.
 
And without any input from other aircraft systems, the iPad is a long way from being a replacement for most glass panels.
 
I saw on Apple's website that iPad 2 is only 1 mm thinner... that's about 1/2 the thickness of a dime.

True the actual change in the thickness doesn't appear to be much but due to the relative size it is quite a bit. Apple advertises 33% thinner. That's great for users but it could be problematic for heat dissipation. That's why the question...

Thanks,

Bob
 
Message from a curmudgeon Luddite...

I wouldn't consider for a moment sticking some trendy silicon toy into an airplane panel. In a very short time the operating system will change, the product will be unsupported, and whatever comes along next (that would be a week from now) won't be a direct replacement physically or functionally.

Stick with aviation oriented products. At least the screens are better in sunlight, though far from what I would consider good even in the best of them.

John Siebold
 
I've got an iPad charts app that is almost ready for release. I think that I've done a good job with it. Having said that, I would never, ever consider it to be suitable as a primary navigation tool and I have a main screen message as well as pop-up messages indicating that it should not be used as such.
 
Message from AOPA

Just received this from AOPA. Kinda silly, but the message is deadly serious and very germane to all of us!

http://www.aopa.org/aopalive/?watch...y=807011644&priority=F311PSA&WT.mc_id=F311PSA

I would put my money that Garmin helped fund this ludicrous "safety" video.
What a freakin joke! It is a slap in the face to the intelligence of all pilots.
Hmmm, what has AOPA done for me lately besides providing a digital issue of it's magazine for display on, wait for it.......my IPAD!
 
I would put my money that Garmin helped fund this ludicrous "safety" video.
What a freakin joke! It is a slap in the face to the intelligence of all pilots.
Hmmm, what has AOPA done for me lately besides providing a digital issue of it's magazine for display on, wait for it.......my IPAD!

Maybe so....Maybe so.
However, I have found that there is a significant number of pilots who spend way to much time heads down. The majority of ones attention should be spent flying the plane, not the panel.
We have an unwritten rule in my work environment, that if it takes more than one push (or turn) to get what you need, have the other guy do it.

The bottom line (and point of the video) is to remind us to look outside, and stay focused on making sure that the plane is doing what you want it to do.
Mike, Your message clearly states that you believe 3 things.
1. This is a co-conspiracy between Garmin and AOPA.
2. The message contained in the video is an insult to the perceived intelligence of all pilots.
3. AOPA is hypocritical as they publish ads and stories about EFIS, iPads, etc.
Maybe you would care to enlighten us with some factual explanations, so that we might understand your premises.

This has now gone OT, and I apologize. I think that this is a good discussion and wanted to move it to another forum. Mike, I see you are a moderator, so move it to an another forum if you deem it appropriate. THX
 
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This is probably what was said when glass started making its way into GA airplanes. The diehards refused to go to glass and stuck with steam gauges.

Glass is hear to stay and while iPad (or anything similar) may not be made for aviation, nothing says it will not happen in the near future. Apple makes a great product. They are reliable and do not suffer from 99% of the issues that PC (that some GA EFIS's are based on) users deal with. iPad's are hardly toys and would venture to guess that IF Apple were to pursue a serious aviation app with inputs, you would have a great and reliable product.

As for the AOPA commercial, there is SO much information presented on modern EFIS system, it is easy for a seasoned pilot to get focused on what is going on on the screen in front of them. I have flown in glass cockpit jets where the PFD (Primary Flight Displays) was capable of displaying nearly 100 pieces of information. Some are overly complicated and also lead to in-cockpit laziness. People cannot navigate using a compass, map, and stop watch. If the glass goes...so does their SA.

I like flying with glass but have seen it fail...at it was purpose built for aviation use (which is sort of like saying things are mil-spec...which can be a joke.)

Turn off the glass, get out a real live map, bring along a stopwatch, and go fly. See if you can find your way around.




Message from a curmudgeon Luddite...

I wouldn't consider for a moment sticking some trendy silicon toy into an airplane panel. In a very short time the operating system will change, the product will be unsupported, and whatever comes along next (that would be a week from now) won't be a direct replacement physically or functionally.

Stick with aviation oriented products. At least the screens are better in sunlight, though far from what I would consider good even in the best of them.

John Siebold
 
I would put my money that Garmin helped fund this ludicrous "safety" video.
What a freakin joke! It is a slap in the face to the intelligence of all pilots.
Hmmm, what has AOPA done for me lately besides providing a digital issue of it's magazine for display on, wait for it.......my IPAD!


If you've spent any amount of time as a CFI, this is not a slap in the face. Cockpit distractions from gizmo's and all kinds of other **** that students bring along can be pretty entertaining, but also pose a serious risk if not dealt with. I've had to literally throw their stuff in the back, turn off every thing, and had to MAKE students navigate with just a sectional and clock. AOPA didn't mean this as a slam against the iPad, but more as a reminder to be cognizant of how much time you're not devoting to flying when you're playing with other stuff.

The more **** there is in the cockpit to look at, the less time you devote outside. Getting back to that basic tenant of just shut up and look out the window has served me well, never more so than in combat flying close air support.
 
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I just ordered an iPad 2 yesterday.
That video is awesome.

Lest anyone think that I am an iPad/EFIS blaster, I fly glass at work, and use my ipad to back up the Jepp charts. It is an amazing piece of equipment!
However, as was recently posted...there are times to just look out the window!
 
But would you play it when you're PIC? That's my point about AOPA's dumb video (too much sarcasm in the actor's presentation, too, IMHO)

Am I at altitude? Short final? What stage of the game am I in? How many birds do I have left before we have to land? Am I struggling with a particularly difficult level?


(no..I would not...but I would also not tweet, facebook, text, or email while driving...and people do it and die pretty often...so I can see their point..as lame as the way it was presented.)
 
I ordered the ipad2 last week, hopefully it arrives soon. I didn't buy it for aviation though I am going to put charts on it and use foreflight. It is the holy grail in aviation applications.

It shouldn't be a replacement for in-panel avionics, but I think it's a better (and cheaper) option to the 695 (and maybe 696).

That video is a joke though. I get the intent and understand the message. But that's clearly not a safety video. It's a "don't buy the iPad and buy garmin" video.

I'll report in once mine arrives.
Phil
 
Stick with aviation oriented products. At least the screens are better in sunlight, though far from what I would consider good even in the best of them.

If I understand correctly, and you're talking aviation GPS's............the Garmin 696 is "extremely" good in sunlight. I seldom use the canopy shade, and there has never been a time, in which I was wishig the screen was more readable. In the meantime, my backup Lowarance 600c will completely wash out in some conditions.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
... But that's clearly not a safety video. It's a "don't buy the iPad and buy garmin" video...

I didn't see it that way. The message I took was to fly the plane and look outside... don't get caught up in your funky new panel doomahicky (which could as easily happen with a Garmin product... but the message wouldn't have been as silly, so less rememberable). Simply, it is a use of parody (for those who haven't seen an Apple new product introduction video, check one out to see why it is a parody) to make a point.

There was no mention of Garmin, nor Bendix/King, Dynon, Blue Mountain, Chelton, Grand Rapids, Advance Flight Systems, MGL, Grand Rapids, Trutrak, Aspen, or Avidyne. In all likelihood, they picked Apple to parody because it wouldn't annoy a dedicated aviation supplier (and advertiser), while still making the point.

It is good that discussion comes from it. That serves the purpose.
 
If you've spent any amount of time as a CFI, this is not a slap in the face. Cockpit distractions from gizmo's and all kinds of other **** that students bring along can be pretty entertaining, but also pose a serious risk if not dealt with. I've had to literally throw their stuff in the back, turn off every thing, and had to MAKE students navigate with just a sectional and clock. AOPA didn't mean this as a slam against the iPad, but more as a reminder to be cognizant of how much time you're not devoting to flying when you're playing with other stuff.

The more **** there is in the cockpit to look at, the less time you devote outside. Getting back to that basic tenant of just shut up and look out the window has served me well, never more so than in combat flying close air support.

Well.............

By now, you must know my feelings on the subject....

This forum, the AOPA forum, and a few sim forums..

I've often said, that if you get an instructor who shuts off the GPS with a smirk on their face.............then throw them out!!!

No personal offense, but when I see instructors referring to GPS as "gizmo's", I get entirely bent out of shape... :confused:

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
Turn off the glass, get out a real live map, bring along a stopwatch, and go fly. See if you can find your way around.

Sorry...........but it doesn't fly...

I see no purpose in turning off my XM weather, precision airspace boundries, exact fuel management, current TFR's, winds, altimeter settings.................and if **** hits the fan, terrain & obstacle mapping.

As you can see, at 60 years of age, I no longer believe in "old school" navigation, just for the sake of it. However, I do, and will carry my sectionals to.... follow along, and will never blindly follow a magenta line.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
As pilots, we should use every tool available to us to fly safely. I am sure when VOR's were new, people thought they too were gizmo's. GPS' are the same way. The have made flying safer AND cheaper...but they should be supplemented by good old fashioned pilotage.

I got into an argument about using an electronic E6B versus a mechanical one..always the "what if the battery dies" comment. Some battery operated things will die (always have a spare). My comment was, "what if the engine dies...where is my crank to keep it going?"

I bet everyone on here uses a calculator too.... ;)


No personal offense, but when I see instructors referring to GPS as "gizmo's", I get entirely bent out of shape... :confused:

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
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I prefer to challenge myself as a pilot and not always depend on technology to get me through. I am not advocating taking an IFR X-C without the benefit of equipment, but a day VFR flight around the patch can be fun to do it old school.

Up until a few years ago, the USAF C-130 community used to have a requirement for doing a celestial navigation check while crossing the pond. The nav, with the help of some manuals, would take a cel shot and usually be within less than several miles. They are no longer required to do it..and the equipment has been removed from the plane. It was a cool skill and very accurate for being hundreds of years old.

I see no reason not to keep old school skills fresh...again, it can be kind of fun. Sort of like hiking with just a map and compass.

(over the past 30 days, I have been doing NDB approaches in (full procedure turns as well) and NDB holds, in training. I have NEVER done one in the operation world and probably never will but they have been fun to do...sort of)


Sorry...........but it doesn't fly...

I see no purpose in turning off my XM weather, precision airspace boundries, exact fuel management, current TFR's, winds, altimeter settings.................and if **** hits the fan, terrain & obstacle mapping.

As you can see, at 60 years of age, I no longer believe in "old school" navigation, just for the sake of it. However, I do, and will carry my sectionals to.... follow along, and will never blindly follow a magenta line.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
As pilots, we should use every tool available to us to fly safely. I am sure when VOR's were new, people thought they too we gizmo's. GPS' are the same way. The have made flying safer AND cheaper...but they should be supplemented by good old fashioned pilotage.

I agree. In fact, thanks to GPS, I've found that I tend to look farther in the distance, and then check the lakes, rivers, towns, etc. on the sectional.

Perhaps I'm spending more time with my eyes out of the cockpit, than keeping them in, while flipping knobs and triangulating a couple of VORs.

Perhaps you've seen the story that I commented on a few months ago. A 90 year old ex-pilot was taken on a plane ride through mountain country on his birthday. He made the comment, that he had never seen all the beautiful scenery while he was the PIC. The reason was.....was that he had to spend too much time with navigating.....back in those old days.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
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Well.............

By now, you must know my feelings on the subject....

This forum, the AOPA forum, and a few sim forums..

I've often said, that if you get an instructor who shuts off the GPS with a smirk on their face.............then throw them out!!!

No personal offense, but when I see instructors referring to GPS as "gizmo's", I get entirely bent out of shape... :confused:

L.Adamson --- RV6A


Sorry but in 17 years and 26 countries of flying, you know the one thing that's never failed? A paper chart. If you can't aviate using the basics/fundamentals without a GPS, you have a serious deficiency in your abilities as a professional aviator. And I never had a student fail for their lack of ability to use the panel mount GPS. Nor did I ever have a student get lost.
 
Its amazing how much exploration was done centuries ago with nothing more than a sextant and the stars...and a hand drawn map. Sometimes getting lost is the best part!!
 
Sorry...........but it doesn't fly...
I see no purpose in turning off my XM weather, precision airspace boundries, exact fuel management, current TFR's, winds, altimeter settings.................and if **** hits the fan, terrain & obstacle mapping.
As you can see, at 60 years of age, I no longer believe in "old school" navigation, just for the sake of it. However, I do, and will carry my sectionals to.... follow along, and will never blindly follow a magenta line.
L.Adamson --- RV6A

Not one posting has advocated not having the best equipment and most up to date information available. Please remember that the initial drift of this thread was created by my posting of the silly AOPA video which addressed pilots not maintaining good SA. Apparently, there are others who agreed with my position.
The question is this; when all the above mentioned "gizmos" fail, are we as pilots ready to deal with it? Or, does it become an emergency? As some have stated, we enjoy having the electronics, but CHOOSE to keep our skills honed on the basics. If you don't, that is your decision.
It was not that many years ago that on a Jo'burg to Kuala Lumpur flight, I found myself faced with the reality that our nav system had somehow failed us. Oh, we were on the magenta line, but the VOR that the RMI was pointing at, was not in the right place! By pulling out the low altitude chart and using some triangulating of VOR's, I was able to figure out my exact position and the heading that I needed to get back on course. Luckily, we were only about 45 minutes from the terminal environment, and everything worked out fine. So, can everything fail? Yes, it sure can, and all those "old school" navigation skills will come in handy.
As far as your other statement goes, if I was instructing/checking and a student threw a hissy fit for turning off the GPS, you would not have to throw me out, as I would already be gone! What do I care? It was not me that needed the dual/checkride!
 
Sorry but in 17 years and 26 countries of flying, you know the one thing that's never failed? A paper chart. If you can't aviate using the basics/fundamentals without a GPS, you have a serious deficiency in your abilities as a professional aviator. And I never had a student fail for their lack of ability to use the panel mount GPS. Nor did I ever have a student get lost.

I've had paper charts fail--in a DC3, if you don't have a tight grip with the window open--out they go. There's also, fold marks, overwrites, etc. Also, traffic scan lost while unfolding and orienting yourself. (Do you remember getting route changes in non autopilot aircraft--altitude and heading deviations out the ying-yang)
I do get your point but I think you're missing Adamsons which is simply that we prioritize TOO MUCH on E6Bs and dead reckoning skills in training that time has passed by. If the plane gets hit by lightning, everything dies, including the battery operated devices, (and the charts catch fire)==both highly unlikely..Are we able to find our way to the ground and an airport? That's all we need--not the ability to circumnavigate the globe with a compass and watch (both which can fail also).
These "gizmos" are actually safety devices that have kept many an aviator from being lost and disoriented. The "good" old days were filled with lost pilots who ran out fuel.
 
As far as your other statement goes, if I was instructing/checking and a student threw a hissy fit for turning off the GPS, you would not have to throw me out, as I would already be gone! What do I care? It was not me that needed the dual/checkride!

^^^ This ^^^
 
I'm sorry, but to me there just is no place in the cockpit for non-aviation consumer electronics. They simply aren't built to aviation quality standards. If airplane parts failed as often as the cheap electronic junk we all own, then airplanes would be crashing left, right and center, and nobody would be brave enough to fly. Let's face it, the cheap prices you get on electronics are the result of a "use it and throw it away" engineering philosophy. They're not built to be relied upon.
 
I do plan to use my iPad 2 in the cockpit...as a backup for my backup. I like having it for all the functionality of Foreflight and the situational awareness it brings but I, nor my plane, will rely on it for anything significant.
 
I'm sorry, but to me there just is no place in the cockpit for non-aviation consumer electronics. They simply aren't built to aviation quality standards. If airplane parts failed as often as the cheap electronic junk we all own, then airplanes would be crashing left, right and center, and nobody would be brave enough to fly. Let's face it, the cheap prices you get on electronics are the result of a "use it and throw it away" engineering philosophy. They're not built to be relied upon.
Are you arguing that all non-TSOed equipment should be similarly banished?
 
I'm sorry, but to me there just is no place in the cockpit for non-aviation consumer electronics. They simply aren't built to aviation quality standards. If airplane parts failed as often as the cheap electronic junk we all own, then airplanes would be crashing left, right and center, and nobody would be brave enough to fly. Let's face it, the cheap prices you get on electronics are the result of a "use it and throw it away" engineering philosophy. They're not built to be relied upon.

I think the misunderstanding here is that someone thinks the IPad or another tablet device will be used as the PIC's PRIMARY navigation. I've looked back thru this and several other postings that have beat this to death and didn't find anyone saying that.
My IPad is a backup to my panel-mounted Garmin. Foreflight Mobile is a much better program than any Garmin software as far as user friendly. I have it on my IPhone too so one of them can be considered a backup to my backup. I'm not going to get lost!
The majority of the IPad/tablet bashing is being done by aviators/builders that don't even own one and never will. I think it's time to say "enough is enough". If you have a question, great, ask it. If you want to bash something over and over because you don't have anything else to do, get back in the workshop and finish your RV.
 
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