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Runway Finder Shutting Down

I wonder if Jeppesen will come out with a full release of their aviation map (similar to a FAA sectional, but not identical). If you have seen these, they are really nice.

Perhaps then, everyone will be able to get licensed by Jepp to make planning sites. At least, you will have a quality product from a quality company.

My guess it that this is the planner that AOPA is working on. It would be awesome.

Here's a sample from Jepps website. http://www.jeppesen.com/download/bottlang/vfrgps-na-sample.pdf


Here's all the info: http://jeppdirect.jeppesen.com/main/store/legal/charts/vfr_us_overview.jsp
 
Joel said:
Pete & Marty, there is already an outfit with a fairly good track record of invalidating bogus patents called Electronic Frontier Foundation. Contact them at www.eff.org. They may be a great source of help in this situation.

Certainly hope so.
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Thanks Joel, I sent them an inquiry. Pretty neat site just the same.
 
Finding Prior Art

[SIZE=2 said:
The effective priority date of the '098 Patent is therefore July 31, 2001. The USPTO is legally obligated to review whether or not the claimed invention is "new" and "non-obvious" compared to the state of the art as of that date. The USPTO receives about 400,000 patent applications per year and has a long backlog. It's not unusual for the USPTO to be reviewing a case long after its filed. In this case, the PTO didn't take up the original application for examination until about four years after it was filed. [/SIZE]
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Jonathan knows what he is talking about so if you want to help Dave, find things that were in the public domain prior to July 31, 2001. It would be best to have some documentation that supports the date of the prior art. This could be anything like operating instructions, emails, anything that supports the date and the item that was publicly available.
If there is a "spot on" reference that shows the features in the claim were in the public domain, I think it can be used to file a request for re-examination. This would be a cheap way for Dave to go but is does have some risks. The risk is lowered if it is "spot on" piece of prior art.
 
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Thank you John, sounds great. I will start digging in my own archives. I did receive a reply and EFF.org. I am surprised to hear that they are aware of this incident. I will leave it here for Dave to make his own decisions but its nice to know there are free options available to take this on.

Dear Pete,

Thank you for writing to the EFF! We have been considering possible action in this situation, and your informing us of your friend's action is very helpful.

While we don't actually assist financially in situations like this, we may be able to assist legally. It would be great if you could have your friend contact me at this address so that we can best determine how we can help. Please let me know if you plan to have him contact me.

Again, thank you for the information. We appreciate it greatly.

Yours,

Rebecca Reagan
Intake Coordinator
 
Sticking Together

In order to fill the gap, I would be willing to discuss hosting a similar site to Runway Finder from Switzerland or Germany until such time as these idiots get the message.
 
Phil said:
I've been in the IT industry for 17 years now and involved in several software technologies that were patented and others who have cloned our products claiming an invention on their behalf. We currently hold 385 legitimate patents. Stuff like this comes up occasionally but intellectual property (IP) is the thing that gets challenged more in today's environment. This patent is non-sense and I have no sympathy for the folks at SkyVector.
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Having thought about it more...I pretty much agree with you. :)
 
I have sent the following to all of the members of our EAA chapter. Please copy my text and forward it to all of your chapter members, and any other GA pilots you may know. Put it in your chapter's newsletter. FlightPrep is driving the small little guys that are providing all of us a free service, out of business. This is truly a sad day. I would hope the EAA, the AOPA and Jeppesen engage FlightPrep and end this madness. Several of the FREE internet flight planning services have ceased in providing on line, scrollable sectionals.

---

Are you and your GA friends aware of this important issue. FlightPrep is threatening all of the small websites that offer flight planning, such as RunwayFinder with a patent infringement lawsuit. RunwayFinder.com is no longer. http://blog.runwayfinder.com/ Several other internet flight planning websites are no longer providing chart data on their websites. FlightPrep is clearing going after the little guys. Jeppesen, the AOPA and FlightAware have publically told FlightPrep to pound sand.

Also see the thread on the VAF forum related to this issue. http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=65912

I will never again purchase a product from FlightPrep nor Roger Stenbock who sells his flight instruction materials thru several outlets.

PLEASE FORWARD THIS INFORMATION TO ALL OF YOUR GA/HOMEBUILDER FRIENDS. All internet flight planning services are at risk.

Please support Dave Parsons at RunwayFinder anyway you can. His email is [email protected]
 
They have removed most dissenting post from their Facebook site. It was overwhelmingly negative.

The word seems to be spreading fast...and this is something they may not be able to stop.
 
Does anyone have a contact at Google Maps? They may be interested as the patent says it may be applicable not only to aviation but also road/street mapping. And I believe Google's API's were being used.
 
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runwayfinder.eu???

As a latecomer, I read this thread Friday night, and as I was thinking about it yesterday, I remembered the comment:

Jamie said:
Software patents should be illegal (as they are in Europe). Plain and simple.
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So I was glad to see this post:

islandmonkey said:
In order to fill the gap, I would be willing to discuss hosting a similar site to Runway Finder from Switzerland or Germany until such time as these idiots get the message.
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I think software can and should be patented because there are legitimate inventions that add unique and measureable value. To say inventions can't occur in the software industry is nonsense.

However claiming that you're uniquely using someone's API's as an invention shouldn't and that's what FP has done.
 
I've been in the software industry since about 1984 and am completely opposed to software patents. I think that they are ruining my industry.
 
eric_marsh said:
I've been in the software industry since about 1984 and am completely opposed to software patents. I think that they are ruining my industry.
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Same timeframe, same background and seven patents to my name. I totally agree with you.
 
Wow.. looks like they have the system down for back-dating patents... This divisional **** is a joke in this case.. looks like just a foot in the door and then you can back-date any invention to that..

This is getting worse.. and looks like we're far from being done..
 
NavMonster site shuts down

Another web site falls prey to FP. When will it end... NavMonster was one of my favorite sites. You can read about it here
 
638RS said:
Another web site falls prey to FP. When will it end... NavMonster was one of my favorite sites. You can read about it here
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FlightPrep deserves a most hearty welcome at SNF and at Oshkosh. Hope to see them there! That is, if their credentials are not just plain rejected by SNF and the EAA.
 
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It would be fun...

It would be fun to picket their booth, wouldn't it? I can see it now... a sea of people wearing the boycott T-shirts standing there. Well deserved publicity.
 
BSwayze said:
It would be fun to picket their booth, wouldn't it? I can see it now... a sea of people wearing the boycott T-shirts standing there. Well deserved publicity.
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I think it would be nice if we had a few thousand people drop off a piece of rubber dog poo at their booth at Oshkosh. Give them the same thing they are giving the aviation community.
 
patent valid?

The chain of patent applications goes back to 2001 when they claim to have had an operational system doing a 'unique' combination of functions, at least unique enough to get a patent awarded. The Open Geospatial Consortium is an international standards group that oversees online mapping protocols and standards. Vendor members have been sued by patent filers for infringing in the same way we see with RunwayFinder, but the suits have been always overturned. The only way to get the claims dropped or the patent award overturned, is to document 'prior art' : the fact that someone else was doing this before they were. With broad claims on defining some special combination of community practices: a typical server-client and web architecture, web map services, and flight planning, I think it should be easy to start beating the bushes and finding evidence that FP was not the first to do these things.

If you know of a favorite website or web application, you can actually go to the Internet Archive, a project to backup websites monthly back into the 1990s, and actually see what was online then! Having a few cases of demonstrated capability that predates the early claims in 2001 would stand up in court and invalidate their patent. Please check:

http://www.archive.org/web/web.php for your favorite app.

BTW, US Patent and Trademark employees work on a quota system. In addition to a base wage, they make a commission on every filed patent they process. No wonder so many patents escape thorough review when they are encouraged to work so quickly...
 
sign of the times

Probably more serious for Flight prep than making money from the patent, reminds me of a book called "The Innovators Dilemma" basically the threat of lower cost 80% solutions eating into your business and your business model or your culture not allowing you to take it seriously or react until you suddenly find out your business is in decline and you have no response. Happens a lot to high tech companies with the pace of innovation these days (look at Garmin moving up the food chain against Rockwell Collins and honeywell). If you look at web based flight planning capability and the ability to aggregate info and the appearance of the ipad and new android tablets it doesnt take much to conclude that prices for flight planning services will be driven down yet the volume of buyers will not go up net result lower revenue. FP should have come up with a different strategy to compete.
Just an opinion of course
 
Download FAA Charts for free from this URL

Looks like skyvector is just about the last site for free online planning that doesn't have deep pockets, lawyers on retainer and fees like Jeppesen or AOPA.

Skyvector took a license, so they are affiliated with FP. I can't support that. I'm new here, searched around, did not find this info, so my first post is to point you towards free FAA online downloads of charts.

It is possible to georef these charts using freeware and create your own moving map.

http://aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications


http://aeronav.faa.gov/index.asp?xml=aeronav/applications/VFR/chartlist_sect
 
BSwayze said:
It would be fun to picket their booth, wouldn't it? I can see it now... a sea of people wearing the boycott T-shirts standing there. Well deserved publicity.
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I'd kinda like to see them get denied booth space... either that, or perhaps the "Boycott FP" booth being right next to theirs.
 
FWIW

I actually have current subscription for some FlightPrep products. I've been using their PC based Golden Eagle plus with the full set of CONUS sectionals.

Even though I never used Runway Finder, I sent a note to the Sales Dept at Flight Prep that due to this patent lawsuit, I would not be renewing my subscription this year.
 
I'm seriously considering ordering a bunch of these with the FlightPrep patent printed on them. Just seems so appropriate.;)
 
runway finder shutting down

This text removed......Please, Please, PLEASE do NOT discuss doing illegal activities on my web site (hacking a site, for example).

Doug Reeves (site owner)
 
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They removed my post....

so I replaced it and added to it. Unbelievable arrogance!

Pave Tim said:
They have removed most dissenting post from their Facebook site. It was overwhelmingly negative.

The word seems to be spreading fast...and this is something they may not be able to stop.
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AOPA/Jepp

I think we are being naive if we think that AOPA and JEPP etc don't stand to gain by the loss of all the innovations made in this area in the last several years. It is not simply a matter of their lawyers are better than FlightPrep...they have a bigger audience (and a higher price). Remember, AOPA and JEPP simply refused to discuss it...with anyone but FlightPrep. AOPA and JEPP are not innovators (they redid the paper sectional? please don't insult me!) nor are they interested in experimental aircraft. They both offer the same services that are being run out of business. They also realize that boycotting FlightPrep is easy to weather...they have no business now! If anything, the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association should be in the middle of this fight...how about the EAA? At least Jepp makes no claims about how they are there fighting for us. AOPA has become an NBAA wanna-be and the prime display space at OSH each year becomes more kerosene burning each year with a token innovator placed here and there on the fringe. Most of you are not using FlightPrep now! It is a substandard product. Start canceling AOPA memberships and EAA memberships and tell em because they've decided not to get involved in an issue that safety, the cost of flying and of course another hurdle in front of anyone wishing to learn how to fly. Of course they will say they had no idea it was an issue. Don't boycott FlightPrep, boycott AOPA and EAA...they have something to lose...their claim that they support pilots and aviation innovation. FlightPrep's only claim is that they want to make money. Obviously they don't make any now or they wouldn't be wasting their time on software cleansing. Ask AOPA and EAA how many people under 50 are on their membership lists these days.
 
Now it's personal

I didn't have a dog in the fight with Flight Prep, but now that they closed down Nav Monster, I'm
*****d. Nothing better for winds aloft and quick planning P D closed the thread down, and I question the rationale, but as I said...now it's personal.

Can't an organized petition to our congressmen help? Anything?

{edit: I closed the other thread so that your comments would be part of the whole issue regarding FlightPrep and it's affect on ALL of the free planning services, including NavMonster. It keeps the discussion organized, and in one place - don't know why that's hard to understand. PFD}
 
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I do not understand the logic that EAA and AOPA should be fighting this battle for RunwayFinder. EAA and AOPA both have online flight planning software that is available to members for free, and as far as I know are continuing to offer these tools. It is not their job to protect aviation businesses, but to protect us as pilots and builders. By continuing to offer their tools to us for free as members, it seems like they are fighting on our behalf as they should.
 
Follow Rick A's lead....

Unless Flight Prep management is business-ignorant, they will be forced to respond to the reality that people are cancelling business with the company and their sales are tanking. I also have put additional pressure on the company by advising them I will also target any other company who supports Flight Prep business through advertising. I don't blame lawyers for making a mess of things. Its their nature. They make their living by proving someone else is wrong. I blame business leaders who lose sight of their markets. EVERYONE who agrees that Flight Prep management is wrong should stop spending any money supporting that company as well as other companies who support FlightPrep. And, of course they should communicate their decision to those companies.
 
jtrollin said:
I do not understand the logic that EAA and AOPA should be fighting this battle for RunwayFinder. EAA and AOPA both have online flight planning software that is available to members for free, and as far as I know are continuing to offer these tools. It is not their job to protect aviation businesses, but to protect us as pilots and builders. By continuing to offer their tools to us for free as members, it seems like they are fighting on our behalf as they should.
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Somewhere in a boardroom, the execs of these two enormous corporate entities are banking on that allegiance and bulldozing on with their own agenda. Their services are not free...you pay to for your membership...which AOPA increased this year along with suddenly charging for medical advice that used to be free. And if you think EAA is cheap, go to OSH some year, then check your billfold. All the while these "freedom of the sky lobbyists" are paying themselves half a million a year in salaries. I don't remember Dave Parsons (Runway Finder) or Marc Alexander (NavMonster) asking for anything. They did it because they love aviation and wanted to share what they thought were helpful innovations. Our guardians are asleep...tired from reading their balance sheets.
 
WenEng said:
...... I will also target any other company who supports Flight Prep business through advertising.....
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OK How about a list of these companies and supporters. Someone must know.

p.s. Like Gary Baker noted....FlightPrep also removed my comments from their Facebook page (they removed all comments that didn't gush with glowing reviews of their litigation efforts.....it's their Facebook page, guess they can do what they like with it...doesn't seem worth the effort to even visit their website or Facebook page anymore....just bumps up the hit counter)
 
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