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Forced landing with a slider

Lycosaurus

Lycosaurus

Well Known Member
After reading about the forced landing of a RV-9A in Marianna (another thread), I was wondering about the best procedure for unlatching (or not) the slider. It seems that the way the aircraft buckled in this event, the slider canopy would need to be forced open.

See http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=68039

I realize that the pilot was complaining of back pains, but otherwise, would he have been able to extricate himself from the wreck? I can't imagine what would happen in case of a fire.
 
Canopy buster

I believe this why several people have opted to have the copilot stick quickly removable a carbide tip on the end. You can basically spear the canopy and it would break. No idea if that is practical, or ever been tried, especially if injured...but thats about your best shot if alone and you need to get out quick.
 
Is this a stupid idea?

I have read many ideas about canopy busters, and the difficulty of use if injured, hanging on the straps, etc. Since I'm getting pretty close to flying my -7 (if I could just find hanger space), I was giving this some thought.

Why not pack a small pistol. If you need to crack the plexiglass, fire the gun! Heck, with a full clip you could just about carve a hole and kick your way out. The only downsides that I could think of was firing a gun in a small enclosed space (noise and smoke), and the possibility of igniting fumes if there's a fuel leak.

Waddya think?
 
Been contemplating the same thing.

There are several survival type knives out there - some military issue or copies thereof for aviation service personel. They all look big and heavy, but they typically have a serated section on the blade and a sharp butt for using to break glass or plexi. Not sure what I'll carry, but I'm thinking knife or prybar / hammer. The gun idea sounds like it might just compound your problem.. :eek:
 
Fire extinguisher

I was thinking of attaching a sharp object to the fire extinguisher. That would give it some mass when striking the canopy. Then again, the downside is that if the extinguisher fires off... not good.:eek:

On a lighter note, maybe I'll just carry a 5/32 drill bit with hand drill. Canopies seem so easy to crack when you are building them.... :p
 
I think this is probably being way overthought.. there is already a story about a guy breaking his way out of a flipped RV with his pocket knife having about a 3" blade or so..
 
I have a Gerber Pack Axe mounted near my leg right next to the fire extinguisher. The cool thing about this axe is that it has a straight knife mounted in the axe handle...two for one.
 
You know - we're probably much more likely to get pinned in a car on the side of the highway. Do we put as much thought into how we'd get out of that in the event of an accident?

I don't know - seems like it you could carry all sorts of "extracation devices." But, short of having the Jaws of Life and a full time EMT to ride with us, nature is just as likely of finding a way to trap us as we are anticipating all the ways to get out.
 
Isnt the issue here speed?

In my RV8 what I'm concerned with is flipping and getting out quickly. Sure I can carve my way out with a belt buckle given enough time. What I want to do is get out FAST, especially with fuel leaking all over.

2 experienced pilots died a horrific death in an RV6 two days ago from an aborted takeoff post crash fire, and from what I heard (I have not seen photos) the airframe was far from a crumpled mess.

Tim
 
Don't use a gun

A couple of reasons for not carrying a gun. 1) If you tried to shoot out the canopy and there was a fuel leak, you might now have other problems. 2) What if you fly into a secure airport and get ramp checked? "Lucy, you've got some 'splain'n tudu." I'm pro gun and occasionally carry one if I know my flight is not going to take me into a TSA secured airport.

Best bet is the Gerber tool or the co-pilot stick deally.
 
Now that's one I hadn't thought of...

I never even considered flying into a TSA secure airport! In fact, I wouldn't have even thought of TSA simply because I don't expect to go through the same security screenings as commercial flight passengers go through.

So here's the dumb question to follow the dumb statement... If I fly into an airport, how do I know that it has a weapon ban?

Jeez! Whatever happened to the Right to Bear Arms? (This is still RV related, right?)
 
Never mind the airports. States, counties and cities have their own rules regarding the transportation of firearms, especially handguns, within and across their borders.
 
RV7Guy said:
2) What if you fly into a secure airport and get ramp checked? "Lucy, you've got some 'splain'n tudu." I'm pro gun and occasionally carry one if I know my flight is not going to take me into a TSA secured airport.

Best bet is the Gerber tool or the co-pilot stick deally.
Click to expand...

We fly people with guns out of TSA'd airports all the time. Generally, RVs through biz jets don't go to the airline terminal/SIDA area. ;)
 
I've got a small, cheap hatchet with a pry end and hammer head. Cost less than $10, also that window cracker hammer won't be effective on plexi, you'll need something with some mass to be most effective.

My .02 worth.

Glenn Wilkinson
 
Gun

I am from a country that wont allow even the thought of carrying a handgun in the plane...but...are you really serious?
Really if you are trying to get out of a bad situation, potential injury, potential fuel leak...is pulling a dirty harry a good idea? If you divert to our side of the border due to weather etc...your in a huge mess of trouble if you get caught packing a handgun.

Flying back country I can see it as a survival tool, but as an evacuation tool...no way. YMMV.
 
Boeing issue crash axe vs plexi canopy-no match

Be thinking Boeing issue crash axe or similar like we have on the big airplane. Would work far better than the tiny scissors, multi-tools, etc., that TSA is so ready to confiscate.
 
What about just sliding open the canopy before touch down?

What about just sliding open the canopy before touch down? I guess I always thought this would be the way I would handle a forced landing on an unhospitable surface. I mean, if the chances are that you're going to crash or flip over, who cares if you might possibly unintentionally jettison the canopy with this maneuver?
 
SmittysRV said:
Escape Kit
Click to expand...

I got this one free from somewhere and keep it in my between the seat arm rest. It cuts seat belt too. The question is whether I can get to it when I need it. I will unlatch the canopy on the way down if I have time. Canopy will not pop open (open at most 2 inches) in flight. So there is no worry that the open canopy will create unwanted drag or disturbance.

By the way, if you forgot to latch your canopy on take off, don't try to close it until you are leveled off. You will be able to close it (I did it) and other than wind and noise it will not cause problem. At least one RV9A crashed when the pilot tried to hold on the canopy with one hand while returning to land.
 
ArVeeNiner said:
I mean, if the chances are that you're going to crash or flip over, who cares if you might possibly unintentionally jettison the canopy with this maneuver?
Click to expand...
This is something that always comes up during these discussions. The problem with this is that the (closed) canopy offers a great deal of protection to the occupants during the crash sequence. With the canopy open or removed, you are far more exposed to the outside world (rocks, tree branches etc) and more likely to be injured/ rendered unconscious during the rollover event.
 
sprucemoose said:
This is something that always comes up during these discussions. The problem with this is that the (closed) canopy offers a great deal of protection to the occupants during the crash sequence. With the canopy open or removed, you are far more exposed to the outside world (rocks, tree branches etc) and more likely to be injured/ rendered unconscious during the rollover event.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. Better to leave the canopy on/closed and deal with the aftermath of the landing than to be knocked unconscious/killed in the landing and have no chance to deal with the aftermath.

There are always arguments to be made on the other side*, but I think this is generally the best option.

* One of the old anti-seatbelt arguments was that if you didn't wear a seatbelt, you might be thrown clear of a wreck and survive the fire/rollover/whatever. That's true in about .0001% of the cases.
 
DakotaHawk said:
I have read many ideas about canopy busters, and the difficulty of use if injured, hanging on the straps, etc. Since I'm getting pretty close to flying my -7 (if I could just find hanger space), I was giving this some thought.

Why not pack a small pistol. If you need to crack the plexiglass, fire the gun! Heck, with a full clip you could just about carve a hole and kick your way out. The only downsides that I could think of was firing a gun in a small enclosed space (noise and smoke), and the possibility of igniting fumes if there's a fuel leak.

Waddya think?
Click to expand...

After the bullet goes through the plexiglass you might plug one of the nice guys that is rushing up to help you out of the mess. That probably would further ruin the day. :rolleyes:
 
Frankenstein tool

Am considering this emergency extricating device. The info was forwarded to me by my friend Mark... Local people here can get this in Ottawa from Lee Valley Tools. Will also double up as a hammer for pounding in my tiedown stakes, and the crowbar feature to help pull them out. If this won't get me out through the canopy (or rip through the aluminum:eek:), then I don't know what will.

Here in Canada, we often fly over large desolate heavily wooded areas, and we have future plans to fly in the Yukon and Alaska. This device should come in quite handy as part of the emergency kit.

I've looked at the seatbelt cutter/glass breaker devices (I actually have one), and am not convinced that it will work well with the canopies we have (might work OK with the tempered glass in cars).

Box Tool

88k3901s1b.jpg

Originally designed for opening and closing crates, this is a crudely made tool, yet ideal for rough work. We use these in our receiving and shipping department where tools are used for prying, chopping, nail pulling and hammering, whether or not they were designed for it. Luckily, this one is designed for all of those activities.
At 13-1/2" long, it weighs just under 2 lb. It has a through steel handle with hardwood scales (complete with spots of wood filler). A tough, ugly tool that is perfect for the person whose usual solution to a problem is to use a larger hammer. Also ideal for the person who tends to leave tools out in the rain. This one can't get much uglier.

Box Tool
88K39.01
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$10.50​
 
Almost like my axe...

...Alfio. Just be sure it's held down somehow, so it can't come crashing into you as the plane goes over.

Regards,
 
Jim F

I plan to carry a spring-loaded center punch like I have used throughout the building process. The device is known to shatter car windows and I assume it will do the same with plexi. I plan to give it a try on a scrap or someone else's canopy (only kidding)

They are available at any hardware store. The springing snap that happens when you press it against something seems to be more effective that jsut wacking away at the surface.
 
Jim F said:
I plan to carry a spring-loaded center punch like I have used throughout the building process. The device is known to shatter car windows and I assume it will do the same with plexi. I plan to give it a try on a scrap or someone else's canopy (only kidding)

They are available at any hardware store. The springing snap that happens when you press it against something seems to be more effective that jsut wacking away at the surface.
Click to expand...

I carried one in my firefighting gear for 25 years for exactly what you said - shattering car windows. Unfortunately, plexi doesn't shatter at all like a car window, so it won't work very well as a rescue tool.

Paul
 
Here's how the jet guys do it

canopybreaker.png


Perhaps some enterprising vendor or RV guy with a machine shop could tool up and produce a run of these? Or perhaps someone knows where they can be had as surplus?
 
big risk

DakotaHawk said:
I have read many ideas about canopy busters, and the difficulty of use if injured, hanging on the straps, etc.
Why not pack a small pistol.
Waddya think?
Click to expand...

Two big risks:
1. Lots of (very Democratic) places don't like you to have a pistol, especially a loaded one. Jail time. Aircraft impoundment.
2. Where do the bullets go when you shoot them through the canopy? Do the rescuers catch them in their teeth?

I like the pointy removable copilot's stick. I also like the emergency checklist that says unlatch the canopy when the airspeed us under 70mph.

G.
 
born2fly said:
I like the pointy removable copilot's stick. I also like the emergency checklist that says unlatch the canopy when the airspeed us under 70mph.
Click to expand...

I decided to make my joystick permanent, after someone else's became dislodged and jammed against the instrument panel.

Personally, I think I'd rather leave the canopy locked. It might stay in place and offer some extra protection if the landing is somewhat inverted.

I have a small, but weighty ax.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
canopy escape

I personally have zip tied a 90 degree sheet metal cutter on my right. The 90 degree angle of the cutter acts not only as a sharp hole puncher, but also a cutter, and if I need it I just rip it away from the zip tie.
On my left side is a folding serrated saw just as a "plan B".
A typical glass buster won't be effective on flexible plexiglass - those are for automobile safety glass.
 
How about working on the 360 degree flip...just before your about to touch down shove the stick full forward and execute the RV-A 360 front flip, landing on the gear in the upright postion...it works better with the "A" models but can be done with the taildraggers. I think a bunch of the problems with the landing on the back are due to poor technique. Like blowing a nice dive...work on the follow through and impact so no one gets hurt..of course this is all tongue in cheek. I've used a very similar product to the anvil on lexan and plexi. First thing is to realize that you may not be able to function mentally and physically. Hopefully there will be many helpful hands around, And I hope there is someone to stop the lunatic with the prop getting ready to end your suffering ala Waldo Pepper before he gets a chance to do so...;)
 
I don't see much mention of "Seat belt cutting" is these post? I have been stuck Inverted (Off road in a truck) and the weight of my body hanging on the belts (4-way harness) made unbuckling somewhat hard! I did have a nice sharp knife with me, and fortunately I didn't have to cut thru my harness, But if It was an emergengy (Fire) I wouldn't hesitate!
 
I know this is a bit off topic but have wondered if when making an emergency landing you could ground loop the plane if the surface didn't feel right to keep it off its back. Fortunately, I have never been in this situation and probably things happen too fast but with planning ahead it may be possible.
What do you think? Especially you guys with experience.

Glenn Wilkinson
 
I had a small hammer looking tool made for automotive escape with a very sharp point and a seatbelt slicer on the back side. I think my daughter got it for me from Red Envelope. A couple people have said these are for cars and won't work on plexi, but I wonder if they've tried it. I did. It shattered the plexi like a piece of plate glass in large pieces. I used plexi left over from my kit and had it firmly clamped to my work bench. It's not very heavy and I didn't swing it that hard. I think the key is the hard, sharp point. The Life Hammer as mentioned earlier is about like the one I had. I think the spring-loaded punch would work also, but you can't cut yourself free from your seatbelt with it.

Scott
RV-6 - sold, along with my escape hammer.....
RV-8 FB
 
MNForrest said:
Never mind the airports. States, counties and cities have their own rules regarding the transportation of firearms, especially handguns, within and across their borders.
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Without getting into whether carrying a gun would be useful, safe or smart, there is a federal law that protects you here.

I mention this not to start or revive a debate on guns in the cockpit: folks just need to know that concern about local laws isn't a reason to not carry one.

You may carry a gun through any jurisdiction in the U.S. as long as it is unloaded and in a locked container other than a glove compartment. This includes stops that are incidental to your travel. So you could have a gun in your plane during a fuel stop in Washington, D.C., for example. The one thing you need to be sure of is that you may lawfully possess the gun at your final destination because the Federal statute stops protecting you when your travel ends. The statute is 18 U.S.C. 926A.
 
bkilby said:
I'm surprised none of the engineers have built an ejection seat yet!! :D
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Or engineered a floor jack into the baggage compartment. If you flip just crank the handle fifty times and crawl out. It couldn't add more than 50 or 60 pounds to the plane.
 
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